2:282 A female witness is ? a man?
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Don't tell me that NO Arabic word existed for Men /women , during Mohammad's(pbuh) time. ???
siki
Peace siki,
see this thread, there were other ones on that but i didn't find them. But may be this can reengage the discussion. I'm curious too !
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11583.0
lk
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Allah knows better than us what He has created. Responsibilities of men and women are different. Due to her responsibilities she is more likely to err than a man that is why the other woman is necessary for the issue of witness. Allah has also given a relaxation to women, in case one is not available then the second can go to Court.
This particular verse also asks us to observe what Allah has prescribed different roles for men and women in a society.
Peace all, Hamsa
Responsibilities for sure, but that does not mean women are more prone to err as what your saying. Is there any scientific or empirical evidence to back this up, that women are more likely to err than man??? Gee wizz, guess we should be careful around women doctors, women pilots, women politicians, women with any type of profession. I've heard this argument before, people have said similar reasons along the same lines to justify that a women's place is in the home, producing and taking care of babies, because in the workplace she is more prone to err. This sort of argument doesn't sit well with me. So please kindly explain how they are more likely to err. The Quran doesn't say that women are more prone to err, that they're more fallible than men. Just that in the possibility of erring women have access to backup, she can get correction from a fellow sister. We aren't really sure what the justifications are for having this ruling. It does not say they make more mistakes, they are prone to err, though I guess I can understand how you can interpret it as such.
My idea's on this is that men are usually the dominating figure, simply because we were given biologically more brute physical strength. In the chance that a man might dominate over a woman witness, she can be comforted in knowing that her testimony is supported by another, her fallibility in the chance of any unforeseen male pressure should be less of an issue because of this ruling.
I don't know, just my thoughts. RasulHamsa, it is going to be such a major pain if you can actually show me women are more prone to err, this means I'm gonna to have to change my dentist, I'm going to be extra grateful for actually being here typing to you folks since I just got off a flight with a women pilot. I guess this would also mean the Saudi's were right, women should not be driving cars..
Sorry to the late reply.
Salams.
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this means I'm gonna to have to change my dentist, I'm going to be extra grateful for actually being here typing to you folks since I just got off a flight with a women pilot.
Salams.
And most of all be grateful to God that you are still alive, because your mother did not err and put some acid in your bottle instead of water ... pr
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(2282) says in the middle of the verse that "get two witnesses of your own men, and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as you choose for witnesses - so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.... "
Peace brother Rumi,
We know the reason as the verse is very clear why two women are needed. Two women are needed If one(woman) errs the other(woman) remind her....
Simple, isn't it? God better knows what he has created.
Salaam, Hamsa
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Peace brother Rumi,
We know the reason as the verse is very clear why two women are needed. Two women are needed If one(woman) errs the other(woman) remind her....
Simple, isn't it? God better knows what he has created.
Salaam, Hamsa
Brother Hamsa, you have said earlier "she is more likely to err", these are your words. But from the verse that you, yourself have highlighted, the verse does NOT say this!! It does NOT say she is "more likely" to err. What it does say is that she is given the privilege to have another sister present to be reminded IF she does err. This is completely NOT the same as women are more likely to err.
Your reasoning above that women are more likely to err, is why most cases of Shariah law deems the word of a woman to be half a man (4 male witnesses = 8 female equivalents). In my view this completely perverts Quranic laws, since in the other verses with regards to crimes and their convictions, the Quran requires 4 witnesses and that the Quran does NOT seem to specify any distinction between sex, male or female. Remember this particular verse 2282 concerns only contractual obligations between parties, NOT crimes! To generalize that women are prone to err is thus to distort their value as witnesses in general, is quite a severe distortion.
Like I asked from you politely before, please show to us that women are more likely to err. It's doesn't say that in the Quran, you have to distort it to be able to read that.
Salam
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Peace brother Rumi,
We know the reason as the verse is very clear why two women are needed. Two women are needed If one(woman) errs the other(woman) remind her....
Simple, isn't it? God better knows what he has created.
Salaam, Hamsa
And if not?
And if a male witness errs? -
Peace bro Rumi,
I make this conclusion that women are more likely to err from the verse because it says
If you could not find the other man Then one man and two woman. One may ask WHY two women God! WHY NOT ONE?? Thats why the answer is given in the verse itself very clearly
If one errs the other remind her.
You can also notice from the verse that in the witness priority is only the men. If it happend that you could not find the other man only then you can ask two women to be witness.
As for your other question that where are proofs of women are more likely to err. So Quran is enough proof for me, I dont need any stamp of the scientists on facts of the Quran. But I know the differences in male and female brian are scientifically proved.
Salaam all, Hamsa
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Salaam sis Samia,
And if not?
There are different believes, people think that we need to ask both whatever is the case. But I think it depends on the situation if one doesn't err and both parties are agreed with her then there is no need to ask the other, but if someone ask for the more verification then of course the court can ask the other why not?
And if a male witness errs?
There can be thousand more ifs and buts with every law of Quran thus we should only try to obey the commands of God and should try not to follow the footsteps of people of Moses. They always raised such questions to Moses to avoid those commandments.
Peace all, Hamsa
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Peace all,
The actual witnessing is only of one woman of the two and thus it is a one to one ratio as far as the actual testimony is concerned.
Please see the following article
http//free-minds.org/women/2to1.htm
Excerpts from the above
The answer is obvious the key difference between men and women is their physiology. Women give birth and men don?t, women must rest for a lengthy period after child birth while men don?t, women as mothers must suckle their children while men don't, women have menstrual cycles which incapacitate their movement somewhat while men don?t. These differences exist as a matter of physical fact and have nothing to do with intelligence or will.
Other than 'future financial transactions' listed in 2282, the testimony of 1 woman = 1 man as can be seen
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way." (Verse 415)
"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-" (Verse 244)
In-fact, there is even one instance where the testimony of a woman OVERRIDES that of a man!
"And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth." (Verses 246-9)
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Peace all,
Due to her responsibilities she is more likely to err than a man that is why the other woman is necessary for the issue of witness.
Thanks bro tanveer,
It does make sense. The confusion was the wrong translation of the word 'Tudhil'.
Due to her responsibilities she is more likely to 'Tudhil' than a man that is why the other woman is necessary for the issue of witness.
May God increase us in knowledge.
peace
Hamsa.
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Peace Nerspi, Hamsa,
You are welcome brothers.
Bro Hamsa, thanks for your explanation.
May The God guide us all to the truth.
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Salaam sis Samia,
There are different believes, people think that we need to ask both whatever is the case. But I think it depends on the situation if one doesn't err and both parties are agreed with her then there is no need to ask the other, but if someone ask for the more verification then of course the court can ask the other why not?There can be thousand more ifs and buts with every law of Quran thus we should only try to obey the commands of God and should try not to follow the footsteps of people of Moses. They always raised such questions to Moses to avoid those commandments.
Peace all, Hamsa
bravo