a challenge to quran aloners!!!
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peace JK,
how do you know that?God is merciful, right? how is he merciful if we will be put into hell for eternity?
Look at what satan tempts Adam with. They are all worldly things. Things we all want here on earht in this life. A person spending eternity in heaven will not be tempted by riches and imortality. That conversation is proof enough, I believe.
The quran also says that people can rise up from hell and go toward heaven.
And then there are the problems you mentioned, and the problems I mentioned earlier in the thread.
So there's considerable proof that jenna and jehannam are states of mind experienced right here on earth.
I will give you a link to Arnold's article about this. You should read it.
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
how do you know that?God is merciful, right? how is he merciful if we will be put into hell for eternity?
JK- I didnt say tht i believed hell is eternal, did i? Infact bro Edip has written a good article abt tht.
Look at what satan tempts Adam with. They are all worldly things. Things we all want here on earht in this life. A person spending eternity in heaven will not be tempted by riches and imortality. That conversation is proof enough, I believe.
JK- Hmmmm...ok meaning janna back then was a place on earth..ok.. tht can be accepted but not tht there wont be any new heaven/paradise after the day of judgement.
The quran also says that people can rise up from hell and go toward heaven.
JK- I didnt come across a direct verse mentioning this or maybe its coz of mistranslation. Could you kindly quote the verses? All ive read is tht everyone wld PASS by HELL and the believers and rifhteous would be protected from it.
And then there are the problems you mentioned, and the problems I mentioned earlier in the thread.
So there's considerable proof that jenna and jehannam are states of mind experienced right here on earth.
I will give you a link to Arnold's article about this. You should read it.
JK- Ive read Arnold's views on this but still cannot agree. I mean it is stated that paradise will have features like flowing rivers, wonderful fruits etc and likewise hell with a tree with the heads like tht of evil/wicked/satanic ones, hot boiling water etc. And even Arnold says after this universe another wld be created so obviously there would be features in there wont there? so i dont see any problem there at all? why should jenna n jehannam not be a new world emerging through evolutionary processes? GOD Bless!
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The question is Does Allah sent down new messages because the older ones were corrupted, or because Allah knows that times will change?
peace Yosemite,
Allow me to answer this question,
God doesn't send down messengers. People become messengers by searching the truth and making spiritual progress. They reach a point where they are divinely inspired, and they might decide to write that down in a book.Peace JK,
JK- Hmmmm...ok meaning janna back then was a place on earth..ok.. tht can be accepted but not tht there wont be any new heaven/paradise after the day of judgement.
As a scientist, you can't believe that there will be a physical heaven and hell, because there is no empirical evidence, and there's no reason to believe in it if you don't believe in the concept of the soul.
but I believe that there will be a paradise and a hell after death, but it is there before death too.JK- I didnt come across a direct verse mentioning this or maybe its coz of mistranslation. Could you kindly quote the verses? All ive read is tht everyone wld PASS by HELL and the believers and rifhteous would be protected from it.
I'll find the verse for you. It just says that the people who rise up from hell are great or something like that. It doesn't show whether hell is physical or not, but just that it's not eternal.
JK- Ive read Arnold's views on this but still cannot agree. I mean it is stated that paradise will have features like flowing rivers, wonderful fruits etc and likewise hell with a tree with the heads like tht of evil/wicked/satanic ones, hot boiling water etc. And even Arnold says after this universe another wld be created so obviously there would be features in there wont there? so i dont see any problem there at all? why should jenna n jehannam not be a new world emerging through evolutionary processes? GOD Bless!
Yes, but the descriptions are symbolic.
But the reason the physical heaven and hell arguments don't work is that physical pain can be overcome. It is all in our heads. Happiness and pain is not the result of objects, but the result of our own mindset. That's why different things make different people happy. What you may find disgusting, I find enjoyable.
Flowing rivers and wonderful fruits do not guarantee happiness. Well, I should say physical rivers and fruits. -
Peace bro "phoenix",
Peace JK,As a scientist, you can't believe that there will be a physical heaven and hell, because there is no empirical evidence, and there's no reason to believe in it if you don't believe in the concept of the soul.
but I believe that there will be a paradise and a hell after death, but it is there before death too.JK- You obviously havnt read the omega point theory or bro Arnold's scientific approach to the after life article http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0
other wise you wouldnt make the above claim. Moreover there is absolutely no requirement to beleive in a supernatural soul for the afterlife since it is a phenomena where stored information would be recovered and so would be the soul/cosciousness which is there due to certain neural combination in the brain anyways.I'll find the verse for you. It just says that the people who rise up from hell are great or something like that. It doesn't show whether hell is physical or not, but just that it's not eternal.
JK- I agree that hell is not eternal in an absolute sense since tht wont make sense but GOD has made the time of stay there a secret IMO inorder tht ppl not become lazy or less motivated in doing good. Brother Edip has also written an article on that.
Yes, but the descriptions are symbolic.
JK- Id say the descriptions are allegorical meaning they give appx comparisons to wht we already know which is necessary for the description of any new place which we havnt experienced yet. Thts wht allegory's all about.
But the reason the physical heaven and hell arguments don't work is that physical pain can be overcome. It is all in our heads. Happiness and pain is not the result of objects, but the result of our own mindset. That's why different things make different people happy. What you may find disgusting, I find enjoyable.
JK- Physical pain can only be overcome if those partcular neural activities forming it can be relaxed. if they are fixed in place, pain acnnot be overcome. As regards the relaivity of things there are certain things which cause pain and suffering to everone. Intense fire and heat for example make any human suffer and if the neural network is made even more sensitive to their recetion the suffering is even greater and yes last but not least its all in our heads but in hell theres no control, call it neural jam.
Flowing rivers and wonderful fruits do not guarantee happiness. Well, I should say physical rivers and fruits.
JK- True and hence the Quran mentions the greatest triumph is being near to GOD and tht He is satisfied with you and you as a response with Him. Rivers and fruits are mentioned to give an appx comparison so as to motivate people right from here using descoriptions of things we already know as i mentioned earlier. GOD Bless!
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peace JK
Why isn't God supernatural? There isn't any evidence that points only to a creator. It always depends on how you look at it. So there's no conclusive scientific proof of God.
You said that God is "everything." If that's what god is, then how does "everything" keep secrets and punish people. You even took this supernatural God out of the after life.
So please explain to me your concept of God?And doesn't the quran say that this world is an illusion?
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK
Why isn't God supernatural? There isn't any evidence that points only to a creator. It always depends on how you look at it. So there's no conclusive scientific proof of God.JK- As ive mentioned before the existence of GOD is inevitable if you define GOD by the Infinite Power Source, and not a finite being of any definit shape or size. You must have infinite intelligence to overcome infinite randomness initially. This is exactly what happened when we see how when we observe the universe back in time we see overall enthroopy increaing and then it amazingly decreases because of the physical constants which again have to be set with infinitesimal precision for the contructive allignment of individually infinite stream of particles(quatum particles). If you jump to the mutliverse theory, then the existence of GOD becomes all the more solid since now thered be infinite time if we compare from one universe to another and with infinite time infinite amount of intelligence has to assemble and what was the definition of GOD, Infinite Intelligence so there you go again. This conclusively proves His existence. I cant understand how ppl cannot realize this. But there is still much more evidence even from the scriptures which can prove the existence of one GOD with high probability. Just check otu the core statements of the Vedas, Bible and other religius books and youll find they all mention One god. Its only in the details tht religions have differed. At the core theyr exactly the same. This pattern which came about indepedently from different parts of the world, yet stating the same at the very core is also proof. Ive explained this over and over in many of my posts.
You said that God is "everything." If that's what god is, then how does "everything" keep secrets and punish people. You even took this supernatural God out of the after life.
So please explain to me your concept of God?And doesn't the quran say that this world is an illusion?
JK- I think ive explained it now above and as for the illusion part, tht is somehat misunderstood. Wht i now beleive this arabic term translated so means is tht this world is just temporary and we need to work hard in it and strive being righteous, not tht it is a world controlled by magical forces or so. GOD Bless!
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peace JK,
thanks for the reply.JK- As ive mentioned before the existence of GOD is inevitable if you define GOD by the Infinite Power Source, and not a finite being of any definit shape or size. You must have infinite intelligence to overcome infinite randomness initially. This is exactly what happened when we see how when we observe the universe back in time we see overall enthroopy increaing and then it amazingly decreases because of the physical constants which again have to be set with infinitesimal precision for the contructive allignment of individually infinite stream of particles(quatum particles).
But there are scientists who say that everything is random, and that because humans are good at finding patterns, we think everything is orderly. I think it's a matter of interpretation in the end. You can look at it as random or as orderly, but I don't think there is one concrete answer.
And I learned this in chemistry class last year, entropy tends to increaseJust check otu the core statements of the Vedas, Bible and other religius books and youll find they all mention One god. Its only in the details tht religions have differed. At the core theyr exactly the same. This pattern which came about indepedently from different parts of the world, yet stating the same at the very core is also proof.
That's very true. But again you can argue that there is something in the human psyche, an instinct sort of, that we end up believing htat. And the "one god" itself can have different interpretations. I dunno.
You can only scientifically prove (sort of) a diest God. A god that created the world and left it alone to be run by set laws. That kind of God wouldn't write books and send messengers and create miracles.
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Peace "phoenix",
hey you never called me bro in response. Makes me kinna sad '(peace JK,
thanks for the reply.But there are scientists who say that everything is random, and that because humans are good at finding patterns, we think everything is orderly. I think it's a matter of interpretation in the end. You can look at it as random or as orderly, but I don't think there is one concrete answer.
JK- No everything is definitely not random. Natural selection for example is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM and so are the constants which ultimately allow order to arise out of random variations and this is not just the case at the macro but also the subatomic level.
And I learned this in chemistry class last year, entropy tends to increase
JK- Bioth happens. It depends which place the chemicals are in but in order for something to initiate enthroy must have decreased intitally at certain places meaning infinite randomness had to be overcome.
That's very true. But again you can argue that there is something in the human psyche, an instinct sort of, that we end up believing htat. And the "one god" itself can have different interpretations. I dunno.
JK- Yes and therefore in science we argue about the probability of the truth. If the probability of there being a GOD is say 99% would one risk not to believe? How abt > 99.9999% as derived from the now known accuracy of physical constants necessary to get anything at all. I think nobody would and therefore i beleive even Einstein didnt deny GOD. He only along with Hawkins and some others made the claim tht GOD does no longer intervene.
You can only scientifically prove (sort of) a diest God. A god that created the world and left it alone to be run by set laws. That kind of God wouldn't write books and send messengers and create miracles.
JK- Two points 1) I have to diagree if GOD is the Ultimate Quantum Network then although there is no intervention on the macro level, there is continuos one at the subatomic one because the quantum partiucles continuousless INTERACT WITH EVERYTHING. Therefore we find statements in the Quran saying it is He who raises the clouds, drives the winds and everything else. 2) evn pure deism by no means indicates tht there wont be any scriptures or messengers because who says GOD needs to intervene to produce messengers. Cldnt He have fixed the constants so tht naturally messnegers and the message apear at their appropriate times and aint this even more fascinating? After all GOD says in the Quran tht He has calculated the number of all things. GOD Bless!
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hey you never called me bro in response. Makes me kinna sad
hey, I never call anyone "bro" in my posts, bro. Or even "sis," for that matter. Not a big fan of siblings I suppose.
Nothing against you, though.
I haven't read your whole post yet. Will reply later.
peace. -
peace JK,
sorry, completely forgot about this thread..
Anyway,K- No everything is definitely not random. Natural selection for example is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM and so are the constants which ultimately allow order to arise out of random variations and this is not just the case at the macro but also the subatomic level.
can you give me an example of that? how is the movement of electrons not random?
JK- Yes and therefore in science we argue about the probability of the truth. If the probability of there being a GOD is say 99% would one risk not to believe? How abt > 99.9999% as derived from the now known accuracy of physical constants necessary to get anything at all. I think nobody would and therefore i beleive even Einstein didnt deny GOD. He only along with Hawkins and some others made the claim tht GOD does no longer intervene.
Yes, but they both had different ideas of "God." And Einstien was only religious because of his rebellious personality (using your rationalist argument here), his parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious. But he never believed in the sort of God that writes books and sends down messengers.
JK- Two points 1) I have to diagree if GOD is the Ultimate Quantum Network then although there is no intervention on the macro level, there is continuos one at the subatomic one because the quantum partiucles continuousless INTERACT WITH EVERYTHING. Therefore we find statements in the Quran saying it is He who raises the clouds, drives the winds and everything else. 2) evn pure deism by no means indicates tht there wont be any scriptures or messengers because who says GOD needs to intervene to produce messengers. Cldnt He have fixed the constants so tht naturally messnegers and the message apear at their appropriate times and aint this even more fascinating? After all GOD says in the Quran tht He has calculated the number of all things. GOD Bless!
So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?
The American gov't didn't start the Iraq war, God did. If what you are saying is true, then God is a sick, evil, bastard. -
So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?Each soul earns its own reward or punishment.
We have free will or rather ?intent? to act (if permitted) on ideas which pop into our heads thus setting up our own dominos of life continuously every moment while God without time-space constraints is witness to our entire journey.
Peace
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Peace "lobster",
peace JK,
sorry, completely forgot about this thread..
Anyway, can you give me an example of that? how is the movement of electrons not random?JK- I was not talking about the movement of electrons not being random but the universal CONSTANTS which allow for natural selection. Natural selection is by no means random and i know of no scientist who would make such a claim. The movement of the electrons may also be only apparently random but it most likely has a reason as to why it moves in the way it does, much of which is still not known.
Yes, but they both had different ideas of "God." And Einstien was only religious because of his rebellious personality (using your rationalist argument here), his parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious. But he never believed in the sort of God that writes books and sends down messengers.
JK- His parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious? Doesnt make much sense to me. The opposite would though. Einstein also said that "religion without science is blind but science without religion is lame". As for how he defined GOD, i agree he was a deist and also perhaps didnt beleive in any scriptures or messengers being sent by/through Him.
So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?
The American gov't didn't start the Iraq war, God did. If what you are saying is true, then God is a sick, evil, bastard.JK- This is one of the most difficult questions to answer. Some people say GOD did calculate 99.999999% for things to come into being but the little remainder He left deliberately for there to be something random RELATIVE to him and this is what causes apparent chaos. But this would then mean that GOD, despite knowing the major trends of evolutionary development, would not know what certain beings(mostly humans) would do at any particular time which again would be against the very definition of His nature i.e He knows all as also stressed repeatedly in the Quran. I believe that everything is causal anyways, meaning it goes in the direction where the particles "take" it as explained earlier. Everything bad that we do is the result of our neural processings and as said GOD does not intervene on the macro level to change the direction of the neural reactions. They go the way theyr going. Moreover you cannot call GOD sick or anything else because you would always be arguing from ignorance since all what appears bad or good is only relative and everything has a causal reason. Infact evolution shows that something very bad is somwtimes required for things to get ahead. They could all be processes wer going through and ultimately everyone would be joining GOD again. GOD Bless!
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Peace again "lobster",
peace Nun,
You might believe we have free-will, but Jonny doesn't. He thinks God set the dominos in motion long ago and everything has been following a pre-determined pattern ever since.JK- Infact even long ago wouldnt be right. INFINITELY ago would do it. There is no beginning in the absolute sense. GOD Bless!
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Listen, even if it is predetermined (determinism doesn't entirely work - see the work of Heisenberg), BY ALL MEANS, we have free will. If it is pre-determined, WE CANNOT PERCIEVE IT. If you do something bad, YOU DO SOMETHING BAD, not God who has "pre-determined" it.
Please read up on Heisenberg if you love determinism so much.
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b]Salam everyone,
Interesting discussion. Everything IS predetermined. Everything is controlled by Allah. If something bad happens to you, it is from your own work OR a test to see your faith & steadfastness. Since everything is predetermined and Allah knows everything that will happen, he has obviously planned for everything that happened to Adam to happen. Remember he said to the angels ?I know what you don?t know? (230-33).
Obviously then, Allah has an audience (the angels as well as the jinns & Satan). But the challenge is with Satan, to show him that he is incompetent as a god & will fail miserably in trying to entice Allah?s servants. Allah will show his enemy and audience (the heavenly society & the earthly jinns) that he will have victory in the end (sura 110- last revelation), regardless of all the damage that the Satan is doing to us and earth. Allah showed his audience that the human is weak (Adam was forgiven surely). This weakness is so strong that we can be tempted by even a fruit!!! So Allah put the weak beings on earth to test them in a place which is even managed by Satan himself, to show everyone (on heaven and earth) that in spite of this weakness that humans have, there are people who still deserve to make it to heaven & Allah knows what is in everyone?s heart. We get to choose what path to take and what messages to follow. Yet, at the same time Allah promised to fill hell with people and jinns because they?re Satan followers. Being so weak we won?t even know which messages are from Satan through the jinns and which are from Allah through the angels (dreams, visions, hearing things etc.), and that?s another challenge (test) to see who will go astray and who will stick to Allah?s true revelations and understand their true meanings.
Peace,
Rida peace
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So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well..... -
Salam Enquirer,
((?So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right??))
God is always right, whether we like it or not! And the suffering is not from God. It is a consequence of the damage that Satan and Jinn and humans did. Disease and hunger and suffering is from the filth and evil-doings of Devil & humans.((?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless??))
God is merciful and he will reward everyone for their faith and steadfastness, here and in the afterlife, but the stronger your faith is, the more you will be rewarded. The weaker your faith is, the more you will be tested. People are not equal (e.g. some rich & some poor), but if you count your blessings you cannot count them. Allah says if you thank him (regardless of anything) then he will give you more! (in shakartum la azeedannakum).((Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....))
We have our own choices to make in life. Yes, Allah knows who is going to do what ? yes, & He knows who is going to hell & who is going 2 heaven. But the Devil also has his assumptions about where you?re going to go! ? So the devil must be proven wrong doesn?t he! And that?s OUR WORK as human beings with a brain. We either work with Allah or against him.Peace peace
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Peace "enquirer",
So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....JK- You still dont understand that good and evil are all relative. Both have to happen because of certain reasons some of which we may understand others not. I gave a good example of certain cells in the body which have to die in order for the spaces btw fingers to form. Its the same on the macro level but we may not comprehend it immediately. GOD says His mercy overcomes His wrath and this tendency can be seen int eh world. Theres a lot of bad but with the scientific method it is greatly overcome. Now wht do you suppose should have been done? How can free will exist without the violation of causality which is pure nonsense. The only thing which could be done is tht GOD although calculating the creation of everything and us leaving a tiny bit of randomness with respect to Himself before the big bang and then let the atoms move their way. Now tht means He Himself would know tht humans would form but wldnt know wht theyd do. But the question is why would He do that? Moeover is it possible that the Infinite Being can deliberately suppress Itself from knowing something at all or wont tht come automatically because Hes everywhere and penetrates everything through infinite dimensions? It just doesnt sound reasonable. The only reasonable answer is that all has its REASONS although we may not know why as yet. GOD Bless!