verse 4:3 and polygamy
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Peace Samia
The punishment is 50 lashes, half of what is commanded in 242.
Why? I mean why is this "sale" ?
My other question what would be the punishment if they were not married?
As for my understanding, it is in more than a thread (probably in this one, too), and you were part of the participants. Do you want me to undrstand that you were not reading other points of view?
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Dear warner
I think we(you, me, and samia etc) are probably way ahead of the past translators on the subject, so i don't expect you to just blindly quote translation of somebody and then build your case upon, how do you think that Ahsinna means marriage?
i say it once again , that a Fatayat of believing MMA does not become a MOhsinna because she is married, but is a MOhsinna now because she is kinda semi upgraded, she was a MMA who could be , or was being used as a sex slave with no compensation(ujoors),and with no inheritance for children ,(if any) to a level where she enters into a better contract with security.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
I was not quoting translators; if I quote, I post their name so I will not incur any copy right violations. It was my understanding. In this case many of the past translators were correct.
The first part of 425 explains the operation of marriage;marrying, paying dower correctly, in commitment, not being loose and not taking secret lovers.
Then the verse says ?fa iza_ uhsinna? . Now you tell me what it means.
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Dear warner
If we take 4-24,s mohsinnat as married women, then in all the other occurrences of Mohsinnats ; God is asking you to marry the married women , meaning , He is pressing for polyandry.
The contradictions are absolutely drastic. Try and give a willing "try"to my theory, or may be try and improve upon it , i think, that would be "the path "which will leads us out of this riddle.
siki
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Can I just say something? It doesn
t really have to do with the quran, matters of translation etc. But it seems to me that polygamy (polyandry, call it what you will MUST be allowed in very LIMITED circumstances. This is because, as far as I know, at any given time, the ratio of men to women is more or less equal. Lets not forget that the quran provides a WORLD view. More male babies are born than female ones, but more male babies tend to die than female ones (males are physiologically weaker than females) so that at around 1-5 years of age, the ratio of males to females becomes more or less equal. In peacetime in any nation, the ratio of males to females is equal. During wartime, females may slightly outnumber men for obvious reasons but at no point does the female population become DOUBLE, let alone triple or quadruple, than that of men. If polygamy (or polyandry) were allowed in all circumstances (and assuming a man can marry upto 4 women) then the ratio of women to men should have been 41 !!! Otherwise, you are promoting the view that only a minority of men can marry (for they will be marrying the women that make up other men`s "share" so to speak, and the rest have to do without marriage.The fact is that the population of women only exceeds that of men by a slight degree in times of war etc. It doesn`t even become DOUBLE that of men, in which scenario men could marry up to TWO women and not more than that, let alone become triple or more!
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Peace Samia
Does the verse say ?she fa iza_ uhsinna??? It doesn?t.
It is obvious from the other uses of HShN in the Quraan ?ahsanat farajaha? means protecting the private parts or being chaste. That doesn?t mean every derivative of HShN should mean protect in the same sense. Marriage is an English word with different connotations. But I like to remind marriage is a legal protection. Also it is a protection against sin and protection against shame. Will you be happy if I use wedlock instead. Locks protect.
What do you think ?fa iza_ uhsinna? in 425 means? I can't recall seeing your explanation on this before.
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Salaam warner
It is the same verb, not just the same root. uhsinna is the passive of ahsana. And the quraan uses "hafizuun furuujahum" for "protecting their private parts, not "muhsinuun furajahum".
And if I may ask, what does marriage protect from? Sex outside marriage? No, it does not. Patience does, as per quraan. A brat is a brat and a righteous is a righteous, whether they get married or not. Otherwise some people wouldn't have invented open permission for polygamy and mut3a.
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Peace siki
?MohSanat? and ?fa iza_ uhsinna? are they same?
424 is not ?MohSanat? it is ?Mohsanat min al Nisa?.
Comparing ?Mohsanat min al Nisa? in 424 and ?Mohsanat al muminati? in 425 is like comparing the terms ?a good man? and ?a good Christian? or the terms ?a good man? and ?a good hunter?. The meaning of ?good? and the implication and the term varies accordingly.
A ?good Christian woman? and ?a Christian good woman? or rather ?a good woman among the Christians?. Do these two phrases have the same meaning? Is She a good Christian or a good woman or both?
Do not underestimate the Quranic logic. The terms in which MohSanat is used in the Quraan are similar to the different terms above, constructed using ?Good?.
Even though the word ?good? is present in every term the meaning is not the same.
What do you think ?fa iza_ uhsinna? means ?
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Peace Samia
Protect, guard, secure, preserve. Are they all same ? Why do you want Ha-Fa-Za and Ha-Sad-Nun to mean the same thing?
Words from both roots are used in the Quraan few times making the meanings quite clear.
In muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a)( 424 ) Muhsinina is shown in contrast to Musafinhina(Siin-Fa-Ha) meaning poured forth/out poured . Same contrast is repeated in 425 and 55.
What is poured forth is contrasted with what is locked in. I didn?t mean to say locked inside the house. I meant locked in commitment, legally. I thought you will prefer wed lock.
Other than the protection from shame it is the legal protection to co habit to have sex and to bring up children. Legal protection for ujoor, support, divorce and maintenance also legal protection for inheritance. Sex outside legal protection is covered in 415-16 and 242 upwards.
There is open permission for polygamy in the Quraan , I thought this debate is on that.
I still like to know what ?fa iza_ uhsinna? in 425 means?
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Peace Siki
There is something I didnt consider important before,
425 does not say the MMA becomes or gets upgraded in to a Mohsanat. If the MMA becomes a MohSanat how can you punish her 50% of a MohSanat? Again an issue of logic and the quranic logic is fool proof.
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Peace Samia
Protect, guard, secure, preserve. Are they all same ? Why do you want Ha-Fa-Za and Ha-Sad-Nun to mean the same thing?
Words from both roots are used in the Quraan few times making the meanings quite clear.
In muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a)( 424 ) Muhsinina is shown in contrast to Musafinhina(Siin-Fa-Ha) meaning poured forth/out poured . Same contrast is repeated in 425 and 55.
What is poured forth is contrasted with what is locked in. I didn?t mean to say locked inside the house. I meant locked in commitment, legally. I thought you will prefer wed lock.
Other than the protection from shame it is the legal protection to co habit to have sex and to bring up children. Legal protection for ujoor, support, divorce and maintenance also legal protection for inheritance. Sex outside legal protection is covered in 415-16 and 242 upwards.
There is open permission for polygamy in the Quraan , I thought this debate is on that.
I still like to know what ?fa iza_ using in 425 means?
Dear warner
i agre that in 4-24,4-25, and 5,5 , Musafiheen is used as a contrast,, but not in the same sense as you have stated. There is a subtle difference in the sense
This poured fourth ,, when used in the sense of sexuality , is lewdness, and the opposite is Chastity,
so i would say , that in the context of these verses, Chastity is the appropriate word , rather than locked in or protected
God is advising in the above verses ,
To seek the women mohsinnats( the ones who are not haram and are chaste) in a relation ship through ujoors, with a will and an honest desire to stay chaste , not regularising it to full fill their lusts or making it a secret liaison (with ujoors) for fornication.
Samia is right , the marriage does not lock in ,, According to my experience , Married individuals(both males and females) commit Fornication much more than singles. The individuals, who are God fearing, seek a regularised relationship so that they can Tame the testosterone surge ,and it becomes easy/possible for them to stay chaste
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
Marriage, wedlock, matrimony, nuptials. None of these words convey the meaning of sanctity in the legal union of a man and a woman . Marriage/wedlock explains only one aspect this union and in the Quran it is mentioned as zaw wajna_kaha_ /coming together or joined as partners/pairs (537).Even in the English language the lack of the honorable union is treated in a manner which reflects the sanctity of it.
honour 1 High respect, esteem, deferential admiration; an expression of this; glory, credit, reputation, good name. ME. b spec. The chastity or purity of a woman; a woman's reputation for this. LME.
shame 2 a Disgrace, loss of esteem or reputation; an instance of this. OE. b Infliction of disgrace or injury; expression of reproach in language or behaviour. Freq. in do a person shame below. ME-E17. c spec. A woman's loss of chastity or a violation of her honour. Now chiefly in child of shame, a child born to an unmarried woman. arch.
From the Oxford Dictionary, I have not included all the meanings for both words.
If you find a word in English that will explain this aspect of the union between a man and a woman I guess it will be probably honorable or something close. A woman becomes honorable by protecting her body from men out side of her marriage. Possibly the reason for the Bible to say.
Marriage is said to be "honourable" (Heb. 134),
Coming back your question, take the example of Employment or labor laws which protects employee rights, mainly. Pay, statutory deductions, leave, Hours of work, termination, discrimination, Human rights and health and safety, etc. Sometimes we find employers who violate these laws. But that does not mean the employment laws do not protect. Even consumer protection, freedom of expression or human rights; all these laws offer protection. If it was not for the legal protection how will you seek redress in case of breach? Any system of protection legal or otherwise is not 100 % guaranteed. But imagine a world without employment laws or consumer protection.
Marriage provides legal protection.
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Peace Siki
Marriage provides legal protection.
Dear warner
I am sorry , i could only understand your last line.
Yes marriage provides legal protection ,,, only ,,and that is what i am saying , it does not protect her/him from lewdness/fornication after being in wedlock. Her / his lust is not locked or deactivated ( rather quite often it is Activated). But now, she/he has an instrument to handle it , and the ones who are seeking to follow God's message will be able to protect them selves from Fhahisha (will manage to remain chaste)
That is why these verses depict a sense, which is, "a desire to remain chaste with the help of an honorable arranged/announced bond", in contrast to uncontrolled sexuality
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
You got to understand labor law and consumer protection brother,they can be useful in life.
Siki "a desire to remain chaste with the help of an honorable arranged/announced bond",
Which verse is this?
You have forgotten the ujoor and if this is 425 you have not included few other
clauses.And after the ?desire to remain Chaste? if one partner commits Fahisha can the other seek legal remedy?
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Dear warner
Peace Sik
Which verse is this?
5-5
yousaf ali,
,,,,,,, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith,,,,Peace Siki
And after the desire to remain Chaste if one partner commits Fahisha can the other seek legal remedy?
The Quranic /legal remedies for committing fahisha, are the same for partners as well as singles.
Peace Siki
You got to understand labor law and consumer protection brother,they can be useful in life.
They are practically useless/non existent, where i live.
Peace Siki
You have forgotten the ujoor and if this is 425 you have not included few other
clauses.Brother ! i ain't dissecting the verses, literally,, we have done that many a times in these threads.
i am just trying to analyse the sense precisely, which almighty is trying to convey, and i am surprised that you are not getting it.
peace
siki
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Dear Siki
Siki The Quranic /legal remedies for committing fahisha, are the same for partners as well as singles.
The rules are different for single and married.
As for Fahisha 415 -17 deals with single and 242 is for married. Husband can take away part of the ujoor in case of Fahisha.
But why only Fahisha ?
There are many verses dealing with husband and wife which are not applicable to singles.
Can the boyfriend do what is done in 246-9
Can single claim inheritance from their boy friends.
How about claiming maintenance from boy friend.The legal union between a man and a woman has both the legal protection and the protection from shame. A woman protected from such shame is sometimes referred to as chaste. This is the reason I tried to drill in to you both tha "marriage is honorable" and also the reversal of the same concept i.e. "the honorable relationship between a man and a woman is marriage".
Your mistake is you are trying to get the same meaning for every derivative of HShN.
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Dear Warner
I knew, this was coming when i decided, not to go into a detailed explanation of my answer.
while writing the relevent answer , i meant
If somebody engages in fornication , he/she if convicted will go through the prescribed punishment regardless weather she/he is married.
Of course i know the repercussion by the relatives, and he can be a husband or a father , or a brother,
she may be divorced , confined, (by fathers,or brothers), abandoned (thrown out) , or may be even killed , if she was here.Dear Siki
Your mistake is you are trying to get the same meaning for every derivative of HShN.
No , i am not taking every occurrence of "Hassan" in the same meaning , i am trying to thrash out the most suitable meaning in the context of a verse, and trying to make you understand the correct sense of the word used in the relevent verses.
Brother i shall make another attempt!
The marriage bond protects, no doubts about it, the protection is broad , and covers multiple aspects, ( which i do not want to list, because i expect an average reader to be aware of them)
But here in the context of these verses(4-24,4-25, 5-5) the particular protection which is highlighted is management of ones sexuality, as the "hassana" is used in contrast with lewdness, and hence this particular sub protection turns out to be Chastity.Brother think once again , How does a wed lock protect a women/ man from committing fornication?
Does it disable their sexuality mechanically?
Tell me ! what gets disabled for a married individual in a sexual context , in comparison to a single?
peace
siki