GIVE ME A BREAK!
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Exactly, Elke, I don't mind people calling themselves Muslims and criticizing my views, but I don't like it when people assume others' intentions ("they're just following their lowly desires...they're ashamed...they care more about what people think than following God..etc).
I believe this all was started with the post regarding the divisive nature of the word "Muslim", how it makes other people uncomfortable, as one of the reasons. I agree, the meaning associated, the substance of it, of the nature of the individual is far more important than what words he/she associates with, I know people who attest that they're Muslims, follow Islam, but from my understanding of Islam, they seem to have transgressed.
Just because you can call yourselves to be followers of whatever names you feel necessary does not mean that you should do it. Reasons for these actions must be justified, in my humble view, changing names, terms because of their perceived divisive nature, or in light of the reactions of others, is not a valid argument to do so. It is merely sugar coating words, trying to please others, conforming to their prejudices of the words.
Is there a real need to in the first place? Just because some words are of Arab origin aren't being translated, Islam, Quran, Muslim doesn't mean we should? There is unity in concept by sticking to these crucial words in Arabic. The estimated 1 Billion people who call themselves Muslims, they all understand that Allah means God, Tuhan, Boze, Got, Dieu, whatever it is in their respective languages but for these people there is also a kind of kinship, a brotherhood for all of them, as they all understand Allah, Muslim, Quran. It is a beautiful thing.
Because some people find a divisive nature of these words, suiting the prejudice of these words, would it not be better to challenge prejudicial preconceived notions of Islam, Muslims, the Quran by presenting our Quranist understanding of it. Using these very same words but without some of the perversions that is already being perpetuated in its name by the mainstream traditional Muslim beliefs and interpretations? We can show the world the misgivings of the Hadith, we can show them what Islam and the Quran is really about. Can we really do so if some of us have a such aversions identifying with these names? Choosing not to call themselves Muslims and their religion Islam, the book the Quran.
We read the same Quran as the Sunnis, Shias, Sufis read, would they identify with our understanding of this Holy book if we can't bear to use the same name as them? Preferring to call it, the great reading or what have you, even avoiding the word Muslims since this is just "too" divisive.
Hey, this is just me.
Rumi
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Salaam Phonix1
peace Rumi,
Thank you for taking the time to reply, but I think you missed my point. I just wanted say that I don't like people assuming others' intentions.Firstly , why is it that anyone expressing Views contrary to your own is missing the Point ? Please do not think that we are all that stupid not to know the meanings of "Quran , Islam , Muslims , Salaam " etc . They may be a Revelation to you , but not to me and the others who choose to use these Arabic Terms .
Secondly , what is the Compelling Reason or Reasons to changed these Arabic Terms into your Preferred actual meanings and what purpose would it serve by doing so ? You don't like people assuming others' intentions , but you are doing so yourself , infact you are doing much worse than that , you are assuming that those of us who preferred the Arabic terms such as mentioned
above do not understand the meanings of those Words . How much more Insulting can you be than to think that only you and the likes of you know the meaning of those words ? If your intention is to Educate People in this Forum , there are better ways of doing it .Finally , do you deal with Real People and Real Muslims in the Real world as you do in this Forum ? Do you have the Intestinal Fortitude to say to their Faces about this View of yours as expressed in this Forum ? Other Muslims and I deal with Real People and Real Muslims on a regular basis and what I said in this Forum I said to their faces . By the way , meanings do not always have to be Expressed , it can also be Implied without devaluing its substance .
Peace
almarh0m
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Ahmed, I can make the same comment about you, and it'll be equally invalid.
Like what exactly bro?
that I manipulate the religion like the sunni and the Quran aloners sects?
Salam
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That was completely out of order.
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That was completely out of order.
I was actually wondering , how she knew that we are self haters?
anyway bro if you are going to reply to me, after you do, please look at the total number of posts for you and myself, LOL
Salam
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Here is the relevance... IronSky clearly implied that being FOR God would not stop one thinking clearly AND he asked if this was wrong. I simply pointed out it was not wrong necessarily and gave an example in which it could be. He never commented on it directly. This is usually a sign of admission.
Thanks for stating you cannot (or rather, will not) answer some of the questions put to you. Forum members can clearly read this thread and see which members answered questions put to them and who did not, who brought supporting evidence and who did not etc.
I look forward to your reply in "due time".
So you admit these extremists were clouded in judgement, ergo, an example of being FOR God clouding judgement.
Lastly, like progod said, there is a difference between "skepticism" and "analyzing". Lets stick to evidenced comments and not what "seems" to be the case.
Salam Bro Wakas~
I hate how you say, forum members will clearly see who answered questions put to them and who did not. This is so utterly immature and annoying comment of yours. Do you really think I care, how or what others think of me here, because I do not have the time to constantly justify, prove and respond to all of your arguments?? GIVE ME A BREAK! If I have the time...I will. When I want. Get it? I like to take my time, especially when asked about historical facts, etc. roots of words, meanings etc. Also, you should know something about me, I dont care what you prove about the title of a muslim, whether or not it is proper to actually call ourselves of this. Even if you have valid points, some of which you and others like Ayman do, doesn't mean that I agree...it just means that you have some valid points. I will always call myself a muslim, because I believe this is what feels good to me, and this is what we should call ourselves. I think, that too many people are trying to find excuses to change names...and I don't feel comfortable with that. I stated my reasons why, and if you refute them, dont accept them, you have every right not to, its your right to believe what you want. This is not a argument to come to a final decision. I simply put my opinion out there for people to know what I think and believe, I am not here to spend all my time arguing about it.
Honor
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Peace honor
I will always call myself a muslim, because I believe this is what feels good to me, and this is what we should call ourselves.
This is exactly where the problem lies. It's ok if it feels good to you do so ( i do as well btw) but the second part of the sentence is just not right. It comes back to saying, if it feels good to me, this is the way it should be. hail
lk
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Salam Elke~
I understand what you are saying, but just as bro Wakas, thinks we should not call ourselves muslim, I Think WE all should. Whether you do or not, that is your right. But I am not saying that we should because I just think that, I said earlier along time ago in the post, my reasons why. I supported them with ayats. Its not a matter of me, thinking everyone should follow what I think, its a matter of what I see in the Quran. I was referring to the Quran. But others here, like to justify why we should'nt. I say if the meaning of a muslim, means peaceful one, why not say the word of the meaning? Would you say to someone..." I am drinking squeezed oranges? Or, I am drinking orange juice?" Would you say "I am a republican, Or , I am a person who belives in the Separation of powers and balance of powers, I believe that making law is the province of the legislature and that judges, especially the Supreme Court, should not "legislate from the bench." I believe that it is the right of judges to interpret the constitution and judge actions by the legislative or executive branches as legal or unconstitutional."
This of course, is my perception. Others do not have to call thereselves muslims, But I will. And I know that I am not using it as a label, nor am I more attached to the word,more than I am the meaning. I am a very strong believer, and I practice what I believe.
Honor
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Peace honor
This is exactly where the problem lies. It's ok if it feels good to you do so ( i do as well btw) but the second part of the sentence is just not right. It comes back to saying, if it feels good to me, this is the way it should be. hail
lk
Come on, don't twist her words, I doubt that's what she meant to say, I think all of you know full well this isn't based purely on her feelings, her reasons aren't that "it feels good to her, so it should be".
From my point of view, the real problem with all of this lies with what almarh0m has pointed out.
Salaam Phonix1
what is the Compelling Reason or Reasons to change these Arabic Terms into your Preferred actual meanings and what purpose would it serve by doing so ?
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Peace "almarh0m",
Salaam JK
Since you are good at maths , could you tell me which Word in the Quran which is The Middle / Center of It ( Quran ) please ? Your Version and 9128-129 inclusive please ? My 12 year old boy has been asking me about this and I promised him that I'll find out from the Brothers and Sisters in the Forum for him .
Thanks a Million JK
Cheers
JK- Ive never checked tht before. I need some time to check on this. GOD Bless!
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Firstly , why is it that anyone expressing Views contrary to your own is missing the Point ? Please do not think that we are all that stupid not to know the meanings of "Quran , Islam , Muslims , Salaam " etc . They may be a Revelation to you , but not to me and the others who choose to use these Arabic Terms .
peace, almarh0m.
I never said you were missing the point, did I?
I never said that you were stupid. Where is this coming from? confusedSecondly , what is the Compelling Reason or Reasons to changed these Arabic Terms into your Preferred actual meanings and what purpose would it serve by doing so ? You don't like people assuming others' intentions , but you are doing so yourself , infact you are doing much worse than that , you are assuming that those of us who preferred the Arabic terms such as mentioned
above do not understand the meanings of those Words . How much more Insulting can you be than to think that only you and the likes of you know the meaning of those words ? If your intention is to Educate People in this Forum , there are better ways of doing it .We disagree on what the word means. I may have been trying to show why I think a certain word has a certain meaning. If I did appear patronizing, then I apologize. But if what I said was educational, I suppose I deserve a "thank you?" And I think one more point I may have made was that with titles, the meaning is not important. So, I did say that you maybe don't care that much about the meaning, but that hardly implies that you are too dumb.
Finally , do you deal with Real People and Real Muslims in the Real world as you do in this Forum ? Do you have the Intestinal Fortitude to say to their Faces about this View of yours as expressed in this Forum ? Other Muslims and I deal with Real People and Real Muslims on a regular basis and what I said in this Forum I said to their faces . By the way , meanings do not always have to be Expressed , it can also be Implied without devaluing its substance .
No, I've never met any real people in my life. I usually converse with plastic dolls and action figures. And I don't have an intestine, let alone a strong one. I have a glass tube that connects my stomach to my anus. It's very brittle. Maybe I'll send you some pics. And when me and my dolls talk, we don't use words at all! We communicate using pictures. We draw on white boards using markers. Actually, the dolls can't draw, so I draw it for them, so I'm pretty much talking to myself. Oh, and last night, I was abducted by aliens. I think they were real, but you don't think aliens are people, are they?
and if you, in your first sentence, were referring to my reply to Rumi, let me explain...
I said that we must not assume others intentions because we don't know them. And for some reason he went on about why one of the reasons for translating the word is wrong. Or maybe I didn't understand his post. But I thought it was the other way around, so I mentioned it. -
Dear Samia,
955 (radadnaa)
995 (awhaa lahaa)
1013 &10 (maa adraaka)
1016 &8 (thaqulat & khaffat)I will get you some more examples as well as examples from grammar books. This is an old Arabic feature however, and is not used in MSA at all, excpet with qualifying words and in certain phrases yaa laita, idhaa, law, in etc.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Come on, don't twist her words, I doubt that's what she meant to say, I think all of you know full well this isn't based purely on her feelings, her reasons aren't that "it feels good to her, so it should be".
From my point of view, the real problem with all of this lies with what almarh0m has pointed out.
??? come on, i don't twist her words, but that is what it finally comes down to. About what almarh0m has pointed out what's wrong with a translation ? It is not a question of i drink orange juice or i drink squeezed oranges. Muslim is an arabic word which can be translated, it is a description of someone who is peaceful. It became a title because men made it one. I insist, i use it myself, but leave the people alone - a "give me a break" thread on this, is just a useless attack and a lack of tolerance. And i don't like attacks for nothing. That why i also state, that i do not appreciate Aaron's posts above - even though i see the truth in it - they are just attacks, and they are under the belt.
So rumi, if you want to "come on" someone, you chose the wrong person.
Peace elke
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and if you, in your first sentence, were referring to my reply to Rumi, let me explain...
I said that we must not assume others intentions because we don't know them. And for some reason he went on about why one of the reasons for translating the word is wrong.Where and when the bejesus did I ever tell you it was "wrong"?? All I did was just to post my reasons on why I think differently from you, they are still valid, you even haven't addressed them. Whatever the case is, I never said it was wrong or right, merely to present my case, in my view the argument for keeping the Arabic names far exceeds the argument for changing.
I said it in my reply to you, you can call yourselves whatever you want, whatever you feel like, hypothetically if you wanted to call yourself, follower of whatever, you definately can since I believe this is your right, by all means I won't stop you. But just because we can use any names we want, this does not mean we should. There needs to be valid concrete reasons for changing/translating names used. I've written in that post.
ALSO, read the first paragraph of my post, I was replying to you specifically how it's not really about assuming intentions, this whole issue /thread was started because someone says that using the word Muslim as divisive, I believe it was Saboushi in another thread. There was absolutely NO assuming intentions there. I even used his own words, "divisive". He has made his intentions known and clear, he would rather not choose to use the words Muslim since it's "divisive" in light of other peoples opinions and prejudices in the age we live in. I've written, if you even care to read again why this is not a valid reason to change the names, it is merely conforming to a set prejudice. Personally I'm not for that, I'd rather break these prejudices. Look, I'm repeating my points again!
Or maybe I didn't understand his post. But I thought it was the other way around, so I mentioned it.
almarh0m was right, just because I present my views, you arrogantly say I'm missing your point (I'm not daft, I know perfectly well what you're saying). Because I don't agree with you, does not mean I'm saying you're wrong, I'm trying to find truth. I've merely illustrated why and how I've derived my opinion on the matter.
If people don't want to use the names Islam, Muslim, Quran, as some are doing so, that's their choice, whether it's right or wrong, it's not my place to say and I haven't said so. I just want to examine the compelling reasons for such actions, I use words and explanations that have already been uttered on why some people choose to change the Arabic names, there was no assumption of intent there, intent has been shown, not on this particular thread but another.
I wonder who really is making the assumptions here?
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??? come on, i don't twist her words, but that is what it finally comes down to.
Yes, come on, you've brought down all her reasons to petty feelings. That's uncalled for, since she's presented her ideas based on more than just feelings.
What I'm trying to figure out is why you want to translate it in the first place? Merely because you can? Because it's simply in Arabic?? As almarh0m has pointed out, the meaning of Allah, Quran, Muslim has not been lost because it's in a different and foreign language. Also as I have pointed out, there is a unity of concept by having mankind using the same name, the Billion people who call themselves Muslim, know what Allah and the Quran is, the rest of humanity might have some kind of basic understanding.
It's not also a lack of tolerance, as I have said and possibly Honor too in a previous post. you're free to call yourselves whatever you want, use whatever name you want.
Peace, Rumi
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That why i also state, that i do not appreciate Aaron's posts above - even though i see the truth in it - they are just attacks, and they are under the belt.
the entire thread, the title itself, is an attack... so turnabout is fairplay, as they say
and of course if you see the truth in it you must therefore understand that truth itself is an attack on falsehood )
(i think i read somewhere that truth bashes falsehood P )i don't talk here much, but i figured i would throw in my two bits when people are crappin all over these guys who work their butts off to share this info with the world only to be called "self haters" and be accused of following their "lowly desires".
not my fault if people are attached to the sounds of words instead of the concepts which those words embody )
oh yeah, and i'm used to not being appreciated... fully expected anyways... i bash my head against brick walls purely because i enjoy the sound it makes inside my head brickwall P
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Salam All~
Since I am one who started this thread, let me say a few things to end it. First, I started it in refuation at my own opinion of SAbboushi's comments and others on his thread. Just as Rumi stated for me. Secondly, I am not trying to undercut or hit people below the belt, by sharing my opinion that I think calling oneself muslim is just. I gave all my reasons, which were not personal but ayats from the Quran as to why I have the perception of calling myself muslim, my religion Islam, my Book Quran. Elke, I am not mad or upset at you, and I do appreciate many of the people who work very hard to study translations as well as the Quran in deen, even when their perceptions or findings I disagree with. AaRon...I could honestly care less, if you thought that I was cutting people down, and so you wanted to give me a punch in spite. I didn't even notice. I made all my opinions on this matter, and I have nothing left to say on it. I am a muslim, who calls myself muslim, I practice Islam, what I name my religion,and I read the Quran, the name I have for the book I read. I do this, because I perceive it that way from the Quran, and It feels right to me. If others dont do the same, to each his own. I was only in defense for those that were trying to promote to all not to call ourselves muslim.
Peace be upon you all ...lets all get along now, and stop fighting, k? group
Honor