GIVE ME A BREAK!
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First my let me state, I will not answer a question regarding a statement you made, that was in refuttal to Ironsky,.. that was completely irrelevant. While you may find your example of Christians or Jews or whatever being extreme as some sort of relevancy, I believe you are out of context, and took a simple statement of faith on behalf of IronSky and changed it in to determining whether someone really is a believer or an extremist, and how that comprimies their judgement. This is not a topic that I am discussing at this point.
Here is the relevance... IronSky clearly implied that being FOR God would not stop one thinking clearly AND he asked if this was wrong. I simply pointed out it was not wrong necessarily and gave an example in which it could be. He never commented on it directly. This is usually a sign of admission.
Also, You can challenge me all you want, I am not so arrogant as to always try and disprove you. I will rise to the challenge, but I will not always, I am not here to prove anything to you. And I don't want to waste my time doing so, all the time.
Thanks for stating you cannot (or rather, will not) answer some of the questions put to you. Forum members can clearly read this thread and see which members answered questions put to them and who did not, who brought supporting evidence and who did not etc.
I will get back with you on this challenge in due time.
I look forward to your reply in "due time".
So wakas you gave an example of extremists being clouded in their judgement, what about extreme scepticism, it seems to be clouding yours.
So you admit these extremists were clouded in judgement, ergo, an example of being FOR God clouding judgement.
Lastly, like progod said, there is a difference between "skepticism" and "analyzing". Lets stick to evidenced comments and not what "seems" to be the case.
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Peace honor,
yes you are right - in your set of thinking. Other people have a different approach and they too are right. It all depends the definition you start from.
IMO the message inspired by god (or would you prefer allah) is for humankind. It teaches a certain kind of behavior to be adopted so that we can strive for peace in this lowly life. The people that take the word in their original meaning might be closer to the truth than those that try to follow what man made of it.
Sorry if i shock you, but islam ; even though i still call it islam (as i'm used to it), is for me a state of mind more than an organized religion. Actually, what people usually call islam is not something i believe in. I still use the words though, because i hope that i can make people understand what islam could be...
But why is the choice of words so important to you? Others have a different approach and chose to translate, they too have their good reasons, and i do not think it is because they are ashamed of or afraid to say what they believe in.elke
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But why is the choice of words so important to you? Others have a different approach and chose to translate, they too have their good reasons, and i do not think it is because they are ashamed of or afraid to say what they believe in.
Exactly, Elke, I don't mind people calling themselves Muslims and criticizing my views, but I don't like it when people assume others' intentions ("they're just following their lowly desires...they're ashamed...they care more about what people think than following God..etc).
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Exactly, Elke, I don't mind people calling themselves Muslims and criticizing my views, but I don't like it when people assume others' intentions ("they're just following their lowly desires...they're ashamed...they care more about what people think than following God..etc).
I believe this all was started with the post regarding the divisive nature of the word "Muslim", how it makes other people uncomfortable, as one of the reasons. I agree, the meaning associated, the substance of it, of the nature of the individual is far more important than what words he/she associates with, I know people who attest that they're Muslims, follow Islam, but from my understanding of Islam, they seem to have transgressed.
Just because you can call yourselves to be followers of whatever names you feel necessary does not mean that you should do it. Reasons for these actions must be justified, in my humble view, changing names, terms because of their perceived divisive nature, or in light of the reactions of others, is not a valid argument to do so. It is merely sugar coating words, trying to please others, conforming to their prejudices of the words.
Is there a real need to in the first place? Just because some words are of Arab origin aren't being translated, Islam, Quran, Muslim doesn't mean we should? There is unity in concept by sticking to these crucial words in Arabic. The estimated 1 Billion people who call themselves Muslims, they all understand that Allah means God, Tuhan, Boze, Got, Dieu, whatever it is in their respective languages but for these people there is also a kind of kinship, a brotherhood for all of them, as they all understand Allah, Muslim, Quran. It is a beautiful thing.
Because some people find a divisive nature of these words, suiting the prejudice of these words, would it not be better to challenge prejudicial preconceived notions of Islam, Muslims, the Quran by presenting our Quranist understanding of it. Using these very same words but without some of the perversions that is already being perpetuated in its name by the mainstream traditional Muslim beliefs and interpretations? We can show the world the misgivings of the Hadith, we can show them what Islam and the Quran is really about. Can we really do so if some of us have a such aversions identifying with these names? Choosing not to call themselves Muslims and their religion Islam, the book the Quran.
We read the same Quran as the Sunnis, Shias, Sufis read, would they identify with our understanding of this Holy book if we can't bear to use the same name as them? Preferring to call it, the great reading or what have you, even avoiding the word Muslims since this is just "too" divisive.
Hey, this is just me.
Rumi
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Salaam Phonix1
peace Rumi,
Thank you for taking the time to reply, but I think you missed my point. I just wanted say that I don't like people assuming others' intentions.Firstly , why is it that anyone expressing Views contrary to your own is missing the Point ? Please do not think that we are all that stupid not to know the meanings of "Quran , Islam , Muslims , Salaam " etc . They may be a Revelation to you , but not to me and the others who choose to use these Arabic Terms .
Secondly , what is the Compelling Reason or Reasons to changed these Arabic Terms into your Preferred actual meanings and what purpose would it serve by doing so ? You don't like people assuming others' intentions , but you are doing so yourself , infact you are doing much worse than that , you are assuming that those of us who preferred the Arabic terms such as mentioned
above do not understand the meanings of those Words . How much more Insulting can you be than to think that only you and the likes of you know the meaning of those words ? If your intention is to Educate People in this Forum , there are better ways of doing it .Finally , do you deal with Real People and Real Muslims in the Real world as you do in this Forum ? Do you have the Intestinal Fortitude to say to their Faces about this View of yours as expressed in this Forum ? Other Muslims and I deal with Real People and Real Muslims on a regular basis and what I said in this Forum I said to their faces . By the way , meanings do not always have to be Expressed , it can also be Implied without devaluing its substance .
Peace
almarh0m
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Ahmed, I can make the same comment about you, and it'll be equally invalid.
Like what exactly bro?
that I manipulate the religion like the sunni and the Quran aloners sects?
Salam
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That was completely out of order.
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That was completely out of order.
I was actually wondering , how she knew that we are self haters?
anyway bro if you are going to reply to me, after you do, please look at the total number of posts for you and myself, LOL
Salam
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Here is the relevance... IronSky clearly implied that being FOR God would not stop one thinking clearly AND he asked if this was wrong. I simply pointed out it was not wrong necessarily and gave an example in which it could be. He never commented on it directly. This is usually a sign of admission.
Thanks for stating you cannot (or rather, will not) answer some of the questions put to you. Forum members can clearly read this thread and see which members answered questions put to them and who did not, who brought supporting evidence and who did not etc.
I look forward to your reply in "due time".
So you admit these extremists were clouded in judgement, ergo, an example of being FOR God clouding judgement.
Lastly, like progod said, there is a difference between "skepticism" and "analyzing". Lets stick to evidenced comments and not what "seems" to be the case.
Salam Bro Wakas~
I hate how you say, forum members will clearly see who answered questions put to them and who did not. This is so utterly immature and annoying comment of yours. Do you really think I care, how or what others think of me here, because I do not have the time to constantly justify, prove and respond to all of your arguments?? GIVE ME A BREAK! If I have the time...I will. When I want. Get it? I like to take my time, especially when asked about historical facts, etc. roots of words, meanings etc. Also, you should know something about me, I dont care what you prove about the title of a muslim, whether or not it is proper to actually call ourselves of this. Even if you have valid points, some of which you and others like Ayman do, doesn't mean that I agree...it just means that you have some valid points. I will always call myself a muslim, because I believe this is what feels good to me, and this is what we should call ourselves. I think, that too many people are trying to find excuses to change names...and I don't feel comfortable with that. I stated my reasons why, and if you refute them, dont accept them, you have every right not to, its your right to believe what you want. This is not a argument to come to a final decision. I simply put my opinion out there for people to know what I think and believe, I am not here to spend all my time arguing about it.
Honor
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Peace honor
I will always call myself a muslim, because I believe this is what feels good to me, and this is what we should call ourselves.
This is exactly where the problem lies. It's ok if it feels good to you do so ( i do as well btw) but the second part of the sentence is just not right. It comes back to saying, if it feels good to me, this is the way it should be. hail
lk
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Salam Elke~
I understand what you are saying, but just as bro Wakas, thinks we should not call ourselves muslim, I Think WE all should. Whether you do or not, that is your right. But I am not saying that we should because I just think that, I said earlier along time ago in the post, my reasons why. I supported them with ayats. Its not a matter of me, thinking everyone should follow what I think, its a matter of what I see in the Quran. I was referring to the Quran. But others here, like to justify why we should'nt. I say if the meaning of a muslim, means peaceful one, why not say the word of the meaning? Would you say to someone..." I am drinking squeezed oranges? Or, I am drinking orange juice?" Would you say "I am a republican, Or , I am a person who belives in the Separation of powers and balance of powers, I believe that making law is the province of the legislature and that judges, especially the Supreme Court, should not "legislate from the bench." I believe that it is the right of judges to interpret the constitution and judge actions by the legislative or executive branches as legal or unconstitutional."
This of course, is my perception. Others do not have to call thereselves muslims, But I will. And I know that I am not using it as a label, nor am I more attached to the word,more than I am the meaning. I am a very strong believer, and I practice what I believe.
Honor
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Peace honor
This is exactly where the problem lies. It's ok if it feels good to you do so ( i do as well btw) but the second part of the sentence is just not right. It comes back to saying, if it feels good to me, this is the way it should be. hail
lk
Come on, don't twist her words, I doubt that's what she meant to say, I think all of you know full well this isn't based purely on her feelings, her reasons aren't that "it feels good to her, so it should be".
From my point of view, the real problem with all of this lies with what almarh0m has pointed out.
Salaam Phonix1
what is the Compelling Reason or Reasons to change these Arabic Terms into your Preferred actual meanings and what purpose would it serve by doing so ?
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Peace "almarh0m",
Salaam JK
Since you are good at maths , could you tell me which Word in the Quran which is The Middle / Center of It ( Quran ) please ? Your Version and 9128-129 inclusive please ? My 12 year old boy has been asking me about this and I promised him that I'll find out from the Brothers and Sisters in the Forum for him .
Thanks a Million JK
Cheers
JK- Ive never checked tht before. I need some time to check on this. GOD Bless!
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Firstly , why is it that anyone expressing Views contrary to your own is missing the Point ? Please do not think that we are all that stupid not to know the meanings of "Quran , Islam , Muslims , Salaam " etc . They may be a Revelation to you , but not to me and the others who choose to use these Arabic Terms .
peace, almarh0m.
I never said you were missing the point, did I?
I never said that you were stupid. Where is this coming from? confusedSecondly , what is the Compelling Reason or Reasons to changed these Arabic Terms into your Preferred actual meanings and what purpose would it serve by doing so ? You don't like people assuming others' intentions , but you are doing so yourself , infact you are doing much worse than that , you are assuming that those of us who preferred the Arabic terms such as mentioned
above do not understand the meanings of those Words . How much more Insulting can you be than to think that only you and the likes of you know the meaning of those words ? If your intention is to Educate People in this Forum , there are better ways of doing it .We disagree on what the word means. I may have been trying to show why I think a certain word has a certain meaning. If I did appear patronizing, then I apologize. But if what I said was educational, I suppose I deserve a "thank you?" And I think one more point I may have made was that with titles, the meaning is not important. So, I did say that you maybe don't care that much about the meaning, but that hardly implies that you are too dumb.
Finally , do you deal with Real People and Real Muslims in the Real world as you do in this Forum ? Do you have the Intestinal Fortitude to say to their Faces about this View of yours as expressed in this Forum ? Other Muslims and I deal with Real People and Real Muslims on a regular basis and what I said in this Forum I said to their faces . By the way , meanings do not always have to be Expressed , it can also be Implied without devaluing its substance .
No, I've never met any real people in my life. I usually converse with plastic dolls and action figures. And I don't have an intestine, let alone a strong one. I have a glass tube that connects my stomach to my anus. It's very brittle. Maybe I'll send you some pics. And when me and my dolls talk, we don't use words at all! We communicate using pictures. We draw on white boards using markers. Actually, the dolls can't draw, so I draw it for them, so I'm pretty much talking to myself. Oh, and last night, I was abducted by aliens. I think they were real, but you don't think aliens are people, are they?
and if you, in your first sentence, were referring to my reply to Rumi, let me explain...
I said that we must not assume others intentions because we don't know them. And for some reason he went on about why one of the reasons for translating the word is wrong. Or maybe I didn't understand his post. But I thought it was the other way around, so I mentioned it. -
Dear Samia,
955 (radadnaa)
995 (awhaa lahaa)
1013 &10 (maa adraaka)
1016 &8 (thaqulat & khaffat)I will get you some more examples as well as examples from grammar books. This is an old Arabic feature however, and is not used in MSA at all, excpet with qualifying words and in certain phrases yaa laita, idhaa, law, in etc.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Come on, don't twist her words, I doubt that's what she meant to say, I think all of you know full well this isn't based purely on her feelings, her reasons aren't that "it feels good to her, so it should be".
From my point of view, the real problem with all of this lies with what almarh0m has pointed out.
??? come on, i don't twist her words, but that is what it finally comes down to. About what almarh0m has pointed out what's wrong with a translation ? It is not a question of i drink orange juice or i drink squeezed oranges. Muslim is an arabic word which can be translated, it is a description of someone who is peaceful. It became a title because men made it one. I insist, i use it myself, but leave the people alone - a "give me a break" thread on this, is just a useless attack and a lack of tolerance. And i don't like attacks for nothing. That why i also state, that i do not appreciate Aaron's posts above - even though i see the truth in it - they are just attacks, and they are under the belt.
So rumi, if you want to "come on" someone, you chose the wrong person.
Peace elke
