Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca
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Ahmed , What is the Hadith on Hajj to Jerusalem.
I think Ahmed means this one ?Do not set out on a journey except to three Mosques Al-Masjid Al-Haram, the Mosque of God?s Apostle and the Mosque of Al-Aqsa ? although there is no specification of "journey" being "Hajj" ; as for most of the hadiths, nobody can be sure if the prophet PBUH ever said it.
I remember that Gadhafi, a little bit in conflict with Saudis, once invited "his" citizens to "hajj" to Jerusalem and some lybians did!!! rotfl I don't remember the year it occurred...
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Peace All,
Full respect to all.
Someone suggested to me that
258 And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish. And enter the passageway by crouching, and say "Our load is removed," so that your errors will be forgiven, and We will increase for the good doers."
Seeing the context, 247 and other posts, "this" town was Jerusalem and if you don't look at the quotes (are there quotes in the Arabic? I know little.) then "this" would surely be the same place as it was being revealed to Muhammad at the time.
And also
2126 And Abraham said "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations from the Sanctuary with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."Reading the context, I think that both "this" in 258 and 2126 would be referring to the same town right? What you think?
May God Guide.
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Peace warner,
Thanks for showing the arabic difference of two verses.
Now as for 258 alone, are there quotes in the Arabic? If no, then, "this" would surely be the same place as it was being revealed to Muhammad at the time. (it is not enter "that" town).
What you think?
May God Guide
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Salaam warner,
The question was that
Someone suggested to me that
258 And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish. And enter the passageway by crouching, and say "Our load is removed," so that your errors will be forgiven, and We will increase for the good doers."
Seeing the context, 247 and other posts, "this" town was Jerusalem and if you don't look at the quotes (are there quotes in the Arabic? I know little.) then "this" would surely be the same place as it was being revealed to Muhammad at the time. (it is not "enter "that" town". So Muhammad was at Jerusalem, and it goes well with Layth's "Where was Muhammad" article. (at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm)
So I ask what do you think of this possibility? Is it also relevant evidence to show that the kaaba is at Jerusalem?
May God Guide
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Salaam Zidane
The quotation is because the verse says ?We said?. Allah is addressing the Children of Israel.
The verse is to do with Children of Israel its connected to 257
There is no mention of Jerusalem in the Quraan directly. But as you suggest there is evidence That many past messengers lived in and around Jerusalem.
I did not understand how you connected 247 to the issue in question.
2 47
Yusuf Ali O children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favor which I bestowed upon You and that I preferred you to all others (for My message).Transliteration Ya_ bani isra_'ilaz kuru_ ni'matiyal lati an'amtu 'alaikum wa anni faddaltukum 'alal 'a_lamin(a).
There are many good points in Layths article. But according to my opinion he got Bakkah wrong and also facing the Holy of the Holies as the qibla is out. No historical record says Jerusalem is Bakkah. The prophet was sent mainly to the gentiles, the Arabs not to the Jews or the Christians. Muhammad from Jerusalem speaking Arabic and trying to be a messenger to the Arabs is a quite weak argument .So he can not be from Jerusalem. But I will not say he is from Mecca either.
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Salaam warner,
Thanks for your reply and comments.As for 247 it connects that who God was addressing to, exactly like you said "Allah is addressing the Children of Israel."
As for the Bakka issue, at least the verses that refer to Bakka is different from the verse that is saying about Mecca.
The prophet was sent mainly to the gentiles, the Arabs not to the Jews or the Christians. Muhammad from Jerusalem speaking Arabic and trying to be a messenger to the Arabs is a quite weak argument .So he can not be from Jerusalem. But I will not say he is from Mecca either.
Well, as we all see, so much content of the Quran is addressing the children of Israel and the Christians(Nazarenes), as well as mankind.
For example chapter 2
240 O Children of Israel, remember My blessings that I had blessed you with, and fulfill your pledge to Me that I may fulfill My pledge to you, and revere Me alone.
247 O Children of Israel, remember My blessings that I had blessed you with, and that I had preferred you to all the worlds!
283 And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except God, and regard your parents, and regard the relatives, and orphans, and needy, and say kind things to the people, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment." But then you turned away, except a few of you; you were objecting.
2122 O Children of Israel, remember My blessings that I have bestowed upon you, and that I have preferred you over all the worlds.I think, How could this be if there were just a few of them in the area where it was revealed? Now this is exactly the same addresing as what Jesus did
616 And when Jesus, son of Mary, said "O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be 'most acclaimed.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said "This is clearly magic"
This also supports that Muhammad was at least having some the same audience that Jesus had the children of Israel.
As for the Nazarenes, For example (surely there are many more verses...)
582 You will find the people with the greatest animosity towards those who believe are the Jews and those who have set up partners; and you will find the closest in affection to those who believe are those who said "We are Nazarenes;" that is because amongst them are Priests and Monks, and they are not arrogant.
Here are some verses addressing "O people of the Scripture" (the list is much longer than this...)
364 Say "O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common understanding between us and between you; that we do not serve except God, and do not set up anything at all with Him, and that none of us takes each other as patrons beside God." If they turn away, then say "Bear witness that we have submitted."
365 "O people of the Scripture, why do you debate us regarding Abraham when the Torah and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not understand?"
369 A group from the people of the Scripture wished that they could misguide you, but they only misguide themselves and they do not notice.
370 "O people of the Scripture, why do you reject God's signs while you are bearing witness?"
371 "O people of the Scripture, why do you dress the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"It could well be that they were speaking arabic in the areas, like the arab christians that still do today. That's why God is clearly addresing them in Arabic as the verses say clearly. I don't see that Muhammad was a messenger particularly or more mainly to the Arabs only, because so much content is addresing the Children of Israel and the Chirstians and so many verses addressing whole mankind who came to believe. (Yes, Muhammad is a messenger to mankind, but here were trying to see where he was living and the kaaba)
As for reference to Arabs, I just found
(Yes, the translation of "Nomads" in the Arabic text is read as "arabs", see the arabic text... )Chapter 9
990 And those who had an excuse from among the Nomads came so permission would be given to them, and those who denied God and His messenger simply stayed behind. Those who rejected from them will be inflicted with a painful retribution.
997 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.
998 And from the Nomads are some who look upon what they spend as a fine, and wait for misfortune upon you. They will have the misfortune of evil, and God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.
999 And from the Nomads are those who believe in God and the Last Day, and he looks upon what he spends to make him closer to God, and the connections of the messenger. It indeed makes them closer. God will admit them in His mercy; God is Forgiving, Merciful.
9101 And from the Nomads around you are hypocrites, as well as from the city people, they persist in hypocrisy. You do not know them, but We know them. We will punish them twice, then they will be returned to a great punishment.
9120 It is not advisable for the city dwellers and those around them of the Nomads that they should lag behind after God's messenger, nor should they yearn for themselves above him. That is because any thirst that will come to them, or fatigue, or hunger in the cause of God, or any step that they take which will annoy the rejecters, or any gain they have over any enemy; it will be recorded as a good deed for them. God does not waste the reward of the good doers.
Chapter 48
4811 The Nomads who lagged behind will say to you "We were preoccupied with our money and our family, so ask forgiveness for us." They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say "Who then would possess any power for you against God if He wanted harm to afflict you or if He wanted benefit for you?" No, God is fully Aware of everything you do.
4816 Say to those Nomads who lagged behind "You will be called on to fight a people who are very powerful in warfare, unless they surrender. Then if you obey, God will grant you a good reward, but if you turn away as you turned away before, He will punish you with a painful retribution."
Chapter 49
4914 The Nomads said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should say 'We have submitted', for belief has not yet entered into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.At least, if you do a Search at http//www.free-minds.org/quran/search then you would see that the search result for the search query of "people of the Scripture" is much longer than the search result for the search query of "nomads".
What do you think about this?
May God Guide.
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Peace Zidane
Muhammad was not exclusively for the Arabs but he was sent amongst them. You missed the gentiles in the sentence. The message is universal.
28 46
Pickthall And thou wast not beside the Mount when We did call; but (the knowledge of it is) a mercy from thy Lord that thou mayest warn a folk unto whom no warner came before thee, that haply they may give heed.28 47
Pickthall Otherwise, if disaster should afflict them because of that which their own hands have sent before (them), they might say Our Lord! Why sentest Thou no messenger unto us, that we might have followed Thy revelations and been of the believers41 44
Pickthall And if We had appointed it a Lecture in a foreign tongue they would assuredly have said If only its verses were expounded (so that we might understand)? What! A foreign tongue and an Arab? Say unto them (O Muhammad) For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; and as for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness for them. Such are called to from afar.6156
Yusuf Ali Lest ye should say "The Book was sent down to two peoples before us and for our part we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study."6157
Yusuf Ali Or lest ye should say "If the Book had only been sent down to us we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a Clear (sign) from your Lord and a guide and a mercy then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our Signs with a dreadful penalty for their turning away.2 151
Yusuf Ali A similar (favor have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own rehearsing to you Our signs and sanctifying you and instructing you in Scripture and wisdom and in new Knowledge.622
It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves to rehearse to them His Signs to sanctify them and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom although they had been before in manifest errorArab comes from the meaning desert. That does not mean Arab speaking people were living only in the desert. East of the Jordan valley and the peninsula Arabic was the main language. These were mainly Nabateans and their main city was probably Petra. That does not mean there were no Jews or Christians east of Jordan valley. I guess Yathrib/Medina which is closer to Petra than Mecca had a population of Jews and Christians. The Jews moved away from Jerusalem etc to avoid the persecution. Christianity was spreading under the dominant influence under the Roman Empire. Also Nabateans were traders and travelers mastering the land and the sea. They had trade with the Roman Empire and possibly rest of the known trade centers at that time. So naturally they would have contacts with Jerusalem and cities around it. This is a very small brief on a vast subject.
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Salaam,
One simple question If the Kaaba was indeed still at Jerusalem, why would the Prophet have changed the kiblah?
Such ideas only cause confusion and disputes among the believers (similar to wat has happened with the 3-salat theory).http//i189.photobucket.com/albums/z286/mfmml/4_mecca_world.jpg
In the end Allah knows best.
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Salam,
One simple question If the Kaaba was indeed still at Jerusalem, why would the Prophet have changed the kiblah?
Such ideas only cause confusion and disputes among the believers (similar to wat has happened with the 3-salat theory).The prophet did not change of his own will, the Qibla change was done as a test by God to distinguish the believers from the pretenders 2142-143.
As for the confusion, that is normal so people make the effort of research rather than simply following.
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the Qibla change was done as a test by God
It seems to me that this point is overlooked and is important.
@harris - Why, then, were Muslims praying toward a qibla located on or slightly south of the 32nd degree parallel in 705 CE?
Researching the matter brings answers.Since the link to the article that expounds on the significance of the event is broken, one can find the article here
http//free-minds.org/moh
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Peace
You are so funny,
what you are accusing me is exactly what you are doing yourself.
There is no need for proof, the Quran stands for itself, one has to be mad to think that when Allah says fire He means something else. Is He talking to humans or who else? If He wanted us to perceive it as allegorical He would have said "the like of fire"...
You are deluded Arnold, maybe you need to consult a psychiatrist...A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels? 4715
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Salaam,
One simple question If the Kaaba was indeed still at Jerusalem, why would the Prophet have changed the kiblah?
Such ideas only cause confusion and disputes among the believers (similar to wat has happened with the 3-salat theory).In the end Allah knows best.
One simple question If the Kaaba was indeed still at Jerusalem, why would the Prophet have changed the kiblah?
It is not the prophet who changed the Quibla, it's Allah who changed it, there is a verse in the quran about it.I still can't find that the first quibla was Jerusalem ! Can someone show how do we know the 1st quibla was jerusalem ?
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One simple question If the Kaaba was indeed still at Jerusalem, why would the Prophet have changed the kiblah?
It is not the prophet who changed the Quibla, it's Allah who changed it, there is a verse in the quran about it.I still can't find that the first quibla was Jerusalem ! Can someone show how do we know the 1st quibla was jerusalem ?
Salaam loxbox,
True. Tats wat I meant, since the Prophet's decisions were based on Allah's instructions. Therefore if the kiblah was changed by Allah, why is it difficult for some muslims to accept that the Kaaba too was shifted from Becca to Mecca?Peace. In the end, Allah knows best.
