Verb taqsuroo in 4:101.
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Salaam student!
Just because I did not copy and paste, you think I have no evidence? When I see the dictionary giving form II and form I the same usage and meaning, I believe this is backtranslation to fix this verb for salaat. And Taj al-3aroos and Lane's are the same.
Salaam Hasan, all
Interesting meaning for taqsuroo is to make it earlier than the time of 3ishaa', i.e when the sun starts to be yellowish. This fits well in case of fear, because there's no point in performing salaat when you are afraid, and at night. This meaning is shared by CA dictionaries, and I quote Al-3ain
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.Al-qasr, known, pl. qusuur before the yellowing of the sun, because you decide/limit yourself to something before sun set.
aqsarna we are at that time (i.e. qasr)Dear Samia
Thanks Allah that you accepted that "Qasara" is used "transitive also"
Here is more evidence-
( 2 / 80)
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( 5 / 95)
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( 5 / 5
NOTE May I ask you why did you leave this part of the "Kiataabul Ain"???
- ( 2 / 180)
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Regards
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Dear Samia
Thanks Allah that you accepted that "Qasara" is used "transitive also"
Here is more evidence-
( 2 / 80)
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( 5 / 95)
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( 5 / 5
NOTE May I ask you why did you leave this part of the "Kiataabul Ain"???
- ( 2 / 180)
( )
Regards
Salaam student!
Where did I accept that?! This verb "qasartu alsalaat performed it at the time of qasr" has nothing to do with "qasartu alsalaat I shortened the prayers (which is a wrong usage of the verb qassara to shorten something).
You are a blind believer of grammar and grammariens, yet you do not criticize this error.
and( )
Where in sentence 1 the verb has a preposition, which magically disappeared when it changed into a vebal noun. Grammarians say that if a verb has preposition, this preposition is part of it, and will not disappear at all. Imagine saying I came home; then change it to verbal noun (coming home ). Is this correct?!And the even bigger error
Why didn't he continue with the verbal noun of form II and say ? Because this will be very funny, and will show how the verb does not mean "to shorten". Again, grammarians know verb forms and understand their purpose no verb of a form will be synonymos to a verb of the same root and different form. Especially in forms I and II, which are very different. But they seem to betray the rules to force their agenda.
The verb "qasara" I used to explain the verse has a different meaning and is not the same verb that means (to become short; which is qasura).To your last question I hope you understand why I left that part of kitabul 3ain because I smell a twisting of rules. I use the dictionary to help me, but I know they can twist the meaning, and I can easily find out where they do, by breaking the universal rules of Arabic. In suchh cases I do not trust what they say in that context of rule breaking and will not take it.
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Salaam student!
Where did I accept that?! This verb "qasartu alsalaat performed it at the time of qasr" has nothing to do with "qasartu alsalaat I shortened the prayers (which is a wrong usage of the verb qassara to shorten something).
You are a blind believer of grammar and grammariens, yet you do not criticize this error.
and( )
Where in sentence 1 the verb has a preposition, which magically disappeared when it changed into a vebal noun. Grammarians say that if a verb has preposition, this preposition is part of it, and will not disappear at all. Imagine saying I came home; then change it to verbal noun (coming home ). Is this correct?!And the even bigger error
Why didn't he continue with the verbal noun of form II and say ? Because this will be very funny, and will show how the verb does not mean "to shorten". Again, grammarians know verb forms and understand their purpose no verb of a form will be synonymos to a verb of the same root and different form. Especially in forms I and II, which are very different. But they seem to betray the rules to force their agenda.
The verb "qasara" I used to explain the verse has a different meaning and is not the same verb that means (to become short; which is qasura).To your last question I hope you understand why I left that part of kitabul 3ain because I smell a twisting of rules. I use the dictionary to help me, but I know they can twist the meaning, and I can easily find out where they do, by breaking the universal rules of Arabic. In suchh cases I do not trust what they say in that context of rule breaking and will not take it.
Dear Samia
Whatever you say You and I are not authorities at all.
Our knowledge is far limited to comment on the Grammarians and Lexicologists.
But anyone can say anything ,no one can stop. But the fact is a fact.
You intentionally left that part of "Kitaabul Ain" because that was contradicting your idea.
Regards -
You intentionally left that part of "Kitaabul Ain" because that was contradicting your idea.
RegardsSalaam student!
Instead of evaluating my honesty, do some work and study the few shortcomings of grammarians that I posted, then build your evaluation on firm grounds.
And is my idea not based on the meanings given in the dictionary?
Saying that "qasara alsalaat" means "shorten the salaat" is not only linguistically wrong, but it confirms that the salaat has a specific length which we were not told of in the qur'aan.
Now be honest and tell me how long is the salaat and how much should it be shortened? -
Salaam student!
Instead of evaluating my honesty, do some work and study the few shortcomings of grammarians that I posted, then build your evaluation on firm grounds.
And is my idea not based on the meanings given in the dictionary?
Saying that "qasara alsalaat" means "shorten the salaat" is not only linguistically wrong, but it confirms that the salaat has a specific length which we were not told of in the qur'aan.
Now be honest and tell me how long is the salaat and how much should it be shortened?How much to shorten the "salaat" is not the field of the linguistics. It is the Quran which has to establish not the grammarian or lexicologist. Since for the time being we are not able to establish the quantity of shotening , it does not mean we start manupulating the words and their meanings.
Do not expect mangoes from banana tree.HERE ARE SOME TRANSLATION FROM EXPERTS
004.101
YUSUFALI When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
PICKTHAL And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
SHAKIR And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.EXPOSITION BY G A PERVAIZ
When you set out on a journey and apprehend danger from your enemy, there is no harm if you shorten your Sal?at. The K?afireen are your open enemies.
MUHAMMAD ASAD
4101AND WHEN you go forth on earth, you will incur no sin by shortening your prayers127 if you have reason to fear that those who are bent on denying the truth might suddenly fall upon you128 for, verily, those who deny the truth are your open foes
Regards
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How much to shorten the "salaat" is not the field of the linguistics. It is the Quran which has to establish not the grammarian or lexicologist. Since for the time being we are not able to establish the quantity of shotening , it does not mean we start manupulating the words and their meanings.
Do not expect mangoes from banana tree.
RegardsSalaam student
Don't go into circles. When the dictionaries say that "ma malakat aymanukum" means slaves/sex slaves, do you accept it because they said so or not? Why?
When the dictionaries tell you that nasakha means to copy and also means to delete, do you accept it or not, and why?
My reference in understanding any word is the qur'aan. No matter which one, or how many grammarians say what, if it contradicts the qur'aan, I ignore it. I do not know what your refernce is. But definitely not the qur'aan.Since for the time being we are not able to establish the quantity of shotening
Is it a matter of time until we know how long the salaat is? Why don't you say it directly 24434 ? This is what the dictionary authors believe and adjust the meaning to shorten it to 22232.
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Salaam student
Don't go into circles. When the dictionaries say that "ma malakat aymanukum" means slaves/sex slaves, do you accept it because they said so or not? Why?
When the dictionaries tell you that nasakha means to copy and also means to delete, do you accept it or not, and why?
My reference in understanding any word is the qur'aan. No matter which one, or how many grammarians say what, if it contradicts the qur'aan, I ignore it. I do not know what your refernce is. But definitely not the qur'aan.
Is it a matter of time until we know how long the salaat is? Why don't you say it directly 24434 ? This is what the dictionary authors believe and adjust the meaning to shorten it to 22232.Dear Samia
Stick to your understanding ,I do not force you to accept what these authorities say.Naturally no one can.
There is no solution for state of denial.
Regards -
Dear Samia
Stick to your understanding ,I do not force you to accept what these authorities say.Naturally no one can.
There is no solution for state of denial.
Regardsah, one more obsession people! i.e AUTHORITIES
SubhanAllah
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http//fotogaleri.samanyoluhaber.com/galeri/615/2
Turkish soldiers perform their prayer during a lull at the War of the Dardanelles, 1915.In another debate in this forum nerspi asks what were people doing in 4102? work out? train?
War is killing and dying on the front where no training happens, just like the performance of tragedy on the stage during which no training happens.
The people in 4102 were definitely practicing a salat consisting of 1 standing + 1 prostration.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
The people in 4102 were definitely practicing a salat consisting of 1 standing + 1 prostration.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419
Going by other usage also. The Quranic evidence is weighted in favour of sjd not meaning a physical prostration. This is FACT.
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Wakas
- There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words.
AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.
- To do this whenever we heard God's words it would be impractical/dangerous.
Prostration is definitely phisical as is examplified by prosrtation to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137), but the expression to the chin is idiomatic. Samia (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.75)
108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,
It is clear that "fall to the hin" is an (idiomatic) expression and that their reaction was that of being humble ( ; sajada kasha3a to be humble/fearful)- 4102 already tells us that salat ends upon sjd, so if salat involves reciting or listening to God's words (which is what AQ strongly implies) then pretty much as soon as salat began, we would have to fall to the chin in sjd, thus ending the salat as per 4102, meaning it would last less than 20 seconds!
Believers are people of common sense to remember God by sitting long enough after sjd before quitting salaat. Even if you refuse that they have that much common sense, there is standing to rememeber God in salaat's 1 satanding + 1 sjd practice in 4102.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Wakas
- There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words.
AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.
- To do this whenever we heard God's words it would be impractical/dangerous.
Prostration is definitely phisical as is examplified by prosrtation to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137), but the expression to the chin is idiomatic. Samia (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.75)
108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,
It is clear that "fall to the hin" is an (idiomatic) expression and that their reaction was that of being humble ( ; sajada kasha3a to be humble/fearful)- 4102 already tells us that salat ends upon sjd, so if salat involves reciting or listening to God's words (which is what AQ strongly implies) then pretty much as soon as salat began, we would have to fall to the chin in sjd, thus ending the salat as per 4102, meaning it would last less than 20 seconds!
Believers are people of common sense to remember God by sitting long enough after sjd before quitting salaat. Even if you refuse that they have that much common sense, there is standing to rememeber God in salaat's 1 satanding + 1 sjd practice in 4102.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ayPeace
In fact sister Samia put only one part of the meaning of the word "sajada". I do not know the reason why she avoided the second part of the meaning. This word has both meanings
1Humbleness /Submissiveness
2Bending-
( 1 / 12166)
to prostrate oneself (in worship), genuflect, kneel (with the forehead touching the ground), bow (down), throw oneself down, fall down in adoration; to worship (God) -
( 3 / 133)
(د .
Regards
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Peace
In fact sister Samia put only one part of the meaning of the word "sajada". I do not know the reason why she avoided the second part of the meaning.I do not know why you are putting this here. This will derail the thread further to the meaning of sjd.
But yes, I look into the root meaning, and any meaning that is logically derived from it, not from a preconception. Did the dictionaris give context for the usage of this word other from "religion"? It's interesting to mention that in Sudan, sjd is also used to describe the state of someone in a terminal illness or in a state of very old age, as if saying they are submitting to death. It reflects the real meaning of the verb. In the quraan we are told that the sun and the planets did sujuud. How did they bend? This word has been extensively discussed.
Learn how to make use of dictionaries and how to recognize the preconceptions in them. Don't make them your mullas. -
I do not know why you are putting this here. This will derail the thread further to the meaning of sjd.
But yes, I look into the root meaning, and any meaning that is logically derived from it, not from a preconception. Did the dictionaris give context for the usage of this word other from "religion"? It's interesting to mention that in Sudan, sjd is also used to describe the state of someone in a terminal illness or in a state of very old age, as if saying they are submitting to death. It reflects the real meaning of the verb. In the quraan we are told that the sun and the planets did sujuud. How did they bend? This word has been extensively discussed.
Learn how to make use of dictionaries and how to recognize the preconceptions in them. Don't make them your mullas.Dear sister
I will not comment who does not know how to consult dictionary or interpret it. I can give examples but I will not do it.These are not my mullahs. But I hate to issue Quranic Certificates to PROSTITUTION in the name of Quran and tacit support to this idea.
Quran is in Arabic Language for understanding. It cannot afford home made meanings and ideas.
Regards -
peace Hasan,
AQ = Al Quran
AQ says those particular people did it rather than anyone.
Ahh, so you are implying it was only specific to them, and not relevant for others? Hmm, for sake of argument lets say thats true, what do you make of
And when the Qur'an is being read unto them, they do not sjd.
The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall sjd, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
According to you, are we meant to physically prostrate whenever hearing AQ? Yes or no?
Or is this specific to them too?Prostration is definitely phisical as is examplified by prosrtation to the sun and the moon (2724, 4137)
This is a commonly cited example in support of prostration. What is seemingly not realised is that several Classical Arabic meanings of sjd can fit in these occurrences, making physical prostration not the only option, e.g. submissive, worship, adore, make obeisance, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect.
Please note, "ila" means to/for.
Re 2724
AQ clarifies it was their "deeds" (plural) that were made pleasing/good/acceptable/fair to them by "satan".
what diverted/prevented her and her people was their ibadat/servitude of other than God
Note the difference in the wording between found/wajad sjd in 2724, and Joseph seeing/raay sjd in 124.In other words, the rest of the Quranic evidence is against sjd/prostration in this verse. Your only evidence is the word can theoretically mean prostration here. That is also likely why no-one has (as far as I'm aware) and likely never will write an article analysing the occurrences of sjd in AQ attempting to prove it means physical prostration, as they know or would discover they have so little "evidence" to work with the article would end up disproving their case.
Believers are people of common sense to remember God by sitting long enough after sjd before quitting salaat. Even if you refuse that they have that much common sense, there is standing to rememeber God in salaat's 1 satanding + 1 sjd practice in 4102.
Are you implying that people are expected to have more common sense than the wording of AQ???? This is a conceptual impossibility/contradiction.
Allow me re-state what I said in no uncertain terms
The evidence from AQ is heavily weighted in favour of sjd NOT meaning a physical prostration. This is FACT. The main point in the examples you bring is that prostration is not the only possibility, however in the other examples AQ can bring it is an impossibility for it to mean prostration, and that is not even including other verses where it is unlikely. People can make of this what they wish.I recommend reading the following thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.0
In any case, at least we can agree that "sjd to the chin" is an idiomatic expression.
To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.
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http//www.19.org/index.php?aid=276
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Dear sister
I will not comment who does not know how to consult dictionary or interpret it. I can give examples but I will not do it.These are not my mullahs. But I hate to issue Quranic Certificates to PROSTITUTION in the name of Quran and tacit support to this idea.
Quran is in Arabic Language for understanding. It cannot afford home made meanings and ideas.
RegardsI consider this a baseles attack and defamation. I demand that you give your evidence where I gave such certificate, implictly or explicitly.
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http//www.19.org/index.php?aid=276
The above article does not prove "prostration" and I dont think it is an attempt to. It seems to be about proving a physical component is possible in sjd.
However, the article brought up one point that could have interesting consequences, which I had not realised until now after putting the peices together.
The correlation (or making equivalent) of
the sjd and fall/khrr sjd to/for him
AND
the sjd and fall/khrr sjdBefore discussing the consequences, 124 and 12100 needs clarified, because in some translations (e.g. M.Asad, free-minds) they say/imply Joseph and his parents fell sjd to Him (as in God), but this is not correct according to 124 because in his dream Joseph saw sjd to/for/before him, not God. Some take it to mean Joseph's parents fell sjd to/for Joseph, but this is also not correct, because the plural is used for khrr, meaning 3 or more, and since in 1293 it clearly implies those who returned to be in the company of Joseph were his family (e.g. brothers) and parents, likely 11 family members and the sun and moon in his dream being symbolic for his parents, we can see why the plural is used. Interestingly, M.Asad in his notes on 12100 says earlier "scholars" said it cannot be sjd/prostrate to Joseph, as it is inconceivable that Joseph would have allowed this. Also see 2725. Can we all see what is going on here?
Also, whenever fall/khrr is used in the context of revelation, it is obviously idiomatic. Therefore, if the case is strong for non-prostration usage in "fall sjd", we can then apply this to 12100 and see what happens.
Since Joseph was in authority and in a position to issue commands to be followed, similar to the examples for God and His revelations, "fall sjd" can mean the exact same thing in both cases. That is why the earlier "scholars" cited by M.Asad had difficulty reconciling a physical prostration to Joseph, as this is inconceivable conceptually for them, they opted for "fall sjd" to Him (as in God). Since we know this is blatantly incorrect according to 124, we are left with only one option "they fell sjd to/for Joseph". Of course, earlier "scholars" may not have considered the non-prostration option or tried to explain their understanding away*, due to their bias/upbringing that taught them sjd means physical prostration.
Essentially, the traditional understanding is treating an idiomatic expression as literal sometimes (i.e. when it suits them) and non-literal other times (i.e. when it suits them). This haphazrd manner is not the word/logical precision par excellence that is AQ.*see altafsir.com in which Tafsir al-Jalalayn says "fell sjd" means a bow and not a prostration. Elswhere sjd means prostration however.
Now onto the consequences of the point raised in the article, which I will quote below
"Most times it is preceded by the word "Khar'a" (fall down), which adds to "prostration" to let us know that it is indeed physical prostration. If "prostration" was automatically understood as physical, there would be no need to add "Khar'a" along with it." He later quotes verse 12100 which describes how Joseph's vision/dream was fulfilled. That verse uses the words "fall" and "prostrate" together. But, Layth forgets that in the beginning of the chapter, Joseph's vision that describes the very event described in 12100 uses ONLY one word SaJeDeen, which means "they were prostrating."
Here, the article uses the correlation between 124 and 12100 to imply it does mean "prostration", BUT using the same logic, what about the correlation between the sjd and fall/khrr sjd (i.e. the exact same comparison)? If you are equating them in 124 and 12100, then if you take prostration for one, you should take prostration for the other, otherwise it will be logically inconsistant and/or a contradiction in one's views. Thus, the implication is, whenever one hears AQ, they should physically prostrate if one holds the same view as the article on this point.
Unless, it can be explained away of course.Of course, with the recent evidence on 4102, we know "fall sjd" can only be idiomatic / non-physical, but for those with a sjd/prostration understanding, they are between a rock and a hard place, as the idiomatic expression goes.
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@ Wakas
I am not sure if you fully understood the article. Nevertheless I will quote the following from it
Layth makes an interesting point "Most times it is preceded by the word "Khar'a" (fall down), which adds to "prostration" to let us know that it is indeed physical prostration. If "prostration" was automatically understood as physical, there would be no need to add "Khar'a" along with it." He later quotes verse 12100 which describes how Joseph's vision/dream was fulfilled. That verse uses the words "fall" and "prostrate" together. But, Layth forgets that in the beginning of the chapter, Joseph's vision that describes the very event described in 12100 uses ONLY one word SaJeDeen, which means "they were prostrating."
So it is both phyiscal and mental.
