a challenge to quran aloners!!!
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So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?Each soul earns its own reward or punishment.
We have free will or rather ?intent? to act (if permitted) on ideas which pop into our heads thus setting up our own dominos of life continuously every moment while God without time-space constraints is witness to our entire journey.
Peace
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Peace "lobster",
peace JK,
sorry, completely forgot about this thread..
Anyway, can you give me an example of that? how is the movement of electrons not random?JK- I was not talking about the movement of electrons not being random but the universal CONSTANTS which allow for natural selection. Natural selection is by no means random and i know of no scientist who would make such a claim. The movement of the electrons may also be only apparently random but it most likely has a reason as to why it moves in the way it does, much of which is still not known.
Yes, but they both had different ideas of "God." And Einstien was only religious because of his rebellious personality (using your rationalist argument here), his parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious. But he never believed in the sort of God that writes books and sends down messengers.
JK- His parents were secular, so he wanted to be religious? Doesnt make much sense to me. The opposite would though. Einstein also said that "religion without science is blind but science without religion is lame". As for how he defined GOD, i agree he was a deist and also perhaps didnt beleive in any scriptures or messengers being sent by/through Him.
So everything has been planned out by God?
we are in a movie? If we are, then what's this talk about hell and heaven and resurrection? (a sequel?) If God is the reason people disbelieve, then why don't we blame God? If God is the reason people die horrible deaths, then shouldn't God take the blame?
The American gov't didn't start the Iraq war, God did. If what you are saying is true, then God is a sick, evil, bastard.JK- This is one of the most difficult questions to answer. Some people say GOD did calculate 99.999999% for things to come into being but the little remainder He left deliberately for there to be something random RELATIVE to him and this is what causes apparent chaos. But this would then mean that GOD, despite knowing the major trends of evolutionary development, would not know what certain beings(mostly humans) would do at any particular time which again would be against the very definition of His nature i.e He knows all as also stressed repeatedly in the Quran. I believe that everything is causal anyways, meaning it goes in the direction where the particles "take" it as explained earlier. Everything bad that we do is the result of our neural processings and as said GOD does not intervene on the macro level to change the direction of the neural reactions. They go the way theyr going. Moreover you cannot call GOD sick or anything else because you would always be arguing from ignorance since all what appears bad or good is only relative and everything has a causal reason. Infact evolution shows that something very bad is somwtimes required for things to get ahead. They could all be processes wer going through and ultimately everyone would be joining GOD again. GOD Bless!
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Peace again "lobster",
peace Nun,
You might believe we have free-will, but Jonny doesn't. He thinks God set the dominos in motion long ago and everything has been following a pre-determined pattern ever since.JK- Infact even long ago wouldnt be right. INFINITELY ago would do it. There is no beginning in the absolute sense. GOD Bless!
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Listen, even if it is predetermined (determinism doesn't entirely work - see the work of Heisenberg), BY ALL MEANS, we have free will. If it is pre-determined, WE CANNOT PERCIEVE IT. If you do something bad, YOU DO SOMETHING BAD, not God who has "pre-determined" it.
Please read up on Heisenberg if you love determinism so much.
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b]Salam everyone,
Interesting discussion. Everything IS predetermined. Everything is controlled by Allah. If something bad happens to you, it is from your own work OR a test to see your faith & steadfastness. Since everything is predetermined and Allah knows everything that will happen, he has obviously planned for everything that happened to Adam to happen. Remember he said to the angels ?I know what you don?t know? (230-33).
Obviously then, Allah has an audience (the angels as well as the jinns & Satan). But the challenge is with Satan, to show him that he is incompetent as a god & will fail miserably in trying to entice Allah?s servants. Allah will show his enemy and audience (the heavenly society & the earthly jinns) that he will have victory in the end (sura 110- last revelation), regardless of all the damage that the Satan is doing to us and earth. Allah showed his audience that the human is weak (Adam was forgiven surely). This weakness is so strong that we can be tempted by even a fruit!!! So Allah put the weak beings on earth to test them in a place which is even managed by Satan himself, to show everyone (on heaven and earth) that in spite of this weakness that humans have, there are people who still deserve to make it to heaven & Allah knows what is in everyone?s heart. We get to choose what path to take and what messages to follow. Yet, at the same time Allah promised to fill hell with people and jinns because they?re Satan followers. Being so weak we won?t even know which messages are from Satan through the jinns and which are from Allah through the angels (dreams, visions, hearing things etc.), and that?s another challenge (test) to see who will go astray and who will stick to Allah?s true revelations and understand their true meanings.
Peace,
Rida peace
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So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well..... -
Salam Enquirer,
((?So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right??))
God is always right, whether we like it or not! And the suffering is not from God. It is a consequence of the damage that Satan and Jinn and humans did. Disease and hunger and suffering is from the filth and evil-doings of Devil & humans.((?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless??))
God is merciful and he will reward everyone for their faith and steadfastness, here and in the afterlife, but the stronger your faith is, the more you will be rewarded. The weaker your faith is, the more you will be tested. People are not equal (e.g. some rich & some poor), but if you count your blessings you cannot count them. Allah says if you thank him (regardless of anything) then he will give you more! (in shakartum la azeedannakum).((Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....))
We have our own choices to make in life. Yes, Allah knows who is going to do what ? yes, & He knows who is going to hell & who is going 2 heaven. But the Devil also has his assumptions about where you?re going to go! ? So the devil must be proven wrong doesn?t he! And that?s OUR WORK as human beings with a brain. We either work with Allah or against him.Peace peace
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Peace "enquirer",
So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....JK- You still dont understand that good and evil are all relative. Both have to happen because of certain reasons some of which we may understand others not. I gave a good example of certain cells in the body which have to die in order for the spaces btw fingers to form. Its the same on the macro level but we may not comprehend it immediately. GOD says His mercy overcomes His wrath and this tendency can be seen int eh world. Theres a lot of bad but with the scientific method it is greatly overcome. Now wht do you suppose should have been done? How can free will exist without the violation of causality which is pure nonsense. The only thing which could be done is tht GOD although calculating the creation of everything and us leaving a tiny bit of randomness with respect to Himself before the big bang and then let the atoms move their way. Now tht means He Himself would know tht humans would form but wldnt know wht theyd do. But the question is why would He do that? Moeover is it possible that the Infinite Being can deliberately suppress Itself from knowing something at all or wont tht come automatically because Hes everywhere and penetrates everything through infinite dimensions? It just doesnt sound reasonable. The only reasonable answer is that all has its REASONS although we may not know why as yet. GOD Bless!
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So all the countless suffering of innocent men,women and children is for god to show us that he is right?........Does anyone regard that as compassionate,benevolent or selfless?
Pre-destination by god means that god is responsible for our deeds and so we cannot be judged as he willed us to do our bad deeds as well.....The result of the chaos made by men. You reap what you sow.
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Peace Brothers,
I just read the article,
First off all there I believe that there is no such things as the expression of Christian or Muslim. Plz keep oin mind that Althought Christianity is a religion being muslim is a state of being i.e. submitting. Submitting to what. Submitting to the fat that there is only one Lord and master of the universe. From Quran we learn that Jews, Christians and converts can be classified as Muslims if they 1) believe in God ALone 2) Belive in the hereafter & 3) do righteous work. Thats it.Yes the person in the article is right where he say that Quran asks us to follow all the looks, but he forget or did not mention the fact that Quran also states that whatever was sent before is all included in quran. And we have to follow the Quran because Allah Himself promised to preserve it in the original form. And rest of the books have been distorted.
My Allah guide us on the right path.
Thanx
Nadeem -
As Salaamu Alaikum
I have a few questions and challenges to all those who think or believe that you can actually fulfill your Deen as a Muslim if you just accepted and followed the Qur'an alone?
- On what premise do you accept the Qur'an?
- Do you fully believe in the Qur'an and everything it states or partially or what?
- Do you believe in fulfilling the injunctions of the Qur'an or is it just a nice reading?
- How do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) in relation to the Qur'an
- Do you see the Prophet Muhammad (S) as essential as Muslim or not?
These are my questions, my challenge I would really like someone to fully and thoroughly answer these questions, and what you will find out is that, you don't even fully believe in what you advocate. The proof is against yourselves. And if you can't see it, then i will be more than happy to point it out to you.
My name is Abu Zahrah and I believe in the Qur'an entirely and in the Hadith of the Messenger of ALLAH (S), as the is the point of the whole affair. If one does not see that, as is indicative from many of these post, you truly missed the point, even the clear points that are made in the Qur'an!!!
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and peace be upon you, too,
Abu Zahrah.
I hope to learn something from this; for my own good.. so, here.. BTw, in case you're wodering, I have been reading constantly and seriously for guidance since mid 2006, after attending philosophy class ... i may edit my answers from time to time..who knows..these are my answers at this moment.(most of your questions demand yes/no answers)
- I accept the quran as a scripture from God on these premises
a) I continuously witness the rules of morality and msges stated in quran work like a piece of puzzle fitted nicely in its place, in a big jizsaw puzzle of this life.
c) the explaination/msges does not contradict the natural law/creation.
b) its msges reached me and gives explanation timely with what i am going through.
d) the way it is written-- direct, clear in its msg; addresses and challenges the readers; claimed it is the criterion and sent down from God; its parables contains more than just its literal meaning; not hearsay; and the "author" have no humanly motive..."hey, i am the one who wrote this, smart eh? here's my biography, my myspace profile, my pictures, ouh, i'm writing a book, want my autograph?"Of cause other books may have the elements stated above, what made me
2)have faith in the whole book (wow, i spent quite some time on this)
--> the way it communicates to me, its effects on me and because of its extraordinary and ordinary messages, relate to what is going on --> no human has yet to claim and prove authorship --> comes from God
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I believe in fulfilling its injunctions when the time and context requires it.
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Whatever Prophet Muhammad did or said --that is important for our deen-- is in the quran. I remembered how my dad used to qoute a verse many times while debating, that says, CMIIW, if the prophet says sumthing is from god when it is not, he will be taken and slain.
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.."as essential as muslim"? If God wills that he is to be replaced by another people, it can be done.. I think,surely there are reasons why muhammad was chosen. But if God had made him kafir, he would be kafir no matter what.. o hehe
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(hehe) A hadith's validation depends on the Quran.
peace,
aimi -
salaam all
I dont think the link provided here is written by a previous muslim.
even though if mohd saleem saw jesus christ its his hallucination or
delution,as they are the symptoms of psychic abnormality.It is common
with hindu women seein lord krishna and some orthodox sunni's
seeing ouliyas nd prophet mohd.
by quoting bible nd hadiths he has done a good job proving that
they are almost same, mixed facts nd fairy tales.
and for the greatness of jesus over prophet mohammed, it is his
decision HE gives whom he wills.afterall quran never tells that
mohammed is over jesus. -
As Salaamu Alaikum Katara,
Thank you for you response. And I would like to add that Praise be to ALLAH for you recognizing the essentialness of the Prophet Muhammad (S) in our belief. Many want to make this a right and wrong issue. It is far from that, it is a matter of belief issue. How can possibly remove from the picture, the very one through whom the Qur'an was revealed. How do we know about the Qur'an except through the Prophet Muhammad (S). And if one full of ignorance dares to say, that it is the hadith that we reject not the Prophet Muhammad (S), then the same people who transmitted the Qur'an from one generation to the next is the same exact people who transmitted the Hadith. The only difference, is that the Qur'an is consolidated, while the Hadith are more sporadic, thus we can easily trace the veracity of the Qur'an because it is not in piece meal. The entirety of it it with one transmission, as for the Hadith, because there are so many threads of Hadith with different transmitters the matter becomes more rigours. But this does not discredit the whole science of Isnad and for us to completely reject the entirety of Hadith, such an approach is absurd!!! If we want to reject the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari and Muslims and on, even though they provide us with an unbroken chain of transmitters back to the Messenger of ALLAH (S), then who will we find when we start looking at the chain of transmitters of the Qur'an. Think deeply people and don't be fooled!!!
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Peace to all,
Katara,
I wonder how does the free will fit in the whole system of predetermination???
I would say everything is being observed... that would make sense.
Anyway, could you please elaborate a little on that?Peace
FJFree will is not absolute in the Quran. Allah guides and misguides whom Allah wills.
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OPF, that makes no sense. If Allah guides whomever Allah wills, then what's the point of seeking guidance, or even trying to learn the truth???
That needs to be re-interpreted, including the meaning of god.
God guides the ones who want guidance, who ask for it, who search for it. So god doesn't really choose who to guide, we do. We decide whether we are guided or not. -
Peace to all,
Im pretty sure theres a verse in the Quran that says, God guides those who turn to him, and chooses whom he wills, hence, OPF is probably right. Lobster, couldnt God choose whoever he wanted, even if the person doesnt want to believe God could make him couldnt he, isnt this within the power of God, however, I do believe that we do have absolute free will and it is subject only to the whims of God.
Kurt