no miracles?

unknownuser

Sihr
1 Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner

Here are some more verses to reflect what the sihr/magic is

117
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods-- and His dominion (extends) on the water-- that He might manifest to you, which of you is best in action, and if you say, surely you shall be raised up after death, those who disbelieve would certainly say This is nothing but clear magic.

3443
When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, they say, "This is only a man who wishes to hinder you from the (worship) which your fathers practised." And they say, "This is only a falsehood invented!" and the Unbelievers say of the Truth when it comes to them, "This is nothing but evident magic!"

I see, so its a habit of the unbelievers that whenever Wahy come to them they say its a magic. hmm....

2836
When Moses came to them with Our clear signs, they said "This is nothing but sorcery/magic faked up never did we hear the like among our fathers of old!"

Never did we hear or see such magic? confused

467
And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, those who disbelieve say of the Truth when it reacheth them This is mere magic.

Ok, so disbelievers said the same thing to Prophet Mohammed as they said to every Prophet that Wahy is only a magic. hmm...

4330
And now that the Truth hath come unto them they say This is mere magic, and lo! we are disbelievers therein.

Ok, so basically Wahy is magic!

541
542

The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split. But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic."

Though I couldn't understand but whether its true that Moon was splited? And when people saw it they said its magic?

Now read 616

61 6
And when Jesus son of Mary said O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say This is mere magic.

You see magic is wahy, this is what people used to think.

warner

Peace Hamsa

Sihr has many meanings including magic as Arnold showed in many of his posts and majority of those meanings are within the definition I posted above. Also ?Metaphor? comes from Greek, metapherein transfer, f. as META- + pherein to bear.

The Quraan we read and analyze is the same revelation/inspiration/wahy which came to the Messenger 1400 odd years back. When the people around the Messenger said ?this is magic or not real? then and after 1400 years someone saying ?it is not real? is not different. Wahy is the Quraan.

Also people called the inspiration/wahy as well as the signs/miracles as sihr/magic/not real.

Does the verse say splitting the moon ?

unknownuser

Does the verse say splitting the moon ?

I dont know but that was my question ;D

541 Hilali/Khan The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon).

I believe this is not possible to split the moon but as you can see people do believe in this. Would you please explain the literal meaning of that verse bro.

unknownuser

Peace

I have given below 2 definitions for ?metaphor? and a definition for ?sihr?.

metaphor

1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly figurative language

metaphor
2. A figure of speech in which a word is used for only part of its meaning, as mountain in a mountain of work refers only to the large size of a mountain, not to any of its other features (dirt, stone, vegetation).

Sihr
1 Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner

We should not confuse miracles/signs with magic. Miracles/signs mentioned in the Quraan are real and magic is not. The signs are truth from Allah and the magician?s tricks are falsehood. Some of us accept the miracles in the Quraan literally and accept they are real and truth from our Lord. Some say they are not real but they are metaphors. A metaphor is ?transferring/turning the manner or quality of one object or action to some other object or action?. Which is very much similar to the definition of Sihr given above Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner.

So maybe when someone calls a sign in the Quraan a metaphor they may be calling it Sihr/Magic just like many verses such as the following say.

5 110

Yusuf Ali Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay as it were the figure of a bird by My leave and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave and thou healest those born blind and the lepers by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs and the unbelievers among them said `This is nothing but evident magic'.

Transliteration Iz qa_lalla_hu ya_ 'isabna maryamazkur ni'mati 'alaika wa 'ala_ wa_lidatik(a), iz ayyattuka bi ru_hil qudusi, tukallimun na_sa fil mahdi wa kahla_(n), wa iz 'allamtukal kita_ba wal hikmata wat taura_ta wal injil(a), wa iz takhluqu minat tini ka hai'atit tairi bi izni fa tanfukhu fiha_ fa taku_nu tairam bi izni wa tubri'ul akmaha wal abrasa bi izni, wa iz tukhrijul mauta bi izni, wa iz kafaftu bani isra_'ila 'anka iz ji'tahum bil bayyina_ti fa qa_lal lazina kafaru_ minhum in ha_za_ illa_ sihrum mubin(un).

61 6

And when Jesus son of Mary said O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say This is mere magic.

Wa iz qa_la isabnu maryama ya_ bani isra_ ila ini rasu_lul la_hi ilaikum mushad diqal lima_ baina yaday ya minat taura_ti wa mubas siran birasu_liy yail min badis muhu_ ahmad falam ma_ ja_ahum bil bay yina_ti qa_lu_ ha_za_ sihrum mubin

Good post bro

Thanks

phoenix1

peace Warner,

So maybe when someone calls a sign in the Quraan a metaphor they may be calling it Sihr/Magic just like many verses such as the following say.

Saying that the verses are metaphorical doesn't mean that they are like magic (false).
Let's assume for a moment that you are right and I am deluded.
You say something, which is obviously the truth. You point out to me a sign from god. I, however, am too occupied with my emotions and "lowly desires" that I think that what you're saying is blasphemy. I say that you are twisting the truth, and playing tricks on me like a magician would.
That's what the verses which mention people rejecting god's signs mean. But the above has nothing to do with literal or figurative language. That has to do with the method you choose to point out that sign to me. You may say, "you should use your head" instead of "you should think." That doesn't change your message and that has nothing do with whether I reject it or not.

Zidane

Peace All,

Great clear posts by brother Warner, I'm reall happy to learn about the "Sihr".

Dear fellow Monotheists, no offence, this is just what I think,

I see that "Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner" has happened by some interpretators, since many generations.

I think saying that the

"miracles/(clear signs) didn't actully happen" = "the actual happening of miracles is explained by some other normal way"
(That is why they have to explain it, using normal ways, so much to make it seem otherwise.)

Now the same for magic in magic shows - it is falsehood that it actually happened as seen,

"magic didn't actually happen" = "the actual happening of magic is explained by some other normal way"

Therefore, it is THEY who explain the miracles/(clear signs) as magic (falsehood) that is why they seek to explain it in other normal ways. I would not believe that the clear signs/miracles that God shown through His prophets are magic/falsehood - I would rather believe that it happened IN TRUTH as (clear signs)/miracles.

I'm sorry if I happen to be wrong, God knows best, or if my words offend any of you, May God forgive.

Anyway, I'm happy that we believe in the same One God handshake - that is clearly more important than these smaller topics.

May God Guide.

AaRoN

How do we tell someone ?if they are dirty to get a wash?, I mean literally, since if we say ?if you are dirty then wash yourself? will mean ?if you are a low state then elevate yourself?. That will create too many elevated people with poor hygiene.

so people need god to send them a book to tell them to have a bath?

Zidane

Saying that the verses are metaphorical doesn't mean that they are like magic (false).

I Agree. Like in the verse (3103) about "rope".

But if one tries to explain a "clear sign" or miracle as some normal thing, or that it actually didn't happen as seen/said, then it's same saying that it's magic (false) as explained in my previous post.

For more proof, I would like to explain that the equation in my previous post is from the rule that

If

a = m + b

and

a = n + b

THEN m = n (that is why I concluded as in my previous post)

For example

5 = m + 2 Therefore, m = 5-2 = 3

5 = n + 2 Therefore, n = 5-2 = 3

Therefore n=m (Considering my previous post, If one says "No miracles", it clearly means = "Magic", that is why they have to explain it in other ways like explaining a magic trick.)

I'm sorry if I happen to be wrong, God knows best, or if my words offend any of you, May God forgive.

Anyway, I'm happy that we believe in the same One God - that is clearly more important than these smaller topics.

May God Guide.

nerspi

peace

i know there are more important things then miracles.
but i don't want to spend my life thinking God did something if He didn't do it.
or if someone asked me "did God turn moses's cane into a snake?" or "did God split the sea?" and what am i supposed to say? yes or no?
if He did and i say "no", i'd be telling a lie about God, if He didn't and i say "yes, He did", i'd be lying again.

that's why i want to know, because i don't want to have false thought about God and i don't want to say something that's not true about God.

warner

Peace Hamsa

This is what I got from PRL.

Shiin-Qaf-Qaf = pass along the way, cross, open a way/passage/vent/channel, cut/split/divided/clave/ripped/tore.

shaqqa vb. (1)
perf. act. 8026
impf. act. 2827
n.vb. 8026
pcple. act. 1334

shiqq n.m. 167
shuqqah n.f. 942

shaqqa vb. (3)
perf. act. 813, 4732, 594
impf. act. 4115, 813, 1627, 594
n.vb. 2137, 2176, 435, 1189, 2253, 382, 4152

tashaqqaqa vb. (5) impf. act. 274, 2525, 5044

inshaqqa vb. (7)
perf. act. 541, 5537, 6916, 841
impf. act. 1990
LL, V4, p 299, 300, 301, 302, 303

http//www.studyquran.org

The verse may be referring to the moon journey by man. Also recently I read an article the moon may get disintegrated due to a meteor crash or something of that nature. (I am not a scientist so I can not comment anything more on this theory)

Allah knows best.

warner

Peace Phoenix (Sorry I am allergic to lobsters at the moment)

It is not only the verses but also what is in the verses which are being called magic. Calling verses magic is one response. The other response is calling the miracles and the incident mentioned in the verses as magic.

When we take the miracles literally, when Moses threw the staff it became alive (possibly like a serpent) and pharaoh responded by calling it magic. After 3000 odd years we read the same miracle and call it not real or metaphoric. Pharaoh saw the real thing in front of his eyes and we read the same miracle from the Quranic verse. But the response from both is same NOT REAL/SIHR.

Its not like using a metaphor as in use your head. Please read the verses and whole sentences and conversation between people which has been turned in to metaphors
and you will realize this kind of conversations are abnormal.

There is a difference between a metaphor and a simile and sometimes we confuse the two. Also there are allegories and parables. Quraan uses all of these figures of speech (if I may call it) and techniques of language. The argument by proponents of metaphors on the use of deaf, dumb and blind in the Quraan is not a good comparison to support their symbolic view of the verses and entire sentences.

warner

Peace Aaron

so people need god to send them a book to tell them to have a bath?

No point in telling in a book because people will take it metaphorically.

Both scenarios you mentioned are not in the Quraan in those contexts.

The Quraan mentions wash/bath in 53 and 443 as you very well know.

Samia

I have given below 2 definitions for metaphor

metaphor

1 a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly figurative language

metaphor
2. A figure of speech in which a word is used for only part of its meaning, as mountain in a mountain of work refers only to the large size of a mountain, not to any of its other features (dirt, stone, vegetation).

And

A metaphor is ?transferring/turning the manner or quality of one object or action to some other object or action?. Which is very much similar to the definition of Sihr given above Turning of a thing from its proper manner to another manner.

metaphor suggesting likness of something or part of its feature
sihr turning something from its proper manner to another manner

No similarity, as you suggest, because (transferring) is not (turning into something different/another manner)

Zidane

that's why i want to know, because i don't want to have false thought about God and i don't want to say something that's not true about God.

) Brother Nerspi, yes, I agree. We should not have false thoughts about God. As for me and all the things many people posted here, it had been clear enough that the clear signs did happen "clearly" in truth - as in my previous post - not magic (falsehood) so that people should come and interpret how did the magic trick happen. (I'm doing my best, but I may be wrong because my knowledge is limited.)

God knows best.

May God Guide.

unknownuser

Peace Hamsa

This is what I got from PRL.

Shiin-Qaf-Qaf = pass along the way, cross, open a way/passage/vent/channel, cut/split/divided/clave/ripped/tore.

shaqqa vb. (1)
perf. act. 8026
impf. act. 2827
n.vb. 8026
pcple. act. 1334

shiqq n.m. 167
shuqqah n.f. 942

shaqqa vb. (3)
perf. act. 813, 4732, 594
impf. act. 4115, 813, 1627, 594
n.vb. 2137, 2176, 435, 1189, 2253, 382, 4152

tashaqqaqa vb. (5) impf. act. 274, 2525, 5044

inshaqqa vb. (7)
perf. act. 541, 5537, 6916, 841
impf. act. 1990
LL, V4, p 299, 300, 301, 302, 303

http//www.studyquran.org

The verse may be referring to the moon journey by man. Also recently I read an article the moon may get disintegrated due to a meteor crash or something of that nature. (I am not a scientist so I can not comment anything more on this theory)

Allah knows best.

Thanks brother for your effort. I'll check all the references but what is the literal translation of the verse according to you?

Peace, Hamsa

warner

Peace Samia

Metaphor

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in a sea of troubles? or All the world's a stage? (Shakespeare).
One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven? (Neal Gabler).

The transfer here can mean carry over. The word ?transfer? which is from the Greek root for metaphor which is causing the confusion. I am not certain but possibly the Greek word for transport is metaphor as well.

Samia metaphor suggesting likness of something or part of its feature

Metaphor is not suggesting the likeness of something but calling an object/action as something else. An example is "But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?/ It is the east, and Juliet is the sun" in William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. As you can see its not Juliet is as the sun ,or bright as the sun BUT Juliet is the sun.

I think there is the confusion of metaphor and simile still.

In language, a metaphor is defined as a direct comparison between two or more seemingly unrelated subjects that typically uses "is a" to join the first subjects. A metaphor is commonly confused with a simile which compares two subjects using "like" or "as". An example of a simile "He was as sly as a rabbit."

metaphor , in rhetoric, a figure of speech in which one class of things is referred to as if it belonged to another class. Whereas a simile states that A is like B, a metaphor states that A is B or substitutes B for A.

Since all the dictionary definitions causing confusion lets look at a simple example which isto do with use of the words.

?I have a mountain of work?. Mountain being the metaphor for ?lot? (of work)

But is there an actual mountain? A mountain with rock, soil and everything else that a physical mountain represents. No. It is only the aspect of size to mean ?large/huge? carried over to show the ?large amount of work?. Also, is this in fact a true statement? No. Since, there is no real mountain. So possibly ?showing off falsehood/not real in the form of truth/real? which is another definition for Sihr.

In the story of Moses when the staff turned alive and moving it actually became alive. According to the literal Quran, it is real. But some call it a metaphor which in this case means the verse is not real/literal but has another meaning. Thus we are transferring/carrying over the metaphoric meaning to the literal meaning. Thus we are turning the real in to something else which is turning something from its proper manner to another manner. In fact Moses? staff did not create an illusion but it actually became alive which is something only Allah can do. But in the case of the sorcerers they created an illusion to show what they threw became alive but actually it did not become alive. This in fact is showing something from its proper manner to another manner which is falshood/deception/sihr. Pharaoh calls Moses real feat unreal/sihr and some of us call Moses real feat not real/metaphor.

AaRoN

The Quraan mentions wash/bath in 53 and 443 as you very well know.

53?

i don't think that is what you meant to refer to but anyways the most you will get out of me is that these deal with the concept of purification.

i won't agree at this time that these are solely related to physical bathing, since as i mentioned but will clarify with different words there is a difference between "if you slept with your wife wash yourself" or "if you are low then elevate yourself"

j n b - 1
j n b - 2
j n b - 3
j n b - 4
j n b - 5

all the available meanings of the root jnb and the best they could come up with as an interpretation is "sex is icky"?

Raj-ah

Arnold

Peace,

It shows how little you know. Islamic commentators and scholars going back to 200 years after the Prophet have claimed the same things as I. I'm certainly not the first one and will not be the last. And what do you know about what or how I have researched things?

Well; I know a little I accept that; not like you, my friend who thinks he knows a lot. Regarding your research and the scholars you are talking about we are going to discuss that in detail.

Arnold

If you study my work carefully, which you haven't, you will see I always follow the rules of the Quran, which is keeping the whole Quranic Message in mind. That my conclusions differ with the main stream opinion, even with most of the reform movement, is not the criteria. Rarely do I just translate word for word, I combine all verses on the same subject to get an overall idea of the meaning.

Quite contrary after reading your work (off course little portion i have read) I have come to conclusion that you are a translator and not a Mufasir.

Arnold

You can always disagree, but if you give commentary, then at least base it on something then just your personal worldview and arguments that are even wrong. First study my work better as you clearly haven't. Now you're just making up baseless arguments to create an excuse to dismiss me in an easy way.

There is where ego comes in! Ok let us see if you are not satisfied with arguments of Tanveer, comments of Warner and others then let me try.

and for the purpose I guess we have to start a new thread for you and me. I will try to take out time from my busy schedule and discuss it with you, this is very important issue.

warner

Peace Aaron

I meant 56.

Agree on the purification and good that you brought the issue on root JNB. From the use of the derivatives in the Quran the meanings that I found were distant, distance (not necessarily meaning far) also I guess ?side?. I did not find any connection to sex as some people and lexicons indicate. Thanks for the clue.

I can not agree on a mental Salat or only on mental purification . I believe salat and purification are both physical and mental according to the Quraan.

AaRoN

Agree on the purification and good that you brought the issue on root JNB. From the use of the derivatives in the Quran the meanings that I found were distant, distance (not necessarily meaning far) also I guess ?side?. I did not find any connection to sex as some people and lexicons indicate.

strange isn't it?

I can not agree on a mental Salat or only on mental purification

what do you agree on?

I believe salat and purification are both physical and mental according to the Quraan.

how so? now having established that you don't agree with the meaning of jnb as relating to sexual intercourse what do you infer we are being told then?