no miracles?
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peace Warner,
So maybe when someone calls a sign in the Quraan a metaphor they may be calling it Sihr/Magic just like many verses such as the following say.
Saying that the verses are metaphorical doesn't mean that they are like magic (false).
Let's assume for a moment that you are right and I am deluded.
You say something, which is obviously the truth. You point out to me a sign from god. I, however, am too occupied with my emotions and "lowly desires" that I think that what you're saying is blasphemy. I say that you are twisting the truth, and playing tricks on me like a magician would.
That's what the verses which mention people rejecting god's signs mean. But the above has nothing to do with literal or figurative language. That has to do with the method you choose to point out that sign to me. You may say, "you should use your head" instead of "you should think." That doesn't change your message and that has nothing do with whether I reject it or not. -
Peace All,
Great clear posts by brother Warner, I'm reall happy to learn about the "Sihr".
Dear fellow Monotheists, no offence, this is just what I think,
I see that "Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner" has happened by some interpretators, since many generations.
I think saying that the
"miracles/(clear signs) didn't actully happen" = "the actual happening of miracles is explained by some other normal way"
(That is why they have to explain it, using normal ways, so much to make it seem otherwise.)Now the same for magic in magic shows - it is falsehood that it actually happened as seen,
"magic didn't actually happen" = "the actual happening of magic is explained by some other normal way"
Therefore, it is THEY who explain the miracles/(clear signs) as magic (falsehood) that is why they seek to explain it in other normal ways. I would not believe that the clear signs/miracles that God shown through His prophets are magic/falsehood - I would rather believe that it happened IN TRUTH as (clear signs)/miracles.
I'm sorry if I happen to be wrong, God knows best, or if my words offend any of you, May God forgive.
Anyway, I'm happy that we believe in the same One God handshake - that is clearly more important than these smaller topics.
May God Guide.
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How do we tell someone ?if they are dirty to get a wash?, I mean literally, since if we say ?if you are dirty then wash yourself? will mean ?if you are a low state then elevate yourself?. That will create too many elevated people with poor hygiene.
so people need god to send them a book to tell them to have a bath?
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Saying that the verses are metaphorical doesn't mean that they are like magic (false).
I Agree. Like in the verse (3103) about "rope".
But if one tries to explain a "clear sign" or miracle as some normal thing, or that it actually didn't happen as seen/said, then it's same saying that it's magic (false) as explained in my previous post.
For more proof, I would like to explain that the equation in my previous post is from the rule that
If
a = m + b
and
a = n + b
THEN m = n (that is why I concluded as in my previous post)
For example
5 = m + 2 Therefore, m = 5-2 = 3
5 = n + 2 Therefore, n = 5-2 = 3
Therefore n=m (Considering my previous post, If one says "No miracles", it clearly means = "Magic", that is why they have to explain it in other ways like explaining a magic trick.)
I'm sorry if I happen to be wrong, God knows best, or if my words offend any of you, May God forgive.
Anyway, I'm happy that we believe in the same One God - that is clearly more important than these smaller topics.
May God Guide.
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peace
i know there are more important things then miracles.
but i don't want to spend my life thinking God did something if He didn't do it.
or if someone asked me "did God turn moses's cane into a snake?" or "did God split the sea?" and what am i supposed to say? yes or no?
if He did and i say "no", i'd be telling a lie about God, if He didn't and i say "yes, He did", i'd be lying again.that's why i want to know, because i don't want to have false thought about God and i don't want to say something that's not true about God.
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Peace Hamsa
This is what I got from PRL.
Shiin-Qaf-Qaf = pass along the way, cross, open a way/passage/vent/channel, cut/split/divided/clave/ripped/tore.
shaqqa vb. (1)
perf. act. 8026
impf. act. 2827
n.vb. 8026
pcple. act. 1334shiqq n.m. 167
shuqqah n.f. 942shaqqa vb. (3)
perf. act. 813, 4732, 594
impf. act. 4115, 813, 1627, 594
n.vb. 2137, 2176, 435, 1189, 2253, 382, 4152tashaqqaqa vb. (5) impf. act. 274, 2525, 5044
inshaqqa vb. (7)
perf. act. 541, 5537, 6916, 841
impf. act. 1990
LL, V4, p 299, 300, 301, 302, 303http//www.studyquran.org
The verse may be referring to the moon journey by man. Also recently I read an article the moon may get disintegrated due to a meteor crash or something of that nature. (I am not a scientist so I can not comment anything more on this theory)
Allah knows best.
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Peace Phoenix (Sorry I am allergic to lobsters at the moment)
It is not only the verses but also what is in the verses which are being called magic. Calling verses magic is one response. The other response is calling the miracles and the incident mentioned in the verses as magic.
When we take the miracles literally, when Moses threw the staff it became alive (possibly like a serpent) and pharaoh responded by calling it magic. After 3000 odd years we read the same miracle and call it not real or metaphoric. Pharaoh saw the real thing in front of his eyes and we read the same miracle from the Quranic verse. But the response from both is same NOT REAL/SIHR.
Its not like using a metaphor as in use your head. Please read the verses and whole sentences and conversation between people which has been turned in to metaphors
and you will realize this kind of conversations are abnormal.There is a difference between a metaphor and a simile and sometimes we confuse the two. Also there are allegories and parables. Quraan uses all of these figures of speech (if I may call it) and techniques of language. The argument by proponents of metaphors on the use of deaf, dumb and blind in the Quraan is not a good comparison to support their symbolic view of the verses and entire sentences.
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Peace Aaron
so people need god to send them a book to tell them to have a bath?
No point in telling in a book because people will take it metaphorically.
Both scenarios you mentioned are not in the Quraan in those contexts.
The Quraan mentions wash/bath in 53 and 443 as you very well know.
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I have given below 2 definitions for metaphor
metaphor
1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly figurative language
metaphor
2. A figure of speech in which a word is used for only part of its meaning, as mountain in a mountain of work refers only to the large size of a mountain, not to any of its other features (dirt, stone, vegetation).And
A metaphor is ?transferring/turning the manner or quality of one object or action to some other object or action?. Which is very much similar to the definition of Sihr given above Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner.
metaphor suggesting likness of something or part of its feature
sihr turning something from its proper manner to another mannerNo similarity, as you suggest, because (transferring) is not (turning into something different/another manner)
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that's why i want to know, because i don't want to have false thought about God and i don't want to say something that's not true about God.
) Brother Nerspi, yes, I agree. We should not have false thoughts about God. As for me and all the things many people posted here, it had been clear enough that the clear signs did happen "clearly" in truth - as in my previous post - not magic (falsehood) so that people should come and interpret how did the magic trick happen. (I'm doing my best, but I may be wrong because my knowledge is limited.)
God knows best.
May God Guide.
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Peace Hamsa
This is what I got from PRL.
Shiin-Qaf-Qaf = pass along the way, cross, open a way/passage/vent/channel, cut/split/divided/clave/ripped/tore.
shaqqa vb. (1)
perf. act. 8026
impf. act. 2827
n.vb. 8026
pcple. act. 1334shiqq n.m. 167
shuqqah n.f. 942shaqqa vb. (3)
perf. act. 813, 4732, 594
impf. act. 4115, 813, 1627, 594
n.vb. 2137, 2176, 435, 1189, 2253, 382, 4152tashaqqaqa vb. (5) impf. act. 274, 2525, 5044
inshaqqa vb. (7)
perf. act. 541, 5537, 6916, 841
impf. act. 1990
LL, V4, p 299, 300, 301, 302, 303http//www.studyquran.org
The verse may be referring to the moon journey by man. Also recently I read an article the moon may get disintegrated due to a meteor crash or something of that nature. (I am not a scientist so I can not comment anything more on this theory)
Allah knows best.
Thanks brother for your effort. I'll check all the references but what is the literal translation of the verse according to you?
Peace, Hamsa
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Peace Samia
Metaphor
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A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in a sea of troubles? or All the world's a stage? (Shakespeare).
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One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven? (Neal Gabler).
The transfer here can mean carry over. The word ?transfer? which is from the Greek root for metaphor which is causing the confusion. I am not certain but possibly the Greek word for transport is metaphor as well.
Samia metaphor suggesting likness of something or part of its feature
Metaphor is not suggesting the likeness of something but calling an object/action as something else. An example is "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?/ It is the east, and Juliet is the sun" in William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. As you can see its not Juliet is as the sun ,or bright as the sun BUT Juliet is the sun.
I think there is the confusion of metaphor and simile still.
In language, a metaphor is defined as a direct comparison between two or more seemingly unrelated subjects that typically uses "is a" to join the first subjects. A metaphor is commonly confused with a simile which compares two subjects using "like" or "as". An example of a simile "He was as sly as a rabbit."
metaphor , in rhetoric, a figure of speech in which one class of things is referred to as if it belonged to another class. Whereas a simile states that A is like B, a metaphor states that A is B or substitutes B for A.
Since all the dictionary definitions causing confusion lets look at a simple example which isto do with use of the words.
?I have a mountain of work?. Mountain being the metaphor for ?lot? (of work)
But is there an actual mountain? A mountain with rock, soil and everything else that a physical mountain represents. No. It is only the aspect of size to mean ?large/huge? carried over to show the ?large amount of work?. Also, is this in fact a true statement? No. Since, there is no real mountain. So possibly ?showing off falsehood/not real in the form of truth/real? which is another definition for Sihr.
In the story of Moses when the staff turned alive and moving it actually became alive. According to the literal Quran, it is real. But some call it a metaphor which in this case means the verse is not real/literal but has another meaning. Thus we are transferring/carrying over the metaphoric meaning to the literal meaning. Thus we are turning the real in to something else which is turning something from its proper manner to another manner. In fact Moses? staff did not create an illusion but it actually became alive which is something only Allah can do. But in the case of the sorcerers they created an illusion to show what they threw became alive but actually it did not become alive. This in fact is showing something from its proper manner to another manner which is falshood/deception/sihr. Pharaoh calls Moses real feat unreal/sihr and some of us call Moses real feat not real/metaphor.
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The Quraan mentions wash/bath in 53 and 443 as you very well know.
53?
i don't think that is what you meant to refer to but anyways the most you will get out of me is that these deal with the concept of purification.
i won't agree at this time that these are solely related to physical bathing, since as i mentioned but will clarify with different words there is a difference between "if you slept with your wife wash yourself" or "if you are low then elevate yourself"
j n b - 1
j n b - 2
j n b - 3
j n b - 4
j n b - 5all the available meanings of the root jnb and the best they could come up with as an interpretation is "sex is icky"?
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Arnold
Peace,
It shows how little you know. Islamic commentators and scholars going back to 200 years after the Prophet have claimed the same things as I. I'm certainly not the first one and will not be the last. And what do you know about what or how I have researched things?
Well; I know a little I accept that; not like you, my friend who thinks he knows a lot. Regarding your research and the scholars you are talking about we are going to discuss that in detail.
Arnold
If you study my work carefully, which you haven't, you will see I always follow the rules of the Quran, which is keeping the whole Quranic Message in mind. That my conclusions differ with the main stream opinion, even with most of the reform movement, is not the criteria. Rarely do I just translate word for word, I combine all verses on the same subject to get an overall idea of the meaning.
Quite contrary after reading your work (off course little portion i have read) I have come to conclusion that you are a translator and not a Mufasir.
Arnold
You can always disagree, but if you give commentary, then at least base it on something then just your personal worldview and arguments that are even wrong. First study my work better as you clearly haven't. Now you're just making up baseless arguments to create an excuse to dismiss me in an easy way.
There is where ego comes in! Ok let us see if you are not satisfied with arguments of Tanveer, comments of Warner and others then let me try.
and for the purpose I guess we have to start a new thread for you and me. I will try to take out time from my busy schedule and discuss it with you, this is very important issue.
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Peace Aaron
I meant 56.
Agree on the purification and good that you brought the issue on root JNB. From the use of the derivatives in the Quran the meanings that I found were distant, distance (not necessarily meaning far) also I guess ?side?. I did not find any connection to sex as some people and lexicons indicate. Thanks for the clue.
I can not agree on a mental Salat or only on mental purification . I believe salat and purification are both physical and mental according to the Quraan.
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Agree on the purification and good that you brought the issue on root JNB. From the use of the derivatives in the Quran the meanings that I found were distant, distance (not necessarily meaning far) also I guess ?side?. I did not find any connection to sex as some people and lexicons indicate.
strange isn't it?
I can not agree on a mental Salat or only on mental purification
what do you agree on?
I believe salat and purification are both physical and mental according to the Quraan.
how so? now having established that you don't agree with the meaning of jnb as relating to sexual intercourse what do you infer we are being told then?
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Peace Aaron
It?s not strange really but the all too familiar case of misunderstood Quranic words infiltrating in to the language with the wrong/misunderstood meaning. Then the carnival starts; linguists inventing roots, derivatives, genders and start grammar and linguistic rules and then pre date the word few centuries before the Quraan.
Like I said Salat has its physical aspects. My definition of salat, according to the Quraan, is reaching out. Which can also mean connect or connection and it?s done for the remembrance of Allah. Time, tone of reciting, standing are the physical aspects. I have not seen evidence from the Quran for the canonical, structured, synchronized 5 times salat of traditionalists including the 2,4,4,3,4 rakahs and the fard and the sunna , different recitations and actions including bowing and prostrating. My understanding is remembrance of Allah has to be mind as well as body.
I am still not certain about zakat mentioned with salat many times in the Quraan. Can this be mental purification achieved from salat or purification by belief , good deeds and repentance.
I honestly did not fgure out the connection you indicated between JNB in 443, 56 and the non physical salat. Can you please explain your understanding in detail.
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here's a small tidbit...
"maintain the prayer and give charity"
vs
"establish the connection and bring forth the evolution"
remember that the divine is one... and into "adam" was blown the ruwh... therefore a portion of the oneness is within us all... therefore we are all part of the oneness... therefore we must establish our connection to said oneness... this will bring forth evolution
I honestly did not fgure out the connection you indicated between JNB in 443, 56 and the non physical salat. Can you please explain your understanding in detail.
i would like to explain it in detail for you but honestly i have not yet worked out all the details
perhaps something along the lines of purifying your might, purifying that on which you stand that supports you, purifying that facet which you present, and thus if you are distant (from god, of course) then elevate yourself.
hope that helps a little )
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remember that the divine is one... and into "adam" was blown the ruwh... therefore a portion of the oneness is within us all... therefore we are all part of the oneness... therefore we must establish our connection to said oneness... this will bring forth evolution
rotfl rotfl rotfl
So part of that oneness will be barbecued in hell?
rotfl rotfl rotfl
i would like to explain it in detail for you but honestly i have not yet worked out all the details
brickwall brickwall brickwall