a challenge to quran aloners!!!

jonny_k

Peace bro "phoenix",

Peace JK,As a scientist, you can't believe that there will be a physical heaven and hell, because there is no empirical evidence, and there's no reason to believe in it if you don't believe in the concept of the soul.
but I believe that there will be a paradise and a hell after death, but it is there before death too.

JK- You obviously havnt read the omega point theory or bro Arnold's scientific approach to the after life article http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0
other wise you wouldnt make the above claim. Moreover there is absolutely no requirement to beleive in a supernatural soul for the afterlife since it is a phenomena where stored information would be recovered and so would be the soul/cosciousness which is there due to certain neural combination in the brain anyways.

I'll find the verse for you. It just says that the people who rise up from hell are great or something like that. It doesn't show whether hell is physical or not, but just that it's not eternal.

JK- I agree that hell is not eternal in an absolute sense since tht wont make sense but GOD has made the time of stay there a secret IMO inorder tht ppl not become lazy or less motivated in doing good. Brother Edip has also written an article on that.

Yes, but the descriptions are symbolic.

JK- Id say the descriptions are allegorical meaning they give appx comparisons to wht we already know which is necessary for the description of any new place which we havnt experienced yet. Thts wht allegory's all about.

But the reason the physical heaven and hell arguments don't work is that physical pain can be overcome. It is all in our heads. Happiness and pain is not the result of objects, but the result of our own mindset. That's why different things make different people happy. What you may find disgusting, I find enjoyable.

JK- Physical pain can only be overcome if those partcular neural activities forming it can be relaxed. if they are fixed in place, pain acnnot be overcome. As regards the relaivity of things there are certain things which cause pain and suffering to everone. Intense fire and heat for example make any human suffer and if the neural network is made even more sensitive to their recetion the suffering is even greater and yes last but not least its all in our heads but in hell theres no control, call it neural jam.

Flowing rivers and wonderful fruits do not guarantee happiness. Well, I should say physical rivers and fruits.

JK- True and hence the Quran mentions the greatest triumph is being near to GOD and tht He is satisfied with you and you as a response with Him. Rivers and fruits are mentioned to give an appx comparison so as to motivate people right from here using descoriptions of things we already know as i mentioned earlier. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace JK
Why isn't God supernatural? There isn't any evidence that points only to a creator. It always depends on how you look at it. So there's no conclusive scientific proof of God.
You said that God is "everything." If that's what god is, then how does "everything" keep secrets and punish people. You even took this supernatural God out of the after life.
So please explain to me your concept of God?

And doesn't the quran say that this world is an illusion?

jonny_k

Peace "phoenix",

peace JK
Why isn't God supernatural? There isn't any evidence that points only to a creator. It always depends on how you look at it. So there's no conclusive scientific proof of God.

JK- As ive mentioned before the existence of GOD is inevitable if you define GOD by the Infinite Power Source, and not a finite being of any definit shape or size. You must have infinite intelligence to overcome infinite randomness initially. This is exactly what happened when we see how when we observe the universe back in time we see overall enthroopy increaing and then it amazingly decreases because of the physical constants which again have to be set with infinitesimal precision for the contructive allignment of individually infinite stream of particles(quatum particles). If you jump to the mutliverse theory, then the existence of GOD becomes all the more solid since now thered be infinite time if we compare from one universe to another and with infinite time infinite amount of intelligence has to assemble and what was the definition of GOD, Infinite Intelligence so there you go again. This conclusively proves His existence. I cant understand how ppl cannot realize this. But there is still much more evidence even from the scriptures which can prove the existence of one GOD with high probability. Just check otu the core statements of the Vedas, Bible and other religius books and youll find they all mention One god. Its only in the details tht religions have differed. At the core theyr exactly the same. This pattern which came about indepedently from different parts of the world, yet stating the same at the very core is also proof. Ive explained this over and over in many of my posts.

You said that God is "everything." If that's what god is, then how does "everything" keep secrets and punish people. You even took this supernatural God out of the after life.
So please explain to me your concept of God?

And doesn't the quran say that this world is an illusion?

JK- I think ive explained it now above and as for the illusion part, tht is somehat misunderstood. Wht i now beleive this arabic term translated so means is tht this world is just temporary and we need to work hard in it and strive being righteous, not tht it is a world controlled by magical forces or so. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace JK,
thanks for the reply.

JK- As ive mentioned before the existence of GOD is inevitable if you define GOD by the Infinite Power Source, and not a finite being of any definit shape or size. You must have infinite intelligence to overcome infinite randomness initially. This is exactly what happened when we see how when we observe the universe back in time we see overall enthroopy increaing and then it amazingly decreases because of the physical constants which again have to be set with infinitesimal precision for the contructive allignment of individually infinite stream of particles(quatum particles).

But there are scientists who say that everything is random, and that because humans are good at finding patterns, we think everything is orderly. I think it's a matter of interpretation in the end. You can look at it as random or as orderly, but I don't think there is one concrete answer.
And I learned this in chemistry class last year, entropy tends to increase

Just check otu the core statements of the Vedas, Bible and other religius books and youll find they all mention One god. Its only in the details tht religions have differed. At the core theyr exactly the same. This pattern which came about indepedently from different parts of the world, yet stating the same at the very core is also proof.

That's very true. But again you can argue that there is something in the human psyche, an instinct sort of, that we end up believing htat. And the "one god" itself can have different interpretations. I dunno.

You can only scientifically prove (sort of) a diest God. A god that created the world and left it alone to be run by set laws. That kind of God wouldn't write books and send messengers and create miracles.

jonny_k

Peace "phoenix",
hey you never called me bro in response. Makes me kinna sad '(

peace JK,
thanks for the reply.

But there are scientists who say that everything is random, and that because humans are good at finding patterns, we think everything is orderly. I think it's a matter of interpretation in the end. You can look at it as random or as orderly, but I don't think there is one concrete answer.

JK- No everything is definitely not random. Natural selection for example is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM and so are the constants which ultimately allow order to arise out of random variations and this is not just the case at the macro but also the subatomic level.

And I learned this in chemistry class last year, entropy tends to increase

JK- Bioth happens. It depends which place the chemicals are in but in order for something to initiate enthroy must have decreased intitally at certain places meaning infinite randomness had to be overcome.

That's very true. But again you can argue that there is something in the human psyche, an instinct sort of, that we end up believing htat. And the "one god" itself can have different interpretations. I dunno.

JK- Yes and therefore in science we argue about the probability of the truth. If the probability of there being a GOD is say 99% would one risk not to believe? How abt > 99.9999% as derived from the now known accuracy of physical constants necessary to get anything at all. I think nobody would and therefore i beleive even Einstein didnt deny GOD. He only along with Hawkins and some others made the claim tht GOD does no longer intervene.

You can only scientifically prove (sort of) a diest God. A god that created the world and left it alone to be run by set laws. That kind of God wouldn't write books and send messengers and create miracles.

JK- Two points 1) I have to diagree if GOD is the Ultimate Quantum Network then although there is no intervention on the macro level, there is continuos one at the subatomic one because the quantum partiucles continuousless INTERACT WITH EVERYTHING. Therefore we find statements in the Quran saying it is He who raises the clouds, drives the winds and everything else. 2) evn pure deism by no means indicates tht there wont be any scriptures or messengers because who says GOD needs to intervene to produce messengers. Cldnt He have fixed the constants so tht naturally messnegers and the message apear at their appropriate times and aint this even more fascinating? After all GOD says in the Quran tht He has calculated the number of all things. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

hey you never called me bro in response. Makes me kinna sad

hey, I never call anyone "bro" in my posts, bro. Or even "sis," for that matter. Not a big fan of siblings I suppose.
Nothing against you, though.
I haven't read your whole post yet. Will reply later.
peace.

phoenix1

peace JK,
sorry, completely forgot about this thread..
Anyway,

K- No everything is definitely not random. Natural selection for example is ANYTHING BUT RANDOM and so are the constants which ultimately allow order to arise out of random variations and this is not just the case at the macro but also the subatomic level.

can you give me an example of that? how is the movement of electrons not random?

JK- Yes and therefore in science we argue about the probability of the truth. If the probability of there being a GOD is say 99% would one risk not to believe? How abt > 99.9999% as derived from the now known accuracy of physical constants necessary to get anything at all. I think nobody would and therefore i beleive even Einstein didnt deny GOD. He only along with Hawkins and some others made the claim tht GOD does no longer intervene.

Yes, but they both had different ideas of "God." And Einstien was only religious because of his rebellious personality (using your rationalist argument here), his parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious. But he never believed in the sort of God that writes books and sends down messengers.

JK- Two points 1) I have to diagree if GOD is the Ultimate Quantum Network then although there is no intervention on the macro level, there is continuos one at the subatomic one because the quantum partiucles continuousless INTERACT WITH EVERYTHING. Therefore we find statements in the Quran saying it is He who raises the clouds, drives the winds and everything else. 2) evn pure deism by no means indicates tht there wont be any scriptures or messengers because who says GOD needs to intervene to produce messengers. Cldnt He have fixed the constants so tht naturally messnegers and the message apear at their appropriate times and aint this even more fascinating? After all GOD says in the Quran tht He has calculated the number of all things. GOD Bless!

So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?
The American gov't didn't start the Iraq war, God did. If what you are saying is true, then God is a sick, evil, bastard.

unknownuser

So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?

Each soul earns its own reward or punishment.

We have free will or rather ?intent? to act (if permitted) on ideas which pop into our heads thus setting up our own dominos of life continuously every moment while God without time-space constraints is witness to our entire journey.

Peace

phoenix1

peace Nun,
You might believe we have free-will, but Jonny doesn't. He thinks God set the dominos in motion long ago and everything has been following a pre-determined pattern ever since.

jonny_k

Peace "lobster",

peace JK,
sorry, completely forgot about this thread..
Anyway, can you give me an example of that? how is the movement of electrons not random?

JK- I was not talking about the movement of electrons not being random but the universal CONSTANTS which allow for natural selection. Natural selection is by no means random and i know of no scientist who would make such a claim. The movement of the electrons may also be only apparently random but it most likely has a reason as to why it moves in the way it does, much of which is still not known.

Yes, but they both had different ideas of "God." And Einstien was only religious because of his rebellious personality (using your rationalist argument here), his parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious. But he never believed in the sort of God that writes books and sends down messengers.

JK- His parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious? Doesnt make much sense to me. The opposite would though. Einstein also said that "religion without science is blind but science without religion is lame". As for how he defined GOD, i agree he was a deist and also perhaps didnt beleive in any scriptures or messengers being sent by/through Him.

So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?
The American gov't didn't start the Iraq war, God did. If what you are saying is true, then God is a sick, evil, bastard.

JK- This is one of the most difficult questions to answer. Some people say GOD did calculate 99.999999% for things to come into being but the little remainder He left deliberately for there to be something random RELATIVE to him and this is what causes apparent chaos. But this would then mean that GOD, despite knowing the major trends of evolutionary development, would not know what certain beings(mostly humans) would do at any particular time which again would be against the very definition of His nature i.e He knows all as also stressed repeatedly in the Quran. I believe that everything is causal anyways, meaning it goes in the direction where the particles "take" it as explained earlier. Everything bad that we do is the result of our neural processings and as said GOD does not intervene on the macro level to change the direction of the neural reactions. They go the way theyr going. Moreover you cannot call GOD sick or anything else because you would always be arguing from ignorance since all what appears bad or good is only relative and everything has a causal reason. Infact evolution shows that something very bad is somwtimes required for things to get ahead. They could all be processes wer going through and ultimately everyone would be joining GOD again. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace again "lobster",

peace Nun,
You might believe we have free-will, but Jonny doesn't. He thinks God set the dominos in motion long ago and everything has been following a pre-determined pattern ever since.

JK- Infact even long ago wouldnt be right. INFINITELY ago would do it. There is no beginning in the absolute sense. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Listen, even if it is predetermined (determinism doesn't entirely work - see the work of Heisenberg), BY ALL MEANS, we have free will. If it is pre-determined, WE CANNOT PERCIEVE IT. If you do something bad, YOU DO SOMETHING BAD, not God who has "pre-determined" it.

Please read up on Heisenberg if you love determinism so much.

peace4life

b]Salam everyone,

Interesting discussion. Everything IS predetermined. Everything is controlled by Allah. If something bad happens to you, it is from your own work OR a test to see your faith & steadfastness. Since everything is predetermined and Allah knows everything that will happen, he has obviously planned for everything that happened to Adam to happen. Remember he said to the angels ?I know what you don?t know? (230-33).

Obviously then, Allah has an audience (the angels as well as the jinns & Satan). But the challenge is with Satan, to show him that he is incompetent as a god & will fail miserably in trying to entice Allah?s servants. Allah will show his enemy and audience (the heavenly society & the earthly jinns) that he will have victory in the end (sura 110- last revelation), regardless of all the damage that the Satan is doing to us and earth. Allah showed his audience that the human is weak (Adam was forgiven surely). This weakness is so strong that we can be tempted by even a fruit!!! So Allah put the weak beings on earth to test them in a place which is even managed by Satan himself, to show everyone (on heaven and earth) that in spite of this weakness that humans have, there are people who still deserve to make it to heaven & Allah knows what is in everyone?s heart. We get to choose what path to take and what messages to follow. Yet, at the same time Allah promised to fill hell with people and jinns because they?re Satan followers. Being so weak we won?t even know which messages are from Satan through the jinns and which are from Allah through the angels (dreams, visions, hearing things etc.), and that?s another challenge (test) to see who will go astray and who will stick to Allah?s true revelations and understand their true meanings.

Peace,

Rida peace

unknownuser

So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....

peace4life

Salam Enquirer,

((?So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right??))
God is always right, whether we like it or not! And the suffering is not from God. It is a consequence of the damage that Satan and Jinn and humans did. Disease and hunger and suffering is from the filth and evil-doings of Devil & humans.

((?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless??))
God is merciful and he will reward everyone for their faith and steadfastness, here and in the afterlife, but the stronger your faith is, the more you will be rewarded. The weaker your faith is, the more you will be tested. People are not equal (e.g. some rich & some poor), but if you count your blessings you cannot count them. Allah says if you thank him (regardless of anything) then he will give you more! (in shakartum la azeedannakum).

((Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....))
We have our own choices to make in life. Yes, Allah knows who is going to do what ? yes, & He knows who is going to hell & who is going 2 heaven. But the Devil also has his assumptions about where you?re going to go! ? So the devil must be proven wrong doesn?t he! And that?s OUR WORK as human beings with a brain. We either work with Allah or against him.

Peace peace

jonny_k

Peace "enquirer",

So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....

JK- You still dont understand that good and evil are all relative. Both have to happen because of certain reasons some of which we may understand others not. I gave a good example of certain cells in the body which have to die in order for the spaces btw fingers to form. Its the same on the macro level but we may not comprehend it immediately. GOD says His mercy overcomes His wrath and this tendency can be seen int eh world. Theres a lot of bad but with the scientific method it is greatly overcome. Now wht do you suppose should have been done? How can free will exist without the violation of causality which is pure nonsense. The only thing which could be done is tht GOD although calculating the creation of everything and us leaving a tiny bit of randomness with respect to Himself before the big bang and then let the atoms move their way. Now tht means He Himself would know tht humans would form but wldnt know wht theyd do. But the question is why would He do that? Moeover is it possible that the Infinite Being can deliberately suppress Itself from knowing something at all or wont tht come automatically because Hes everywhere and penetrates everything through infinite dimensions? It just doesnt sound reasonable. The only reasonable answer is that all has its REASONS although we may not know why as yet. GOD Bless!

Yosemite

So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....

The result of the chaos made by men. You reap what you sow.

NADYM

Peace Brothers,

I just read the article,
First off all there I believe that there is no such things as the expression of Christian or Muslim. Plz keep oin mind that Althought Christianity is a religion being muslim is a state of being i.e. submitting. Submitting to what. Submitting to the fat that there is only one Lord and master of the universe. From Quran we learn that Jews, Christians and converts can be classified as Muslims if they 1) believe in God ALone 2) Belive in the hereafter & 3) do righteous work. Thats it.

Yes the person in the article is right where he say that Quran asks us to follow all the looks, but he forget or did not mention the fact that Quran also states that whatever was sent before is all included in quran. And we have to follow the Quran because Allah Himself promised to preserve it in the original form. And rest of the books have been distorted.

My Allah guide us on the right path.

Thanx
Nadeem

Abu_Zahrah

As Salaamu Alaikum

I have a few questions and challenges to all those who think or believe that you can actually fulfill your Deen as a Muslim if you just accepted and followed the Qur'an alone?

On what premise do you accept the Qur'an?
Do you fully believe in the Qur'an and everything it states or partially or what?
Do you believe in fulfilling the injunctions of the Qur'an or is it just a nice reading?
How do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) in relation to the Qur'an
Do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) as essential as Muslim or not?

These are my questions, my challenge I would really like someone to fully and thoroughly answer these questions, and what you will find out is that, you don't even fully believe in what you advocate. The proof is against yourselves. And if you can't see it, then i will be more than happy to point it out to you.

My name is Abu Zahrah and I believe in the Qur'an entirely and in the Hadith of the Messenger of ALLAH (S), as the is the point of the whole affair. If one does not see that, as is indicative from many of these post, you truly missed the point, even the clear points that are made in the Qur'an!!!

Katara

and peace be upon you, too,
Abu Zahrah.
I hope to learn something from this; for my own good.. so, here.. BTw, in case you're wodering, I have been reading constantly and seriously for guidance since mid 2006, after attending philosophy class ... i may edit my answers from time to time..who knows..these are my answers at this moment.

(most of your questions demand yes/no answers)

I accept the quran as a scripture from God on these premises

a) I continuously witness the rules of morality and msges stated in quran work like a piece of puzzle fitted nicely in its place, in a big jizsaw puzzle of this life.
c) the explaination/msges does not contradict the natural law/creation.
b) its msges reached me and gives explanation timely with what i am going through.
d) the way it is written-- direct, clear in its msg; addresses and challenges the readers; claimed it is the criterion and sent down from God; its parables contains more than just its literal meaning; not hearsay; and the "author" have no humanly motive..."hey, i am the one who wrote this, smart eh? here's my biography, my myspace profile, my pictures, ouh, i'm writing a book, want my autograph?"

Of cause other books may have the elements stated above, what made me

2)have faith in the whole book (wow, i spent quite some time on this)

--> the way it communicates to me, its effects on me and because of its extraordinary and ordinary messages, relate to what is going on --> no human has yet to claim and prove authorship --> comes from God

I believe in fulfilling its injunctions when the time and context requires it.
Whatever Prophet Muhammad did or said --that is important for our deen-- is in the quran. I remembered how my dad used to qoute a verse many times while debating, that says, CMIIW, if the prophet says sumthing is from god when it is not, he will be taken and slain.
.."as essential as muslim"? If God wills that he is to be replaced by another people, it can be done.. I think,surely there are reasons why muhammad was chosen. But if God had made him kafir, he would be kafir no matter what.. o hehe
(hehe) A hadith's validation depends on the Quran.

peace,
aimi