Verb taqsuroo in 4:101.

[brook]

M Asad?s translation

AND WHEN you go forth (to war) on earth, you will incur no sin by SHORTENING your prayers if you have reason to fear that those who are bent on denying the truth might suddenly fall upon you for, verily, those who deny the truth are your open foes.

Verb taqsuroo means SHORTEN in the translations like the one above. But a muslim I know objects. He says taqsuroo is intransitive whereas SHORTEN is transitive; so they can not be alike.

Is he right? According to him salaat is Quran instruction rather than contact prayers. He translates the verse like this

AND WHEN you go forth (to war) on earth, you will incur no sin by having to do without your Quran lessons if you have reason to fear that those who are bent on denying the truth might suddenly fall upon you for, verily, those who deny the truth are your open foes.

Thanks in advance for he explanation.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[Q_student]

M Asad?s translation

AND WHEN you go forth (to war) on earth, you will incur no sin by SHORTENING your prayers if you have reason to fear that those who are bent on denying the truth might suddenly fall upon you for, verily, those who deny the truth are your open foes.

Verb taqsuroo means SHORTEN in the translations like the one above. But a muslim I know objects. He says taqsuroo is intransitive whereas SHORTEN is transitive; so they can not be alike.

Is he right? According to him salaat is Quran instruction rather than contact prayers. He translates the verse like this

AND WHEN you go forth (to war) on earth, you will incur no sin by having to do without your Quran lessons if you have reason to fear that those who are bent on denying the truth might suddenly fall upon you for, verily, those who deny the truth are your open foes.

Thanks in advance for he explanation.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

Peace
Dear Brother it is wrong to assume that word "qasara/yaqsuru" is only intransitive .
It used both ways i.e
-Intransitive
-Transitive
For transitive we say

= He shortened the hair
= He shortened the hair
= He contracted or crutailed the "salaat"
= He contracted or curtailed the "salaat"
Referenc Lane's lexicon page 2533
Regards

[Samia]

Peace
Dear Brother it is wrong to assume that word "qasara/yaqsuru" is only intransitive .
It used both ways i.e
-Intransitive
-Transitive
For transitive we say

= He shortened the hair
= He shortened the hair
= He contracted or crutailed the "salaat"
= He contracted or curtailed the "salaat"
Referenc Lane's lexicon page 2533
Regards

Salaam student!

Your example is not correct. The first line has a form II verb and is transitive he shortened the hair (hair is accusative/direct object); but when it's intransitive, it's form I the hair became short (hair is nominative/subject).
So, if you want to say (he contracted/shortened the salaat) analogically it should be . But again, these are the rules of grammarians.

And Hasan, this is an interesting question.

[Q_student]

Salaam student!

Your example is not correct. The first line has a form II verb and is transitive he shortened the hair (hair is accusative/direct object); but when it's intransitive, it's form I the hair became short (hair is nominative/subject).
So, if you want to say (he contracted/shortened the salaat) analogically it should be . But again, these are the rules of grammarians.

And Hasan, this is an interesting question.

Dear Samia
Again you are talking without evidence. Did you look at Lane's lexicon for which I gave the reference?

• ( 13 / 421)

• ( 13 / 422)

Regards

[Samia]

Salaam student!

Just because I did not copy and paste, you think I have no evidence? When I see the dictionary giving form II and form I the same usage and meaning, I believe this is backtranslation to fix this verb for salaat. And Taj al-3aroos and Lane's are the same.

Salaam Hasan, all

Interesting meaning for taqsuroo is to make it earlier than the time of 3ishaa', i.e when the sun starts to be yellowish. This fits well in case of fear, because there's no point in performing salaat when you are afraid, and at night. This meaning is shared by CA dictionaries, and I quote Al-3ain

. .
.

Al-qasr, known, pl. qusuur before the yellowing of the sun, because you decide/limit yourself to something before sun set.
aqsarna we are at that time (i.e. qasr)

[Q_student]

Salaam student!

Just because I did not copy and paste, you think I have no evidence? When I see the dictionary giving form II and form I the same usage and meaning, I believe this is backtranslation to fix this verb for salaat. And Taj al-3aroos and Lane's are the same.

Salaam Hasan, all

Interesting meaning for taqsuroo is to make it earlier than the time of 3ishaa', i.e when the sun starts to be yellowish. This fits well in case of fear, because there's no point in performing salaat when you are afraid, and at night. This meaning is shared by CA dictionaries, and I quote Al-3ain

. .
.

Al-qasr, known, pl. qusuur before the yellowing of the sun, because you decide/limit yourself to something before sun set.
aqsarna we are at that time (i.e. qasr)

Dear Samia
Thanks Allah that you accepted that "Qasara" is used "transitive also"
Here is more evidence

• ( 2 / 80)
  . .

• ( 5 / 95)

• ( 5 / 5

NOTE May I ask you why did you leave this part of the "Kiataabul Ain"???

• ( 2 / 180)
  ( )

Regards

[Samia]

Dear Samia
Thanks Allah that you accepted that "Qasara" is used "transitive also"
Here is more evidence

• ( 2 / 80)
  . .

• ( 5 / 95)

• ( 5 / 5

NOTE May I ask you why did you leave this part of the "Kiataabul Ain"???

• ( 2 / 180)
  ( )

Regards

Salaam student!
Where did I accept that?! This verb "qasartu alsalaat performed it at the time of qasr" has nothing to do with "qasartu alsalaat I shortened the prayers (which is a wrong usage of the verb qassara to shorten something).
You are a blind believer of grammar and grammariens, yet you do not criticize this error

.
and

( )
Where in sentence 1 the verb has a preposition, which magically disappeared when it changed into a vebal noun. Grammarians say that if a verb has preposition, this preposition is part of it, and will not disappear at all. Imagine saying I came home; then change it to verbal noun (coming home ). Is this correct?!

And the even bigger error

Why didn't he continue with the verbal noun of form II and say ? Because this will be very funny, and will show how the verb does not mean "to shorten". Again, grammarians know verb forms and understand their purpose no verb of a form will be synonymos to a verb of the same root and different form. Especially in forms I and II, which are very different. But they seem to betray the rules to force their agenda.
The verb "qasara" I used to explain the verse has a different meaning and is not the same verb that means (to become short; which is qasura).

To your last question I hope you understand why I left that part of kitabul 3ain because I smell a twisting of rules. I use the dictionary to help me, but I know they can twist the meaning, and I can easily find out where they do, by breaking the universal rules of Arabic. In suchh cases I do not trust what they say in that context of rule breaking and will not take it.

[Q_student]

Salaam student!
Where did I accept that?! This verb "qasartu alsalaat performed it at the time of qasr" has nothing to do with "qasartu alsalaat I shortened the prayers (which is a wrong usage of the verb qassara to shorten something).
You are a blind believer of grammar and grammariens, yet you do not criticize this error

.
and

( )
Where in sentence 1 the verb has a preposition, which magically disappeared when it changed into a vebal noun. Grammarians say that if a verb has preposition, this preposition is part of it, and will not disappear at all. Imagine saying I came home; then change it to verbal noun (coming home ). Is this correct?!

And the even bigger error

Why didn't he continue with the verbal noun of form II and say ? Because this will be very funny, and will show how the verb does not mean "to shorten". Again, grammarians know verb forms and understand their purpose no verb of a form will be synonymos to a verb of the same root and different form. Especially in forms I and II, which are very different. But they seem to betray the rules to force their agenda.
The verb "qasara" I used to explain the verse has a different meaning and is not the same verb that means (to become short; which is qasura).

To your last question I hope you understand why I left that part of kitabul 3ain because I smell a twisting of rules. I use the dictionary to help me, but I know they can twist the meaning, and I can easily find out where they do, by breaking the universal rules of Arabic. In suchh cases I do not trust what they say in that context of rule breaking and will not take it.

Dear Samia
Whatever you say You and I are not authorities at all.
Our knowledge is far limited to comment on the Grammarians and Lexicologists.
But anyone can say anything ,no one can stop. But the fact is a fact.
You intentionally left that part of "Kitaabul Ain" because that was contradicting your idea.
Regards

[Samia]

You intentionally left that part of "Kitaabul Ain" because that was contradicting your idea.
Regards

Salaam student!
Instead of evaluating my honesty, do some work and study the few shortcomings of grammarians that I posted, then build your evaluation on firm grounds.
And is my idea not based on the meanings given in the dictionary?
Saying that "qasara alsalaat" means "shorten the salaat" is not only linguistically wrong, but it confirms that the salaat has a specific length which we were not told of in the qur'aan.
Now be honest and tell me how long is the salaat and how much should it be shortened?

[Q_student]

Salaam student!
Instead of evaluating my honesty, do some work and study the few shortcomings of grammarians that I posted, then build your evaluation on firm grounds.
And is my idea not based on the meanings given in the dictionary?
Saying that "qasara alsalaat" means "shorten the salaat" is not only linguistically wrong, but it confirms that the salaat has a specific length which we were not told of in the qur'aan.
Now be honest and tell me how long is the salaat and how much should it be shortened?

How much to shorten the "salaat" is not the field of the linguistics. It is the Quran which has to establish not the grammarian or lexicologist. Since for the time being we are not able to establish the quantity of shotening , it does not mean we start manupulating the words and their meanings.
Do not expect mangoes from banana tree.

HERE ARE SOME TRANSLATION FROM EXPERTS
004.101
YUSUFALI When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
PICKTHAL And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
SHAKIR And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.

EXPOSITION BY G A PERVAIZ

When you set out on a journey and apprehend danger from your enemy, there is no harm if you shorten your Sal?at. The K?afireen are your open enemies.

MUHAMMAD ASAD
4101

AND WHEN you go forth on earth, you will incur no sin by shortening your prayers127 if you have reason to fear that those who are bent on denying the truth might suddenly fall upon you128 for, verily, those who deny the truth are your open foes

Regards

[Samia]

How much to shorten the "salaat" is not the field of the linguistics. It is the Quran which has to establish not the grammarian or lexicologist. Since for the time being we are not able to establish the quantity of shotening , it does not mean we start manupulating the words and their meanings.
Do not expect mangoes from banana tree.
Regards

Salaam student

Don't go into circles. When the dictionaries say that "ma malakat aymanukum" means slaves/sex slaves, do you accept it because they said so or not? Why?
When the dictionaries tell you that nasakha means to copy and also means to delete, do you accept it or not, and why?
My reference in understanding any word is the qur'aan. No matter which one, or how many grammarians say what, if it contradicts the qur'aan, I ignore it. I do not know what your refernce is. But definitely not the qur'aan.

Since for the time being we are not able to establish the quantity of shotening

Is it a matter of time until we know how long the salaat is? Why don't you say it directly 24434 ? This is what the dictionary authors believe and adjust the meaning to shorten it to 22232.

[Q_student]

Salaam student

Don't go into circles. When the dictionaries say that "ma malakat aymanukum" means slaves/sex slaves, do you accept it because they said so or not? Why?
When the dictionaries tell you that nasakha means to copy and also means to delete, do you accept it or not, and why?
My reference in understanding any word is the qur'aan. No matter which one, or how many grammarians say what, if it contradicts the qur'aan, I ignore it. I do not know what your refernce is. But definitely not the qur'aan.
Is it a matter of time until we know how long the salaat is? Why don't you say it directly 24434 ? This is what the dictionary authors believe and adjust the meaning to shorten it to 22232.

Dear Samia
Stick to your understanding ,I do not force you to accept what these authorities say.Naturally no one can.
There is no solution for state of denial.
Regards

[Samia]

Dear Samia
Stick to your understanding
Regards

I will until I find a counter convincing argument.

[unknownuser]

Dear Samia
Stick to your understanding ,I do not force you to accept what these authorities say.Naturally no one can.
There is no solution for state of denial.
Regards

ah, one more obsession people! i.e AUTHORITIES

SubhanAllah

[brook]

http//fotogaleri.samanyoluhaber.com/galeri/615/2
Turkish soldiers perform their prayer during a lull at the War of the Dardanelles, 1915.

In another debate in this forum nerspi asks what were people doing in 4102? work out? train?

War is killing and dying on the front where no training happens, just like the performance of tragedy on the stage during which no training happens.

The people in 4102 were definitely practicing a salat consisting of 1 standing + 1 prostration.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[Wakas]

The people in 4102 were definitely practicing a salat consisting of 1 standing + 1 prostration.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419

Going by other usage also. The Quranic evidence is weighted in favour of sjd not meaning a physical prostration. This is FACT.

[brook]

Wakas

1. There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words.

AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.

2. To do this whenever we heard God's words it would be impractical/dangerous.

Prostration is definitely phisical as is examplified by prosrtation to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137), but the expression to the chin is idiomatic. Samia (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.75)

108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,
It is clear that "fall to the hin" is an (idiomatic) expression and that their reaction was that of being humble ( ; sajada kasha3a to be humble/fearful)

3. 4102 already tells us that salat ends upon sjd, so if salat involves reciting or listening to God's words (which is what AQ strongly implies) then pretty much as soon as salat began, we would have to fall to the chin in sjd, thus ending the salat as per 4102, meaning it would last less than 20 seconds!

Believers are people of common sense to remember God by sitting long enough after sjd before quitting salaat. Even if you refuse that they have that much common sense, there is standing to rememeber God in salaat's 1 satanding + 1 sjd practice in 4102.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[Q_student]

Wakas

1. There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words.

AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.

2. To do this whenever we heard God's words it would be impractical/dangerous.

Prostration is definitely phisical as is examplified by prosrtation to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137), but the expression to the chin is idiomatic. Samia (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.75)

108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,
It is clear that "fall to the hin" is an (idiomatic) expression and that their reaction was that of being humble ( ; sajada kasha3a to be humble/fearful)

3. 4102 already tells us that salat ends upon sjd, so if salat involves reciting or listening to God's words (which is what AQ strongly implies) then pretty much as soon as salat began, we would have to fall to the chin in sjd, thus ending the salat as per 4102, meaning it would last less than 20 seconds!

Believers are people of common sense to remember God by sitting long enough after sjd before quitting salaat. Even if you refuse that they have that much common sense, there is standing to rememeber God in salaat's 1 satanding + 1 sjd practice in 4102.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

Peace
In fact sister Samia put only one part of the meaning of the word "sajada". I do not know the reason why she avoided the second part of the meaning. This word has both meanings
1Humbleness /Submissiveness
2Bending

• ( 1 / 12166)
  to prostrate oneself (in worship), genuflect, kneel (with the forehead touching the ground), bow (down), throw oneself down, fall down in adoration; to worship (God)

• ( 3 / 133)
  (&#1583 .
  Regards

[Samia]

Peace
In fact sister Samia put only one part of the meaning of the word "sajada". I do not know the reason why she avoided the second part of the meaning.

I do not know why you are putting this here. This will derail the thread further to the meaning of sjd.
But yes, I look into the root meaning, and any meaning that is logically derived from it, not from a preconception. Did the dictionaris give context for the usage of this word other from "religion"? It's interesting to mention that in Sudan, sjd is also used to describe the state of someone in a terminal illness or in a state of very old age, as if saying they are submitting to death. It reflects the real meaning of the verb. In the quraan we are told that the sun and the planets did sujuud. How did they bend? This word has been extensively discussed.
Learn how to make use of dictionaries and how to recognize the preconceptions in them. Don't make them your mullas.

[Q_student]

I do not know why you are putting this here. This will derail the thread further to the meaning of sjd.
But yes, I look into the root meaning, and any meaning that is logically derived from it, not from a preconception. Did the dictionaris give context for the usage of this word other from "religion"? It's interesting to mention that in Sudan, sjd is also used to describe the state of someone in a terminal illness or in a state of very old age, as if saying they are submitting to death. It reflects the real meaning of the verb. In the quraan we are told that the sun and the planets did sujuud. How did they bend? This word has been extensively discussed.
Learn how to make use of dictionaries and how to recognize the preconceptions in them. Don't make them your mullas.

Dear sister
I will not comment who does not know how to consult dictionary or interpret it. I can give examples but I will not do it.These are not my mullahs. But I hate to issue Quranic Certificates to PROSTITUTION in the name of Quran and tacit support to this idea.
Quran is in Arabic Language for understanding. It cannot afford home made meanings and ideas.
Regards