no miracles?

warner

Peace Phoenix (Sorry I am allergic to lobsters at the moment)

It is not only the verses but also what is in the verses which are being called magic. Calling verses magic is one response. The other response is calling the miracles and the incident mentioned in the verses as magic.

When we take the miracles literally, when Moses threw the staff it became alive (possibly like a serpent) and pharaoh responded by calling it magic. After 3000 odd years we read the same miracle and call it not real or metaphoric. Pharaoh saw the real thing in front of his eyes and we read the same miracle from the Quranic verse. But the response from both is same NOT REAL/SIHR.

Its not like using a metaphor as in use your head. Please read the verses and whole sentences and conversation between people which has been turned in to metaphors
and you will realize this kind of conversations are abnormal.

There is a difference between a metaphor and a simile and sometimes we confuse the two. Also there are allegories and parables. Quraan uses all of these figures of speech (if I may call it) and techniques of language. The argument by proponents of metaphors on the use of deaf, dumb and blind in the Quraan is not a good comparison to support their symbolic view of the verses and entire sentences.

warner

Peace Aaron

so people need god to send them a book to tell them to have a bath?

No point in telling in a book because people will take it metaphorically.

Both scenarios you mentioned are not in the Quraan in those contexts.

The Quraan mentions wash/bath in 53 and 443 as you very well know.

Samia

I have given below 2 definitions for metaphor

metaphor

1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly figurative language

metaphor
2. A figure of speech in which a word is used for only part of its meaning, as mountain in a mountain of work refers only to the large size of a mountain, not to any of its other features (dirt, stone, vegetation).

And

A metaphor is ?transferring/turning the manner or quality of one object or action to some other object or action?. Which is very much similar to the definition of Sihr given above Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner.

metaphor suggesting likness of something or part of its feature
sihr turning something from its proper manner to another manner

No similarity, as you suggest, because (transferring) is not (turning into something different/another manner)

Zidane

that's why i want to know, because i don't want to have false thought about God and i don't want to say something that's not true about God.

) Brother Nerspi, yes, I agree. We should not have false thoughts about God. As for me and all the things many people posted here, it had been clear enough that the clear signs did happen "clearly" in truth - as in my previous post - not magic (falsehood) so that people should come and interpret how did the magic trick happen. (I'm doing my best, but I may be wrong because my knowledge is limited.)

God knows best.

May God Guide.

unknownuser

Peace Hamsa

This is what I got from PRL.

Shiin-Qaf-Qaf = pass along the way, cross, open a way/passage/vent/channel, cut/split/divided/clave/ripped/tore.

shaqqa vb. (1)
perf. act. 8026
impf. act. 2827
n.vb. 8026
pcple. act. 1334

shiqq n.m. 167
shuqqah n.f. 942

shaqqa vb. (3)
perf. act. 813, 4732, 594
impf. act. 4115, 813, 1627, 594
n.vb. 2137, 2176, 435, 1189, 2253, 382, 4152

tashaqqaqa vb. (5) impf. act. 274, 2525, 5044

inshaqqa vb. (7)
perf. act. 541, 5537, 6916, 841
impf. act. 1990
LL, V4, p 299, 300, 301, 302, 303

http//www.studyquran.org

The verse may be referring to the moon journey by man. Also recently I read an article the moon may get disintegrated due to a meteor crash or something of that nature. (I am not a scientist so I can not comment anything more on this theory)

Allah knows best.

Thanks brother for your effort. I'll check all the references but what is the literal translation of the verse according to you?

Peace, Hamsa

warner

Peace Samia

Metaphor

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in a sea of troubles? or All the world's a stage? (Shakespeare).
One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven? (Neal Gabler).

The transfer here can mean carry over. The word ?transfer? which is from the Greek root for metaphor which is causing the confusion. I am not certain but possibly the Greek word for transport is metaphor as well.

Samia metaphor suggesting likness of something or part of its feature

Metaphor is not suggesting the likeness of something but calling an object/action as something else. An example is "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?/ It is the east, and Juliet is the sun" in William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. As you can see its not Juliet is as the sun ,or bright as the sun BUT Juliet is the sun.

I think there is the confusion of metaphor and simile still.

In language, a metaphor is defined as a direct comparison between two or more seemingly unrelated subjects that typically uses "is a" to join the first subjects. A metaphor is commonly confused with a simile which compares two subjects using "like" or "as". An example of a simile "He was as sly as a rabbit."

metaphor , in rhetoric, a figure of speech in which one class of things is referred to as if it belonged to another class. Whereas a simile states that A is like B, a metaphor states that A is B or substitutes B for A.

Since all the dictionary definitions causing confusion lets look at a simple example which isto do with use of the words.

?I have a mountain of work?. Mountain being the metaphor for ?lot? (of work)

But is there an actual mountain? A mountain with rock, soil and everything else that a physical mountain represents. No. It is only the aspect of size to mean ?large/huge? carried over to show the ?large amount of work?. Also, is this in fact a true statement? No. Since, there is no real mountain. So possibly ?showing off falsehood/not real in the form of truth/real? which is another definition for Sihr.

In the story of Moses when the staff turned alive and moving it actually became alive. According to the literal Quran, it is real. But some call it a metaphor which in this case means the verse is not real/literal but has another meaning. Thus we are transferring/carrying over the metaphoric meaning to the literal meaning. Thus we are turning the real in to something else which is turning something from its proper manner to another manner. In fact Moses? staff did not create an illusion but it actually became alive which is something only Allah can do. But in the case of the sorcerers they created an illusion to show what they threw became alive but actually it did not become alive. This in fact is showing something from its proper manner to another manner which is falshood/deception/sihr. Pharaoh calls Moses real feat unreal/sihr and some of us call Moses real feat not real/metaphor.

AaRoN

The Quraan mentions wash/bath in 53 and 443 as you very well know.

53?

i don't think that is what you meant to refer to but anyways the most you will get out of me is that these deal with the concept of purification.

i won't agree at this time that these are solely related to physical bathing, since as i mentioned but will clarify with different words there is a difference between "if you slept with your wife wash yourself" or "if you are low then elevate yourself"

j n b - 1
j n b - 2
j n b - 3
j n b - 4
j n b - 5

all the available meanings of the root jnb and the best they could come up with as an interpretation is "sex is icky"?

Raj-ah

Arnold

Peace,

It shows how little you know. Islamic commentators and scholars going back to 200 years after the Prophet have claimed the same things as I. I'm certainly not the first one and will not be the last. And what do you know about what or how I have researched things?

Well; I know a little I accept that; not like you, my friend who thinks he knows a lot. Regarding your research and the scholars you are talking about we are going to discuss that in detail.

Arnold

If you study my work carefully, which you haven't, you will see I always follow the rules of the Quran, which is keeping the whole Quranic Message in mind. That my conclusions differ with the main stream opinion, even with most of the reform movement, is not the criteria. Rarely do I just translate word for word, I combine all verses on the same subject to get an overall idea of the meaning.

Quite contrary after reading your work (off course little portion i have read) I have come to conclusion that you are a translator and not a Mufasir.

Arnold

You can always disagree, but if you give commentary, then at least base it on something then just your personal worldview and arguments that are even wrong. First study my work better as you clearly haven't. Now you're just making up baseless arguments to create an excuse to dismiss me in an easy way.

There is where ego comes in! Ok let us see if you are not satisfied with arguments of Tanveer, comments of Warner and others then let me try.

and for the purpose I guess we have to start a new thread for you and me. I will try to take out time from my busy schedule and discuss it with you, this is very important issue.

warner

Peace Aaron

I meant 56.

Agree on the purification and good that you brought the issue on root JNB. From the use of the derivatives in the Quran the meanings that I found were distant, distance (not necessarily meaning far) also I guess ?side?. I did not find any connection to sex as some people and lexicons indicate. Thanks for the clue.

I can not agree on a mental Salat or only on mental purification . I believe salat and purification are both physical and mental according to the Quraan.

AaRoN

Agree on the purification and good that you brought the issue on root JNB. From the use of the derivatives in the Quran the meanings that I found were distant, distance (not necessarily meaning far) also I guess ?side?. I did not find any connection to sex as some people and lexicons indicate.

strange isn't it?

I can not agree on a mental Salat or only on mental purification

what do you agree on?

I believe salat and purification are both physical and mental according to the Quraan.

how so? now having established that you don't agree with the meaning of jnb as relating to sexual intercourse what do you infer we are being told then?

warner

Peace Aaron

It?s not strange really but the all too familiar case of misunderstood Quranic words infiltrating in to the language with the wrong/misunderstood meaning. Then the carnival starts; linguists inventing roots, derivatives, genders and start grammar and linguistic rules and then pre date the word few centuries before the Quraan.

Like I said Salat has its physical aspects. My definition of salat, according to the Quraan, is reaching out. Which can also mean connect or connection and it?s done for the remembrance of Allah. Time, tone of reciting, standing are the physical aspects. I have not seen evidence from the Quran for the canonical, structured, synchronized 5 times salat of traditionalists including the 2,4,4,3,4 rakahs and the fard and the sunna , different recitations and actions including bowing and prostrating. My understanding is remembrance of Allah has to be mind as well as body.

I am still not certain about zakat mentioned with salat many times in the Quraan. Can this be mental purification achieved from salat or purification by belief , good deeds and repentance.

I honestly did not fgure out the connection you indicated between JNB in 443, 56 and the non physical salat. Can you please explain your understanding in detail.

AaRoN

here's a small tidbit...

"maintain the prayer and give charity"

vs

"establish the connection and bring forth the evolution"

remember that the divine is one... and into "adam" was blown the ruwh... therefore a portion of the oneness is within us all... therefore we are all part of the oneness... therefore we must establish our connection to said oneness... this will bring forth evolution

I honestly did not fgure out the connection you indicated between JNB in 443, 56 and the non physical salat. Can you please explain your understanding in detail.

i would like to explain it in detail for you but honestly i have not yet worked out all the details

perhaps something along the lines of purifying your might, purifying that on which you stand that supports you, purifying that facet which you present, and thus if you are distant (from god, of course) then elevate yourself.

hope that helps a little )

unknownuser

remember that the divine is one... and into "adam" was blown the ruwh... therefore a portion of the oneness is within us all... therefore we are all part of the oneness... therefore we must establish our connection to said oneness... this will bring forth evolution

rotfl rotfl rotfl

So part of that oneness will be barbecued in hell?

rotfl rotfl rotfl

i would like to explain it in detail for you but honestly i have not yet worked out all the details

brickwall brickwall brickwall

AaRoN

i don't know ahmed, why don't you let me know when you get there?

unknownuser

i don't know ahmed, why don't you let me know when you get there?

Do you want me to go to hell?

AaRoN

personally i don't care that much what you do

usually in my experience with such self righteous people they are alot more "self" than "righteous"

enjoy yourself mr "native arabic speaker free from mistakes and totally not guilty of following any sort of conjecture"

anyways... does anybody that actually counts have anything to ask, say, or otherwise contribute? feel free )

nerspi

peace

i read that noah lived like 950 years. isn't that kind of a miracle?
and those people in the cave, being resurrected and all, seems like a miracle to me.

AaRoN

keep exploring all of these issues further, there are plenty of metaphors and morals one can glean from these stories.

no rush anyways, after all you have your life ahead of you to explore, no sense rushing to accept any answer that anyone provides.

arnoldyasin

The metaphorical and logical meaning of Noah living with his people for 950 years, is that his message lived with them for 950 years, and that after 950 years a new messenger came.

As for Surah 18 the cave, is in nature and language is very metaphorical, I believe it cannot be taken literally. Please see for example QXP at www.ourbeacon.com or the translation of Muhammed Asad who also beautifully explained it, see www.islamawakened.org for Muhammed Asad's translation and explanation.

Raj-ah

Well well well;

The thread is locked which was started by me, Ok; no problemo, Ahmad already predicted that.

So Arnold would you like to answer my questions now

What is a Miracle?
How did you arrived at the conclusion that there are no miracles mentioned in Quran?
What is "Duwaa"?

Arnold wrote

This is also why the Quran rejects the idea of miracles. As miracles would mean deviating from the roads, and thus deviate from its original Goal.

I only want to Know how did you arrive at this above conclusion of yours "Quran rejecting idea of Miracles"?
which some of our so called free-minds did not liked.