Tasreef/Crossreference understanding of Jesus's deeds---Miracle belief rejected
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I thought , we were done with this topic, Brother tanveer and fahad had refuted it in length, the thread is available for every one to make up his own mind.
why not use these energies on some thing new, we still have plenty of important issues to do justice with.
peace
siki
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Peace,
The storu was not refuted, they made their point clear and I mine. In the end it came down too that there were more logical answers for the story, but even if there are far more logical answers, people still want to hang on to miracles as they believe it is necessary for God to 'prove' His Power. For me, the Universe is already enough.
I stick to the more logical answers, as the Quran also explains Jesus's deeds being told metaphorically as I explained above using the Quran alone, then it is also logical that there is also a logical answer for his birth.
But we had this discussion, you can believe it to be a 'miracle' or a more logical story that is even completely in line with newly understood history.
Warner, in 335-37 the mother of Mary already dedicated her child to God's service, her tone already shows this some kind of special service. Then later on we see Mary being given to Zacheria's custody in the Temple. 1+1=2 for me.
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Peace Arnold
AY Warner, in 335-37 the mother of Mary already dedicated her child to God's service, her tone already shows this some kind of special service. Then later on we see Mary being given to Zacheria's custody in the Temple. 1+1=2 for me
There is nothing in the Quran to suggest that family of Imaran or mother of Mary are transgressors. If Mary ended up in a temple the fault is Zakarias since he was her guardian. Also nothing to suggest mary being given to zakaria?s custody in the temple. Are you suggesting Zakaria is at fault? Also there is no mention of a temple/masjid in the Quran to which the prophets such as Zakaria were attached to.
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Peace Arnold
Arnold Of course Allah can do it, this is not the discussion. It is about what falls under Allah's Laws as he clearly says He will not brake His Laws. These include the Laws of the Universe.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.msg110222#msg110222
Can you kindly tell me your observation that "Allah will not break His Laws" is based on which verse/s ?
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Peace
I believe Mary was handed over to Zakaria as the guardian since her parents died.
19 28
Yusuf Ali "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
Pickthall Oh sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
Ya_ ukhta ha_ru_na ma_ ka_na abu_kim ra a sau iw wa ma_ ka_nat um muki baghiy ya_In the above verse we can see people referring to Mary?s Father and Mother in the past tense. Also if Mary brings a child out of marriage her parents will be the first to worry or confront and we do not see any mention of them here.
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I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe (Al-Imran 349)
My question to all you people who deny the great miracles that Allah showed through the Messiah (alaihi salaam), is why does the Holy Quran say after mentioning every "supernatural miracle" of Jesus (alaihi salaam), but does not add this phrase after any of his more normal deeds (such as declaring what his followers should eat and store in their houses)? The phrase bithni Allahi added after every supernatural miracle mentioned in this verse is to show that whereas these miracles appeared to have been done by Jesus (alaihi salaam), in reality they were Signs from Allah, because Jesus (alaihi salaam) is only a human being. If all of these miracles, as some people foolishly contend, were metaphors and not supernatural, what would the reason be for "bithni Allahi"?
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And there is another verse where the miracles bestowed to Jesus Christ (alaihi salaam) are mentioned as well
Then will Allah say O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Al-Maidah 5110)
Again we can see the phrase bithnee (by My leave) mentioned after every supernatural miracle.
Furthermore, the verse says that Jesus (alaihi salaam) miraculously cured those born blind, which has to be physical blindness, because Allah does not create anyone spiritually blind.
Jazak Allah khair
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Peace,
First you must ask yourself
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Why would you hold on to believing in miracles when much more logical answers can be given? What purpose does belief in miracles serve? To prove God's Power? That is nonsense of course, as why would He need to prove Himself while it is Him who installed the Laws of the Universe in the first place. It is like building a house and then demolish it to show my strenght, nonsense of course. Building of the house out of nothing already shows the Wisdom and Power of God. The Truth is what makes people believe, not miracles or magic. Why do you think we must research nature? see 3191
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Warner, I have discussed that issue already before. Two views came out of it. One is that Allah does not change His Ways is only with with handling people. But this in my eyes means, that the Laws that govern His Requital in our Universe with people are the only fixed Laws, through understanding Nature, we can see that all of the Laws in the Universe are fixed, but also, that many Laws that govern His Requital, are intertwined with other Laws of Nature.
Thus by my understanding ALL Laws are fixed and unchangable in the Universe, this is Allah's Kalimaat, Word and Decree.
I have already discussed this before in many threads, and I have no time for again going through all the subjects over and over.
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and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Al-Maidah 5110)
I also forgot to mention, that if all of these acts by Jesus (alaihi salaam) were all metaphorical and "natural", etc., why would the disbelievers accuse him of sihr (sorcery). Evidently, this is another proof that that which Jesus (alaihi salaam) performed were manifest supernatural miracles from Allah.
Why would you hold on to believing in miracles when much more logical answers can be given?
What matters is what the truth is. We should always pursue the Truth, no matter how harsh or "illogical" it may appear. Interpreting the Holy Quran based on what you want it to mean and based on your own preconceived notions is immoral and wrong. Allah is the One who dictates to us, our function is to simply humbly submit to Him unconditionally
Nay, whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good, He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Al-Baqarah 2112)
What purpose does belief in miracles serve? To prove God's Power? That is nonsense of course, as why would He need to prove Himself while it is Him who installed the Laws of the Universe in the first place. It is like building a house and then demolish it to show my strenght, nonsense of course. Building of the house out of nothing already shows the Wisdom and Power of God. The Truth is what makes people believe, not miracles or magic
The Signs of Allah are for those who already believe, it only strengthens their faith and makes them know that indeed Allah has Power to help anyone, but will He help them specifically yes.
Regarding the miracles for Jesus (alaihi salaam), Allah said Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe (Al-Imran 349)
Look at the example of Prophet Abraham (alaihi salaam)
My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead. He said Dost thou not then believe? He said Yea! but to satisfy My own undertaking. (Al-Baqarah 2260)
You see Prophet Abraham (alaihi salaam) had unconditional faith and trust in Allah, but he still beseeched Him for a miracle of giving life to the dead to strengthen his faith and make him a witness of the Power of Allah.
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and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Al-Maidah 5110)
I also forgot to mention, that if all of these acts by Jesus (alaihi salaam) were all metaphorical and "natural", etc., why would the disbelievers accuse him of sihr (sorcery). Evidently, this is another proof that that which Jesus (alaihi salaam) performed were manifest supernatural miracles from Allah.
Sihr means much more then just magic, Sihr means witchcraft, sorcery, eloquence, seduction, falsehood, deception, turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner, anything the source of which is not quite visible, showing off falsehood in the form of truth, mischief.
They accused prophets of showing off falsehood in the form of truth.
What matters is what the truth is. We should always pursue the Truth, no matter how harsh or "illogical" it may appear. Interpreting the Holy Quran based on what you want it to mean and based on your own preconceived notions is immoral and wrong.
Using logic is wrong? No, holding on to traditions written 300 years after the Prophet as complete truths, that is wrong.
The Signs of Allah are for those who already believe, it only strengthens their faith and makes them know that indeed Allah has Power to help anyone, but will He help them specifically yes.
For me, the universe is already a sign enough...
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Peace Arnold
Arnold Warner, I have discussed that issue already before. Two views came out of it. One is that Allah does not change His Ways is only with with handling people. But this in my eyes means, that the Laws that govern His Requital in our Universe with people are the only fixed Laws, through understanding Nature, we can see that all of the Laws in the Universe are fixed, but also, that many Laws that govern His Requital, are intertwined with other Laws of Nature.
Thus by my understanding ALL Laws are fixed and unchangable in the Universe, this is Allah's Kalimaat, Word and Decree
I have already discussed this before in many threads, and I have no time for again going through all the subjects over and over.
I am not asking for another explanation. Kindly quote the verse which you used as evidence to prove against the miracle birth of Jesus that Allahs Law does not change.
I will not trouble you after that, God willing.
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Peace,
634, 6116, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823
There is no changing in God's Ways and Word
4823 This is the Law of God which has been in force since older times. And
never will you find any change in Gods Law. (Sunnatillah = Gods Law in
practice. Kalimatillah = Gods Word = Gods Law in theory 3139, 1777,
3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823)3543 Their arrogance in the land and their evil schemes! Yet an evil scheme
engulfs its designers. Are they waiting for anything but the way the ancients
were dealt with? Yes! No change you will ever find in the Laws of God, and no
deviation you will ever find in the Laws of God.And next to the Revelation, is the whole Universe considered the Kitab, Book, of Allah
638 (There are signs the Universe to behold.) All creatures on earth and all
the birds that fly on two wings are communities like you. We did not omit any
knowledge from this Book. And they all will be gathered to their Lord in the end.Thus no Decree in the Universe will be changed.
As all creatures follow the Laws to fulfill their purpose of existence
2441 Do you not realize that God, He it is Whom all beings in the heavens
and the earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in
columns. All of them know their SALAAT and TASBEEH
God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.This is why we must explore nature
3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how
Gods Laws operate in the Universe) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they
observe, and reflect upon God's creation of the heavens and the earth and
wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above
You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in
attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans
harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they
move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14)This is a very summarized version of a vast subject. I have exams at the moment, and thus cannot engage in a discussion on this subject at the moment.
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Interpreting the Holy Quran based on what you want it to mean and based on your own preconceived notions is immoral and wrong.
hahaha you hypocrite, you are doing the same with ahadith and your entire preconceived notion of what the quran says based on all of these established traditions and views.
so you're just as immoral as any of the rest of us, and just as wrong. enjoy yourself, thanks for the laughs