GIVE ME A BREAK!
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??? come on, i don't twist her words, but that is what it finally comes down to.
Yes, come on, you've brought down all her reasons to petty feelings. That's uncalled for, since she's presented her ideas based on more than just feelings.
What I'm trying to figure out is why you want to translate it in the first place? Merely because you can? Because it's simply in Arabic?? As almarh0m has pointed out, the meaning of Allah, Quran, Muslim has not been lost because it's in a different and foreign language. Also as I have pointed out, there is a unity of concept by having mankind using the same name, the Billion people who call themselves Muslim, know what Allah and the Quran is, the rest of humanity might have some kind of basic understanding.
It's not also a lack of tolerance, as I have said and possibly Honor too in a previous post. you're free to call yourselves whatever you want, use whatever name you want.
Peace, Rumi
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That why i also state, that i do not appreciate Aaron's posts above - even though i see the truth in it - they are just attacks, and they are under the belt.
the entire thread, the title itself, is an attack... so turnabout is fairplay, as they say
and of course if you see the truth in it you must therefore understand that truth itself is an attack on falsehood )
(i think i read somewhere that truth bashes falsehood P )i don't talk here much, but i figured i would throw in my two bits when people are crappin all over these guys who work their butts off to share this info with the world only to be called "self haters" and be accused of following their "lowly desires".
not my fault if people are attached to the sounds of words instead of the concepts which those words embody )
oh yeah, and i'm used to not being appreciated... fully expected anyways... i bash my head against brick walls purely because i enjoy the sound it makes inside my head brickwall P
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Salam All~
Since I am one who started this thread, let me say a few things to end it. First, I started it in refuation at my own opinion of SAbboushi's comments and others on his thread. Just as Rumi stated for me. Secondly, I am not trying to undercut or hit people below the belt, by sharing my opinion that I think calling oneself muslim is just. I gave all my reasons, which were not personal but ayats from the Quran as to why I have the perception of calling myself muslim, my religion Islam, my Book Quran. Elke, I am not mad or upset at you, and I do appreciate many of the people who work very hard to study translations as well as the Quran in deen, even when their perceptions or findings I disagree with. AaRon...I could honestly care less, if you thought that I was cutting people down, and so you wanted to give me a punch in spite. I didn't even notice. I made all my opinions on this matter, and I have nothing left to say on it. I am a muslim, who calls myself muslim, I practice Islam, what I name my religion,and I read the Quran, the name I have for the book I read. I do this, because I perceive it that way from the Quran, and It feels right to me. If others dont do the same, to each his own. I was only in defense for those that were trying to promote to all not to call ourselves muslim.
Peace be upon you all ...lets all get along now, and stop fighting, k? group
Honor
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oh less to do with spite and alot more to do with the fact that you are just plain wrong.
god's promise is to deliver the message to a people in their own language before visiting destruction upon the wrongdoers.
there are those who help to fulfill the promise, and those who attempt to hinder it.
but it doesn't matter that much anyways, god don't need a book to get his message across. i learned that much anyways...
god don't need... plain and simple
I didn't even notice.
if you didn't notice then why did you say something about it? hilarious
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AaRon~
I didn't notice your attack to me, it was someone else who advised me. Not hilarious. whatever I am sorry for the way you view God etc, as I do not agree with you. AaRon I really have nothing further to say to you because Your comments after my polite statement prove that you are petty and imature.
P
Honor -
aww, you followed an attack with a polite statement and now i'm a jerk? haha
sorry for the way i view god hey? and you don't agree?
funny, the book you claim to love so much says right in it that god won't destroy a community until sending them a warner in their own language. give it a read sometime. prove me wrong if you like.
i also said god doesn't need... god being without need is in that book somewhere too.
wow, have you not even read it enough to at least come to these simple conclusions? disappointed i would be... if i cared that much... instead i will just laugh to myself like a big jerk... it doesn't bother me
you are petty
i know, and without makeup even... hey wait... that doesn't say pretty... oh foul! you tricked me! P
hey, i'm being mean... maybe you should cook me supper too
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Peace rumi,
What I'm trying to figure out is why you want to translate it in the first place? Merely because you can? Because it's simply in Arabic?? As almarh0m has pointed out, the meaning of Allah, Quran, Muslim has not been lost because it's in a different and foreign language. Also as I have pointed out, there is a unity of concept by having mankind using the same name, the Billion people who call themselves Muslim, know what Allah and the Quran is, the rest of humanity might have some kind of basic understanding.
Why ? Because the concept that is vehicled may not be the one you wish to bring across. No a muslim is not for me someone (by chance) born a muslim, or a convert praying five times a day and fasting. I still use the word muslim, may be because i live in an arab country, but i use it to shock sometimes - because i want people to reflect, to think, not just follow. When i tell someone here that the nassara ("christians" this is how they call the westerners around here) are sometimes the better muslims, you bet that they are shocked, but some start thinking...al hamdullelah or thank god...The billion of people know what quran is ? U sure ? Most people around here, even though "muslims" serve me hadith thinking that it is in quran.
IMO there's no unity of concept. Now i don't know about you, but when i speak french i say dieu, german gott, english god, arabic allah.... is that so hard to get ?you're free to call yourselves whatever you want, use whatever name you want.
Well thank you !
elke
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Peace all,
My opinion is that the words "Islam" and "Muslim" can be used and even the translations of these words in the language you prefer to speak and understand most.
I don't feel the need of running around and claim I'm a muslim, because I can say I'm a believer of God.
And if it come up question what kind of believer I am then I can explain my beliefs but why running around and say , Hey I'm a muslim and wow Islam is great, because then I force my beliefs on other people.
But in a discussion then it's more natural to bring these things up and more fair indeed too.
But to feel ashame that I'm a muslim, NO WAY!! because the kind of Islam I'm following is great and if other people following different kind of islam then it's up to them.
Peace
Maria -
Peace
i guess he refers to several versesIbrahim - 14.4 . And We never sent a messenger save with the language of his folk , that he might make ( the message ) clear for them . Then Allah sendeth whom He will astray , and guideth whom He will . He is the Mighty , the Wise .
Ash-Shu'araa - 26.208 . And We destroyed no township but it had its warners
Al-Anfal - 8.54 . ( Their way is ) as the way of Pharoah ' s folk and those before them ; they denied the revelations of their Lord , so We destroyed them in their sins . And We drowned the folk of Pharaoh . All were evil doers .
Al-Isra - 17.16 . And when We would destroy a township We send commandment to its folk who live at ease , and afterward they commit abomination therein , and so the Word ( of doom ) hath effect for it , and We annihilate it with complete annihilation .
lk
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Peace be on you Elke
Thanks for the verses .
Other than the verse 144 which has part relevance the rest of the verses are not relevant to what Aaron said.
Even 144 only says messengers sent speak the same language as their people. For instance Muhammad spoke Arabic so his people could understand him. Allah did not send a messenger who spoke Hebrew to the people of Muhammad.
But the verse does not say anything about ?destroying a community? so it has to be another verse which Aaron referred to.
So I will await Aarons reply or till you find the exact verse.
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yeah pretty much just take what elke showed you and combine the concepts, that would pretty accurately convey the point i was making. of course nobody is required to agree with the interpretation.
don't mix everything up. I said that i didn't like your post, not you. About you i don't know yet
oh don't worry you always seem pretty nice so i'm not lookin to get into an argument with you or anything
Elke, did you just ask Aaron out? lol
He should send me a pic first..
haha you guys crack me up... take care
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Peace Aaron
Aaron the book you claim to love so much says right in it that god won't destroy a community until sending them a warner in their own language. give it a read sometime. prove me wrong if you like.
Poor combination of verses. Combining was bad enough but you said ?the book?..says right in it?.
And none of the verses quoted above by Elke says ?god won?t destroy? which is a promise for the future. The verses quoted deal with the past.
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Dear Samia,
955 (radadnaa)
995 (awhaa lahaa)
1013 &10 (maa adraaka)
1016 &8 (thaqulat & khaffat)I will get you some more examples as well as examples from grammar books. This is an old Arabic feature however, and is not used in MSA at all, excpet with qualifying words and in certain phrases yaa laita, idhaa, law, in etc.
Godbless,
AnwarSalam nwar
Sorry, I did not see this post before.
The first two verses are valid to your argument. The last two are not, and this is why
1013;10 adraaka and yudreeka mean the same. This is an idiom like maa zaala and gaa yazalu (still).
101 6;8 the verbs are in a conditional sentence (with man, which has a similar rule as itha).If you notice, the first two are verbs of Go's action, which is timeless. So, your rule is correct, but limited to the quraan. I do not think it is possible to apply it to the language at large. But it is quite interesting. I believe that the quraan has its own sociolinguistics; and now this shows that it has its own linguistics. A further support that the quraan's language is not based on classical arabic, nor on quraish arabic; just clear and understandable language.
Thanks
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let's see... we have one part that says god never punishes until a messenger is sent... then we have another part that says messengers are sent in the language of their people... try putting them together
i'm pretty much over my verse choppin stage so the most you will tend get from me is an overall view of the entire message as i understand it.
in this case
a) god does not change god's method
b) god sent messages in the language of the community god was warning
c) god did not destroy a community until god sent a messagea+b+c = should god decide to destroy any communities in the future god shall send them the message in their own language
please note that i am only speaking in terms of past, present or future for your benefit, as it also does not fall into my beliefs that god is constrained by what we consider as the passage of so called time.
Combining was bad enough
that's how reading works... one reads letters, reads them together to form words, reads the words together to form sentences and continues thusly in order to come to an overall idea of what the writer is trying to convey
sometimes when one reads a book one has to remember a concept from earlier in the book to link with the concept one is currently reading
so i would venture to say that you also combine.