GIVE ME A BREAK!
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Come on, don't twist her words, I doubt that's what she meant to say, I think all of you know full well this isn't based purely on her feelings, her reasons aren't that "it feels good to her, so it should be".
From my point of view, the real problem with all of this lies with what almarh0m has pointed out.
??? come on, i don't twist her words, but that is what it finally comes down to. About what almarh0m has pointed out what's wrong with a translation ? It is not a question of i drink orange juice or i drink squeezed oranges. Muslim is an arabic word which can be translated, it is a description of someone who is peaceful. It became a title because men made it one. I insist, i use it myself, but leave the people alone - a "give me a break" thread on this, is just a useless attack and a lack of tolerance. And i don't like attacks for nothing. That why i also state, that i do not appreciate Aaron's posts above - even though i see the truth in it - they are just attacks, and they are under the belt.
So rumi, if you want to "come on" someone, you chose the wrong person.
Peace elke
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and if you, in your first sentence, were referring to my reply to Rumi, let me explain...
I said that we must not assume others intentions because we don't know them. And for some reason he went on about why one of the reasons for translating the word is wrong.Where and when the bejesus did I ever tell you it was "wrong"?? All I did was just to post my reasons on why I think differently from you, they are still valid, you even haven't addressed them. Whatever the case is, I never said it was wrong or right, merely to present my case, in my view the argument for keeping the Arabic names far exceeds the argument for changing.
I said it in my reply to you, you can call yourselves whatever you want, whatever you feel like, hypothetically if you wanted to call yourself, follower of whatever, you definately can since I believe this is your right, by all means I won't stop you. But just because we can use any names we want, this does not mean we should. There needs to be valid concrete reasons for changing/translating names used. I've written in that post.
ALSO, read the first paragraph of my post, I was replying to you specifically how it's not really about assuming intentions, this whole issue /thread was started because someone says that using the word Muslim as divisive, I believe it was Saboushi in another thread. There was absolutely NO assuming intentions there. I even used his own words, "divisive". He has made his intentions known and clear, he would rather not choose to use the words Muslim since it's "divisive" in light of other peoples opinions and prejudices in the age we live in. I've written, if you even care to read again why this is not a valid reason to change the names, it is merely conforming to a set prejudice. Personally I'm not for that, I'd rather break these prejudices. Look, I'm repeating my points again!
Or maybe I didn't understand his post. But I thought it was the other way around, so I mentioned it.
almarh0m was right, just because I present my views, you arrogantly say I'm missing your point (I'm not daft, I know perfectly well what you're saying). Because I don't agree with you, does not mean I'm saying you're wrong, I'm trying to find truth. I've merely illustrated why and how I've derived my opinion on the matter.
If people don't want to use the names Islam, Muslim, Quran, as some are doing so, that's their choice, whether it's right or wrong, it's not my place to say and I haven't said so. I just want to examine the compelling reasons for such actions, I use words and explanations that have already been uttered on why some people choose to change the Arabic names, there was no assumption of intent there, intent has been shown, not on this particular thread but another.
I wonder who really is making the assumptions here?
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??? come on, i don't twist her words, but that is what it finally comes down to.
Yes, come on, you've brought down all her reasons to petty feelings. That's uncalled for, since she's presented her ideas based on more than just feelings.
What I'm trying to figure out is why you want to translate it in the first place? Merely because you can? Because it's simply in Arabic?? As almarh0m has pointed out, the meaning of Allah, Quran, Muslim has not been lost because it's in a different and foreign language. Also as I have pointed out, there is a unity of concept by having mankind using the same name, the Billion people who call themselves Muslim, know what Allah and the Quran is, the rest of humanity might have some kind of basic understanding.
It's not also a lack of tolerance, as I have said and possibly Honor too in a previous post. you're free to call yourselves whatever you want, use whatever name you want.
Peace, Rumi
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That why i also state, that i do not appreciate Aaron's posts above - even though i see the truth in it - they are just attacks, and they are under the belt.
the entire thread, the title itself, is an attack... so turnabout is fairplay, as they say
and of course if you see the truth in it you must therefore understand that truth itself is an attack on falsehood )
(i think i read somewhere that truth bashes falsehood P )i don't talk here much, but i figured i would throw in my two bits when people are crappin all over these guys who work their butts off to share this info with the world only to be called "self haters" and be accused of following their "lowly desires".
not my fault if people are attached to the sounds of words instead of the concepts which those words embody )
oh yeah, and i'm used to not being appreciated... fully expected anyways... i bash my head against brick walls purely because i enjoy the sound it makes inside my head brickwall P
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Salam All~
Since I am one who started this thread, let me say a few things to end it. First, I started it in refuation at my own opinion of SAbboushi's comments and others on his thread. Just as Rumi stated for me. Secondly, I am not trying to undercut or hit people below the belt, by sharing my opinion that I think calling oneself muslim is just. I gave all my reasons, which were not personal but ayats from the Quran as to why I have the perception of calling myself muslim, my religion Islam, my Book Quran. Elke, I am not mad or upset at you, and I do appreciate many of the people who work very hard to study translations as well as the Quran in deen, even when their perceptions or findings I disagree with. AaRon...I could honestly care less, if you thought that I was cutting people down, and so you wanted to give me a punch in spite. I didn't even notice. I made all my opinions on this matter, and I have nothing left to say on it. I am a muslim, who calls myself muslim, I practice Islam, what I name my religion,and I read the Quran, the name I have for the book I read. I do this, because I perceive it that way from the Quran, and It feels right to me. If others dont do the same, to each his own. I was only in defense for those that were trying to promote to all not to call ourselves muslim.
Peace be upon you all ...lets all get along now, and stop fighting, k? group
Honor
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oh less to do with spite and alot more to do with the fact that you are just plain wrong.
god's promise is to deliver the message to a people in their own language before visiting destruction upon the wrongdoers.
there are those who help to fulfill the promise, and those who attempt to hinder it.
but it doesn't matter that much anyways, god don't need a book to get his message across. i learned that much anyways...
god don't need... plain and simple
I didn't even notice.
if you didn't notice then why did you say something about it? hilarious
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AaRon~
I didn't notice your attack to me, it was someone else who advised me. Not hilarious. whatever I am sorry for the way you view God etc, as I do not agree with you. AaRon I really have nothing further to say to you because Your comments after my polite statement prove that you are petty and imature.
P
Honor -
aww, you followed an attack with a polite statement and now i'm a jerk? haha
sorry for the way i view god hey? and you don't agree?
funny, the book you claim to love so much says right in it that god won't destroy a community until sending them a warner in their own language. give it a read sometime. prove me wrong if you like.
i also said god doesn't need... god being without need is in that book somewhere too.
wow, have you not even read it enough to at least come to these simple conclusions? disappointed i would be... if i cared that much... instead i will just laugh to myself like a big jerk... it doesn't bother me
you are petty
i know, and without makeup even... hey wait... that doesn't say pretty... oh foul! you tricked me! P
hey, i'm being mean... maybe you should cook me supper too
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Peace rumi,
What I'm trying to figure out is why you want to translate it in the first place? Merely because you can? Because it's simply in Arabic?? As almarh0m has pointed out, the meaning of Allah, Quran, Muslim has not been lost because it's in a different and foreign language. Also as I have pointed out, there is a unity of concept by having mankind using the same name, the Billion people who call themselves Muslim, know what Allah and the Quran is, the rest of humanity might have some kind of basic understanding.
Why ? Because the concept that is vehicled may not be the one you wish to bring across. No a muslim is not for me someone (by chance) born a muslim, or a convert praying five times a day and fasting. I still use the word muslim, may be because i live in an arab country, but i use it to shock sometimes - because i want people to reflect, to think, not just follow. When i tell someone here that the nassara ("christians" this is how they call the westerners around here) are sometimes the better muslims, you bet that they are shocked, but some start thinking...al hamdullelah or thank god...The billion of people know what quran is ? U sure ? Most people around here, even though "muslims" serve me hadith thinking that it is in quran.
IMO there's no unity of concept. Now i don't know about you, but when i speak french i say dieu, german gott, english god, arabic allah.... is that so hard to get ?you're free to call yourselves whatever you want, use whatever name you want.
Well thank you !
elke
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Peace all,
My opinion is that the words "Islam" and "Muslim" can be used and even the translations of these words in the language you prefer to speak and understand most.
I don't feel the need of running around and claim I'm a muslim, because I can say I'm a believer of God.
And if it come up question what kind of believer I am then I can explain my beliefs but why running around and say , Hey I'm a muslim and wow Islam is great, because then I force my beliefs on other people.
But in a discussion then it's more natural to bring these things up and more fair indeed too.
But to feel ashame that I'm a muslim, NO WAY!! because the kind of Islam I'm following is great and if other people following different kind of islam then it's up to them.
Peace
Maria -
Peace
i guess he refers to several versesIbrahim - 14.4 . And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk , that he might make ( the message ) clear for them . Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray , and guideth whom He will . He is the Mighty , the Wise .
Ash-Shu'araa - 26.208 . And We destroyed no township but it had its warners
Al-Anfal - 8.54 . ( Their way is ) as the way of Pharoah ' s folk and those before them ; they denied the revelations of their Lord , so We destroyed them in their sins . And We drowned the folk of Pharaoh . All were evil doers .
Al-Isra - 17.16 . And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease , and afterward they commit abomination therein , and so the Word ( of doom ) hath effect for it , and We annihilate it with complete annihilation .
lk
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Peace be on you Elke
Thanks for the verses .
Other than the verse 144 which has part relevance the rest of the verses are not relevant to what Aaron said.
Even 144 only says messengers sent speak the same language as their people. For instance Muhammad spoke Arabic so his people could understand him. Allah did not send a messenger who spoke Hebrew to the people of Muhammad.
But the verse does not say anything about ?destroying a community? so it has to be another verse which Aaron referred to.
So I will await Aarons reply or till you find the exact verse.
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yeah pretty much just take what elke showed you and combine the concepts, that would pretty accurately convey the point i was making. of course nobody is required to agree with the interpretation.
don't mix everything up. I said that i didn't like your post, not you. About you i don't know yet
oh don't worry you always seem pretty nice so i'm not lookin to get into an argument with you or anything
Elke, did you just ask Aaron out? lol
He should send me a pic first..
haha you guys crack me up... take care
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Peace Aaron
Aaron the book you claim to love so much says right in it that god won't destroy a community until sending them a warner in their own language. give it a read sometime. prove me wrong if you like.
Poor combination of verses. Combining was bad enough but you said ?the book?..says right in it?.
And none of the verses quoted above by Elke says ?god won?t destroy? which is a promise for the future. The verses quoted deal with the past.