Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
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looks as if no one has any more objections to my understanding , so to conclude,
The root word HSN has the basic meaning as ," To protect , to lock , to save, to shield " etc, and people who went on the "PROTECTED PATH ", were not all that wrong , but the language of quran meant to convey a certain understanding through its usage.
when we use the word protected , for a women in contrast to lewdness , or Mussafa , it means the women is desirous of protecting herself from committing Fahisha, or we can say she guards herself from out pouring her sexuality in an illegal way, and we have a name for such women, CHASTE WOMEN, OR MOHSINNATS OUT OF NISSA.
The same women , when enter into a bond /nikah /Ahsinna , it means now they are protected , or we can say that these women who protect /want to protect themselves from committing fahishas have another mean or shield , which would further aid them in maintaining Chastity.The building which protects , we name it as "Fortress" , and the same root word when used in connection to dress , we have a name for it again, "BODY ARMOUR"
"Ahsanati Farjaha" means protected sexual organs , which conveys the meaning of "virginity"
Now, if we have no more objections, I ask the concerned forum members to get rid of their faulty understandings , like self protected , engaged self protected , married protected , parent protected etc, but if they still have difficulty comprehending this improved understanding , i will be more than willing to debate and clarify ,as i would like to move on, and untill and unless we correct an important basic , we cannot reslove more complicated issues.
Also, i would request brother Layth to improve upon the translation of relevent verses in the light of this discussion , if he feels appropriate.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
I stand by my explanation.
The meaning of the words been agreed longtime back. The issue was use in the Quraan. I mean every use of HShN.
An objection not being raised does not make you right. If you read through the thread many objections are raised against your theory. Personally I am tired of objecting on this topic since I made my point.
If you are planning to get married I can give you an advice though. Marry an honorable woman.
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peace warner
Have i been so illogical and stupid , that No One wants to engage in a rational discussion with me anymore ?
Am i calling "Qaria al hasna" (Fortress ), A chaste/honorable building?
Did i define "sanna tul laboose" as the "Steel Chastity belt" which some folks made their women use, to prevent them from comitting fornication ?
what does an honorable women cares about the most ? what is the single, most important attribute of your honorable women without which she does not deserve this title ?
When i married , i looked for a woman , who could assure , that she does not need that " lockable steel chastity belt" when i am away.Could you tell me, your one line definnition of word "MOhsinnats" which conveys one consistent meaning ,without contradiction in all the relevent verses of Quran , once again please?
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
Following is my analysis of Mohsanat from an earlier thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php topic=12172.msg91855;topicseen#msg91855
Peace All
The word MohSanat/MuhSinin occurs few times in the Quraan (I have listed the verses below) with regard to laws relating to women. This word is used in important law issues related to marriage, slandering and adultery also related punishments. Almost all translators translated this word as chaste, virtuous, free, independent, married etc. The problem is if you use any of these meanings in all verses there were many contradictions. You have to just read through the thread A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23 to see the amount of confusion these 2 words were causing.
I try to determine below the meaning of this word without contradicting any verse . And most importantly you will notice the simple and intelligent way the Quraan uses this word to communicate its message.
AhSanat Mary is described as AhSanat in 2191 and 6612 to mean committed/dedicated to the temple or Gods service. Mary?s mother committed/devoted her child to the temple in 335 (Muharrar ~ freed from all worldly affairs and specially dedicated to Allah's service). If we take ?protected? as a meaning for AhSanat then it will mean protected by the temple in this context.
2191 Wal lati ahsanat farjaha_ fanafakna_ fiha_ mir ru_hina_ wa ja'alna_ha_ wab naha_ a_yatal lil'a_lamin
6612 Wa maryamab nata imra_nal latu ahsanat farjaha_ fanafahna_ fihi mir ru_hina_ wa sad daqat bikalima_ti rab iha_ wa kutubihi wa ka_nat minal qa_nitin
Mohsanat/Muhsanat means committed or devoted to something or someone. In the following verses it means committed through marriage. And if we use protected, MohSanat should mean protected by (the oath of) marriage.
4 24
Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).
Also (prohibited to you are) women committed (committed to other men/married to other men) except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring commitment not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.
In this verse minan nisa is used to convey no married woman is allowed either believing or from the people of the book.
4 25
Wa mal lam yastati' minkum taulan ay yankihal muhsana_til mu'mina_ti famimma_ malakat aima_nukum min fataya_tikumul mu'mina_t(i), walla_ a'lamu bi ima_nikum, ba'dukum mim ba'd(in), fankihu_hunna bi izni ahlihinna wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i), za_lika liman khasyiyal'anata minkum, wa anbiru_ khairul lakum, walla_hu gafu_rur rahim(un).
If any of you have not the means wherewith to marry believing women committed (to you) they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they be committed not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for committed women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
5 5
Al yauma uhilla lakumut tayyiba_t(u), wa ta'a_mul lazina u_tul kita_ba hillul lakum, wa ta'a_mukum hillul lahum, wal muhsana_tu minal mu'mina_ti wal muhsana_tu minal lazina a_tul kita_ba min qablikum iza_a a_taitumuhunna uju_rahunna muhsinina gaira musa_fihina wa la_ muttakhizi akhda_n(in), wa may yakfur bil ima_ni fa qad habita 'amaluh(u_), wa huwa fil a _khirati minal kha_sirin(a).This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful to you are believing women committed (to you) and women committed (to you) among the people of the book revealed before your time when ye give them their due dowers and desiring commitment not lewdness nor secret intrigues. If anyone rejects faith fruitless is his work and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
In this verse the women referred to (believing and from the people of the book) are lawful to you only after you have married them. Look at the preceding words in all verses .Example ...Lawful to you are....
24 4
Wal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_ti sum ma lam yatu_ bi arba'ati suhada_ a faj lidu_hum sama_nina jaldataw wa la_ taqbalu_ lahum saha_datan abada_ wa ula_ ika humul fa_siqu_n
And those who launch a charge against a committed woman (any married believing woman or married woman from the people of the book) and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors
24 23
In nal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_til ga_fila_til mumina_ti luinu_ fid dun ya_ wal a_hirah wa lahum aza_bun azim
Those who slander believing committed woman and also indiscreet are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty
Warner!
please confirm, is this the explanation that you stand by?
siki
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Peace Siki
What you quoted above is my past understanding when I was chasing to understand Mohsanat as an independent word(same mistake you are doing right now) without concentrating on the term it is used in.
The post below and subsequent posts explain my current status on the issue. Its sad that you have missed so many of my posts.
Peace be with you
I have told my self not to post on Mohsanat unless there is something new to add or question.
I think one major problem in analyzing Mohasanat is we have been analyzing the word Mohsanat independently. Whereas we should analyze the following terms in which the word ?Mohsanat? is used in different connections and contexts.
1 Al Muhsanati ( 244 and 425)
2 Al Muhsanatu min al Nisa ( 424 )
3 Al Muhsanati al Muminati (425 )
4 Al Muhsanati min al Muminati ( 55 )
5 Al Muhsanatu min Allatheena utoo al kitaba (55)
For instance although the word Mohsanat is used in both 424 and 425 we can see two different words ?Nisa? and ?Muminati? are used after ?Mohsanat? in the terms which should give two different meanings to the 2 terms . The two different meanings should justify the very obvious contradiction.
I am not forcing any theories and like to hear your opinion on this.
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Dear warner
I have discussed every occurrence of the relevent word HSN in detail as an independent post. Tell me where is my explanation wrong or illogical ?
what is the big deal about the usage of word Mohsinnat along with a sub category?
what is so difficult about comprehending , the following terms ?
The chaste , out of the women (mohsinnat minan nissa)
The chaste women among believing (mohsinnat minan mominnat)
Or the chaste women among the followers of previous scriptures( mohsinnat minan outul kitab)
And don't you find it logical ,when Mohsinnat is used without any such combination in 24'4 ?
Brother! i initiated this thread when i found a drastic contradiction in 4-24, and 4-25 , and hence , am evaluating and scrutinizing every word that any body writes, (and that includes you too) and am burning mid night oil to improve upon a wrong understanding.
My feeling is, that you have your hands full with multiple threads, and hence you are unable to spare time and due concentration for what i write or explain.
The least i expect off you , is refute precisely with logic and reason, rather than a generalised statement, off the cuff.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
Your explanation on the contradiction of Mohsanat between 424 and 425 is incomplete. (How is it NOT ALLOWED to marry chaste among women but ALLOWED
To marry chaste among muminat.)You omitted a WA/AND in 425.
Your second solution was to have the WA/AND but connect 425 to an unrelated part of 424.
I think you missed the Mohsanat in ?half the punishment as for a Mohsanat? in 425 also.
I wish you post your clear understanding on 424 and 425 and ask someone fluent in Arabic here to check whether your opinion is correct. I remember Samia refuted
the grammar in your construction. -
Peace Siki
I think you missed the Mohsanat in half the punishment as for a Mohsanat in 425 also.
NO i did not , please see my quote down below in Red
Dear ALL
to continue with the analysis , i shall discuss 4-25'
4-25 , if you can not afford to marry a believing mohsinnat , then from MME a fatayat of believing category, nikah them with the permission of their masters,,,,
if due to any reason one is unable to marry a believing mohsinnat , then God is prescribing the next best option, and that is , marry a Mohsinnat who is a maiden and believing out of MME.
and she is to be a maiden , not a widow or divorcee from MME category of MOhsinnats.
After she is bonded ( a mean has been provided with the help of which she can stay chaste/righteous) and even then if , she commits Fahisha , punishment for this sub category of mohsinnats would be half , of what is prescribed for a regular MOHSINNA.
i shall continuepeace
siki
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Peace Siki
Your explanation on the contradiction of Mohsanat between 424 and 425 is incomplete. (How is it NOT ALLOWED to marry chaste among women but ALLOWED To marry chaste among muminat.)
o I did not say that , i am dazed hypno, how casually you have been treating my posts/ explanations.
This wrong interpretation , and its resultant contradiction with all the other verses in Quran, was "The Reason " which prompted me to start this thread, and look for alternate solutions to reach/ correct/improve this anomaly.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
I wish you post your clear understanding on 424 and 425 and ask someone fluent in Arabic here to check whether your opinion is correct. I remember Samia refuted
the grammar in your construction.I don't disrespect my Arabic fluent friends, they are good and helpful, but i humbly submit , that sometimes , the solutions can be reached without their expertise, with a little use of common sense.
Had this been the criteria , we would not have so many good translations by non Arabic speakers. And all of we here ,would not brickwall , trying to sort out a simple WA.peace
siki
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Peace Siki
I made a mistake with the verse numbers.
It is the Wa/And in 424
Also I meant connecting 423 and 424.
Siki marry a Mohsinnat who is a maiden and believing out of MME
This part of the verse does not say Mohsanat
Please explain ?sub category of mohsinnat? and ?regular MOHSINNA?
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Peace Siki
siki wrote, Marry a Mohsinnat who is a maiden and believing out of MME
This part of the verse does not say Mohsanat
I agree , that this part of the verse does not contain the word Mohsinna, but remember i am not quoting a verse word by word here , i am elaborating and writing my own words to explain what God meant to convey.
i justify my understanding of Mohsinnat in this particular case because of 4-23, when it says,
4-23 And the Mohsinnats except MME,,, ( Wal Mohsinnati illa MA malakat emnakum---)
it means "And the mohsinnats except the mohsinnats who belong to MME---
if MME were not mohsinnats,and were a different category,there was no need to insert this important" ILLA MME "
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
Please explain ?sub category of mohsinnat? and ?regular MOHSINNA?
Come on brother! who could be better than you , to appreciate the difference between a regular Mohsinna and someone who is MME ,
who could be a person more appropriate than you, to elaborate on adverse situation of a "Mohsinna coming through MME" channel, and reasons for the concession in punishments in case she committs Fahisha now.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
But dropping a WA from the Quranic verse defy all common sense.
I did not , in all of my posts except the first, which i did by mistake , and when Brother Tanveer pointed out, i corrected it. Here it is in one of my later posts
Dear Warner and Samia.
and now 4-24"AND MOHSANNAT OUT OF NISA EXCEPT MMA GOD?S BOOK IS OVER YOU AND LAWFUL FOR YOU BESIDES THOSE THAT YOU SEEK WITH YOUR WEALTH IN A FAIR RELATIONSHIP NOT MUSAAFIHEEN THEN WHAT BENEFIT YOU DERIVE WITH IT FROM THEM THEN GIVE THEM THEIR DOWERS AS APPOINTED AND NO BLAME UPON YOU WHAT YOU MUTTALLY AGREE WITH"
And we will sort this out too, when you are satisfied with other minor issues regarding the subject word mohsninnat and its usages,
So tell me when you are satisfied and left with no more queries other than this WA.
peacesiki
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Siki 4-23 And the Mohsinnats except MME,,, ( Wal Mohsinnati illa MA malakat emnakum---)
it means "And the mohsinnats except the mohsinnats who belong to MME---
if MME were not mohsinnats,and were a different category,there was no need to insert this important" ILLA MME "
Salaam Brother
You made an error on the verse number above.
Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum???..424
My problem is it is not Mohsanat in 424 it is ?muhsana_tu minan nisa_?
I am sorry for emphasizing the Wa/And on 424 after you have withdrawn that point.
But still I do not get how you solved the contradiction between 424 and 425.
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I am sorry for emphasizing the Wa/And on 424 after you have withdrawn that point.
But still I do not get how you solved the contradiction between 424 and 425.
i have not withdrawn but pended it till i sort out other inquiries.
Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum..424
My problem is it is not Mohsanat in 424 it is muhsana_tu minan nisa_
And the chaste ones out of women excluding the ones belonging to MME --
what exactly is the problem , can you elaborate?peace
siki