no miracles?
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The metaphorical and logical meaning of Noah living with his people for 950 years, is that his message lived with them for 950 years, and that after 950 years a new messenger came.
Hello all
It time to expose another malice ignorant who insists on his ignorance despite being refuted using the Arabic language of the Quran that he claims to believe in
See what he said above ? his message lived with them for 950 years?, by looking at the Arabic verse we will see clearly that the above can never be true even metaphorically.
And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.
(14)
-> See how the verse started ? ?, ?Wa Laqad Arsalnaa Nuhan Ila Qawmihi?, i.e. ? And certainly We sent Nuh to his people,?, the verse never said that a message was sent, it says clearly that what was sent is Nuh, if it is the message that was sent then it has to be like this ? ?, ?Wa Laqad Arsalanaa Al Zikr Ila Qawm Nuh?, i.e. ? And certainly We sent Al Zikr to Noah?s people? , I chose the word Zikr to represent the message as alleged by Arnie due to the fact that the verb ?Labatha? is masculine in the following sentence that should be talking about what was sent, ? ?, ?Fa Labatha Fihum?, i.e. remained among them, i.e. ?What was sent remained among them, therefore what was sent MUST BE MASCULINE, I could not work out any other masculine word to represent the message other than ?Zikr?, even if there is any other words like ?Waeed? ?Warning? which is masculine etc etc, this argument can never be accepted because non of these words were mentioned as being the one to be sent, what was sent was already told to us in the first 3 words in the verse, here it is again, ? ?, ?Wa Laqad Arsalanaa Nuha?, i.e. ? And certainly We sent Nuh?, i.e. the masculine verb ? ? ?Labatha?, ?Remained? is about what was sent, i.e. Nuh was sent and he remained among them 950 years it can?t be anything other than that whatever the amount of manipulations and surgeries those so called Arabic experts are telling us
Here is the ironic part of all this, Arnie claims to be a believer but he refuse TO BELIEVE THE ABOVE CLEAR ARABIC WORDS WHILE TELLING US HE IS AN ARABIC EXPERT and the words means something else, if this is one off this is fine, but you will see him refusing adamantly to believe all other miracles in the Quran yet he calls himself a believer, what a joke
Salam dunk all
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk.gif
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Thank you for the explanation Ahmed. Shakir's translation certainly makes sense.
But my point wasn't that humans have wings, I can see that we don't. My point was that in that verse, "wings" or "wing" is being used metaphorically, or that word is being used in such a way that it doesn't mean wings with feathers which are used to flying. I suggested that maybe, just maybe it's being used similarly in the "angels have wings" verse.
Can you please explain that one? Does it say that these angels have wings like birds?
Nice slam dunk, btw.
peace!this is the "ignorant" comment I made
And Yusha, the quran says we must lower our wings to our parents, does that mean we have wings too? Or maybe, just maybe, "wings" is being used metaphorically there?
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Peace all,
Just some thougts about the age of Prophet Nuh
And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.
(14)
I agree with brother Ahmed, verse is very clear and cannot mean what brother Arnold explained, however two different words for the year are used in the verse and I just checked their meaning in the lane's lexicon, and I would like to share what I could understand
According to lane
Aama = 12 Arabian months = 1 year
- (sana) = 4 seasons = 1 year
- (sana) can also refer to 1 or 1 quarter.
Now if we apply 1st meaning of in the verse then Nuh's age = 950 years
And if we apply 2nd meaning of then the age = 200 years
200 years of age cannot be impossible.
Salaam, Hamsa
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AhmedBahgat
Here is the ironic part of all this, Arnie claims to be a believer but he refuse TO BELIEVE THE ABOVE CLEAR ARABIC WORDS WHILE TELLING US HE IS AN ARABIC EXPERT and the words means something else, if this is one off this is fine, but you will see him refusing adamantly to believe all other miracles in the Quran yet he calls himself a believer, what a joke
YOU JUST voodoo their arguments bro;
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Salaam Aleikum,
Ra-jah, what is a miracle to me? Well, an act that goes against the Laws of Nature. Do we know all the laws yet? No, but we know enough to see that many of the traditonal approaches are not correct in my point of view.
When I started to study the Arabic used in those verses, I saw that there were many more possibilities in meanings. This is also pointed out by translators as Muhammed Asad, Ahmed Ali, Muhammed Ali, GA.Parwez, Muhammed Iqbal, Allama Mashriqi, Muhammed Abduh, Rashid Rida, many of the ancient Islamic Mutazilli scholars and philosophers.
I have only summarized their work and added some of my comments and ideas. So I'm definitely not the first one and will not be the last.
Maybe in the future we will understand more laws, and thus new possibilities can emerge for understanding the stories in the Quran. For example, the splitting of the sea is a rare natural phenomena, observed by Professor Colin Humphreys, that is caused by strong winds and tides. It still occurs all over the world at certain lakes, rivers and seas.
So I take for me, the most logical meaning at this moment, as is suggested in 1736 and 3918. These are not fixed beliefs or interpretations. As our knowledge will keep growing. Anyone can agree or disagree with it, as people's own worldview determines what they believe is true.
I have never claimed to be an expert in Arabic, everybody knows this, so AB's argument is, as always, just making personal attacks to discredit people, it is very childish and I hope he will grow out of it. Also your approach to me was very unpeacefull, and gives the impression you do not really want to learn, but just to attack the subject and the one claiming it. This is why I keep my answer short and simple to you as this negative attitude will not really add anything to the subject. You try to make it as if I'm arrogant, but these cheapshots discredits you only.
I have never backed up out of a discussion as can be seen on the forum and this thread. If I react or not has to do with the peacefullness of the question and questioner, and not with what the question itself.
Your response to this post will show your true purpose and if you use the Quranic advice on discussion.
The subject on Dua is very complicated, and I believe GA.Parwez has written a beautifull book on it. So I will forward you on that
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/kt/KT.htmThe term Malikah is not a title, but a description. Various sorts of Malikah are mentioned in the Quran. I suggest to read my other works to see what my ideas are on this.
The story of Noah I believe can have several sides, a metaphorical one which I presented and prefer at this moment, or the 200 years one, which is indeed not impossible as Quantum Biology has pointed out. But AB's refutal is only based on that it should have said 'message', this is his idea what it should have said. What I referred to, was that Nuh represented the Message, even after his death. Whatever it is, the future will tell.
I try to understand the Quran in the best way, not discredit it. I keep my mind open and look for further horizons, as the Quran is timeless and the ultimate source for knowledge and the Criterion.
With the verse on the Malikah, I believe it is very important to see the relation of the words in the whole verse, and not just the word Jahan
351 All Praise is due to Allah, the Originator=fatiri of all Highs and their Lows, Who appoints His angels as message-bearers having wings=ajnihatin two, three and four. (Many of the angels, the physical laws in the Universe, have more than one function). He increases in creation what He Will. For, Allah is the Appointer of due measure of all things, and He is Able to do all things.
To understand the complete meaning of this verse, we must look at the words used. Allah is mentioned here with one of His Attributes, Fatir. This comes from the root fatara, which means to cleave or break, also it means bring forth and to create something new or for the first time.
Scholar Muhammed Ali believes it refers to the creation of matter at the BigBang, which I agree with. As the BigBang was cleaving/disunite the merged energy and creating it into something new, matter. This is exactly the 2 meanings of the word fatara . Also from the same root, is the word fitrah, meaning compensition or originial substance, and thus refers to that all creation had the same origin of compensition.
This is why one of the understood meanings of Allah's name Fitrah is The Gift to know Allah through which He created Mankind. As fitrah, the original substance of mankind connects directly with the Maker of the fitrah. When this is all understood, then the true concept of the rest of the verse will become clear.
The word jiniha or janah, is normally translated with wing. But this does not refer to a real wing like that of a bird. Janaha in Classic Arabic refers to power, as an old Arab saying goes Huwa maqsoes al-janah meaning, his wing is cut refering that that person has no strenght or ability and even that such a person is infertile.
Ajnihatun coming from the same root, also means Wing of an Army or Shelter or Protection.
So this shows that the Malikah mentioned in this verse has multiple powers and abilities in the creation. So which Malikah are referred to in this verse then? The verse already starts with the Attribute of Fatir, the Originator of all energy of the Creation. And in the last part of the verse it says 'He increases in creation what He Will'. So these Malikah are Laws that control the growth process of the Creation. During the BigBang, innumerable laws sprung forth that determined the flow of the energy and guided it into matter and magnetic forces and other forces. So it are these Laws, for example the Planck Constant, that are the Malikah as told of in this verse.
This will explain for example this verse
3975 And you will see the angels surrounding the Throne of the Almightys Supreme Control extolling their Lords Glory and Praise. And all will be judged aright. And they will say in concert, All Praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. (Allahs physical Laws in the Universe will help the guided mankind establish the Divine Rule on earth, as it is in the Cosmos. And the Divine System in the lives of mankind will make them truly see that all Praise indeed belongs to the Giver of such Benevolent Guidance).
Where the Malikah that hold the Throne of Supreme Control, are the Forces of Creation, that are so precise, they are the proofs of His Power and Glory, and thus Praise Him. Just like good grades show a person's intelligence, and thus praises his intelligence, the same is with Allah, where His precise Laws show His Glory, and are thus a representation of praising Him.
Because people had their own made-up concept of Angels
3440 The Day He gathers all people He will ask the angels, "Did they worship you?They will say
3441 They will answer, "Glory is Yours! You are our Master, not them. Nay, they used to worship the invisible guises of their selfish desire=jinn=not seen. Most of them were believers therein.People were worshipping their own illusion of what Angels were, this is why they are called jinn, not seen, as they do not exist.
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For example, the splitting of the sea is a rare natural phenomena, observed by Professor Colin Humphreys, that is caused by strong winds and tides. It still occurs all over the world at certain lakes, rivers and seas.
Peace,
couldn't the fact that this phenomena occurs "just in time" be miracle enough ?
lk
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Arnold Yaseen
Your response to this post will show your true purpose and if you use the Quranic advice on discussion.
The subject on Dua is very complicated, and I believe GA.Parwez has written a beautifull book on it. So I will forward you on that
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/kt/KT.htmOk ! Dear Arnold Mol that is the way, I hope we will enjoy our discussion, I will be taking your post in detail but I just wanted to comment on your above quote.
MAy be you are talking about "Kitab-Ul-Taqdeer" I read the book in Urdu, I have it, Parwez sahib no doubt is a great scholar of our time as Iqbal was and I am fairly happy You idolize them and read them, but the Concept of "DUA" was not even clearly explained by Ghulam Ahmed, otherwise the book is a great read.
Why I asked you this question is because it is very important without this you cannot give the statement that "LAWS" of Allah do not change. Yes it is very complicated but we should try to discuss it.
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Noah living 950 years seems unusual and perhaps misunderstood?
WayastaAAjiloonaka bialAAathabi walan yukhlifa Allahu waAAdahu wainna yawman AAinda rabbika kaalfi sanatin mimma taAAuddoona
2247 Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
Walaqad arsalna noohan ila qawmihi falabitha feehim alfa sanatin illa khamseena AAaman faakhathahumu alttoofanu wahum thalimoona
2914 We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin.
1,000 years (Day) ? 50 can denote a period of 50 years; think of illa (minus) when telling time as of right now to give an example?
5 min to write this post from 255pm to 300pm or 300pm illa (minus) 5.
?We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty? an era (Day) illa khamseena or lasting 50 years.
Hope that makes sense; for to live a thousand years is not considered the norm nor was Noah?s age mentioned as a sign as with the 300+ year sleepers in the cave ?
Walatajidannahum ahrasa alnnasi AAala hayatin wamina allatheena ashrakoo yawaddu ahaduhum law yuAAammaru alfa sanatin wama huwa bimuzahzihihi mina alAAathabi an yuAAammara waAllahu baseerun bima yaAAmaloona
296 Thou wilt indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life,-even more than the idolaters Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For Allah sees well all that they do.
Peace
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Peace,
couldn't the fact that this phenomena occurs "just in time" be miracle enough ?
lk
Hi
Very good point
Thanks
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Hello All
Here is a comment by a member on my web site, who is a member here but I think he had enough of the non sense posted and repeated on a daily basis on this web site
Brother Tha said
the "problem" with that fella is that he thinks presenting shabbir ahmed's views in his own words somehow makes his claims infallible -- i ve talked with him a couple of times and i suggested that his views had remarkable similarity to the ahmediyyas, and at once he touted the shabbir ahmed card, as if shabbir ahmed is immune to having been inspired by the qadiyani interpretation!
...and it probably doesn't help that shabbir ahmed himself happens to be a wannabe -- if u compare his translation with that of parwez, u will realise that he is li'l more than a remorseless thief! he scrupulously avoids mentioning qadiyani, and, if i remember correctly, has claimed to be an admirer of abduh and afghani; the fact, however, is that he is inspired heavily by the interpretations of the self-proclaimed messenger from qadian!
abduh tried hard to appease the non-muslim world (read west) by showing the quran as a modern text, and 1 such effort led him to explain djinns as microbes,
...mirza ahmed, on the other hand, had his own designs, and understood the word, amongst other things, as the negative side of the human psyche! where emotions did not "fit" the text, he would turn djinns into aliens (foreigners), and at yet another place he would make them peepz who are "hidden" (living in seclusion)! likewise, to explain some verses he made djinns "chiefs" or "influential humans" -- u can see how he constantly keeps manipulating the word in a desperate attempt to render a translation suitable to his design!
...both parwez and shabbir ahmed have adopted the same distortions, and the online wannabes are following suit (with an occasional wannabe adding to or subtracting from it) , and this speaks volumes for the originality of the generations of wannabes spawned by the efforts of mirza ahmed aka qadiyani!
coming back to the 950 years thingy, u once again see the chain; shabbir ahmed is the bloke's inspiration
shabbir ahmed And, indeed, We sent Noah to his nation, and his Message survived among his followers a thousand years less fifty. The flood overwhelmed the rejecters, for they used to violate human rights.
...and who inspired shabbir ahmed?
parwez (However there is nothing strange in what they are saying. Consider the history of the tussle between good and evil, starting from the times long past. Firstly you will notice that) We sent forth Noah unto his people and his era lasted for a period of nine hundred and fifty years. (Then the period of Abraham started.)* (His people opposed him strongly and) The result was that the deluge overtook them; as indeed they were the 'Zalimeen'.
...and where did parwez get his idea from?
check out mirza's ahmed commentary for the verse; he says 950 is not the span of noah's life, rather the span of his period of dispensation!
take care, bud! (-
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It seems your very eloquent forum member has missed out Dr.Shabbir's book on Mirza Ahmad
http//www.ourbeacon.com/hashish.pdf
bravo
And for the rest, he is dismissed ;D
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It seems your very eloquent forum member has missed out Dr.Shabbir's book on Mirza Ahmad
http//www.ourbeacon.com/hashish.pdf
bravo
And for the rest, he is dismissed ;D
I donlt know what your article means?, did Qadiani sell hashish to shabir?
well both sound stoned to me
are you stoned yourself?
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Mirza Ahmad used commentaries from other famous Quran commentators as Sir Syed Khan and others, he never really invented anything himself. So the whole argument is baseless from the start. Muhammed Abduh was a reformer, and not infallible, but he re-introduced the concept of the Quran explaining itself. It is never black and white, a person can never be completely right or completely wrong.
Parwez mostly expounded from Muhammed Iqbal, same holds for Dr.Shabbir.
So agreeing with other people's ideas makes him a wannabe?
Then brother Tha can be called an AhmedBhagat wannabe with his use of 'bloke' and 'fella', or is AB a Tha wannabe, who can tell? ;D
As usual, only personal attacks, not showing any need for real discussion or peacefull approach. Very Quranic behaviour...ahum
And Rajah
Ok ! Dear Arnold Mol that is the way, I hope we will enjoy our discussion
happy You idolize them
Again and again you show a display of some hidden arrogance. Is there any room in your people's head for a peacefull, non-personal discussion? Not that I really care, but I hope you can imagine the above quote shows a bit of hypocrisy in your posts?
Peace to both of you
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Arnie, can i copy your comment to my web site so brother The replies to you?
for your non sesne about me, well fine that is your opinion but I have to dismiss it because you lost all creditablity whth your manipulations to the Quran words.
hey, did you see me manipulating the Quran words to suit my own desires?
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- (sana) can also refer to 1 or 1 quarter.
Salam Hamsa
Where you got this info from please?
Sanah in the Quran means 12 months and for me they are the 12 Luner months
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PEACE (greeting which is quite peaceful and bolded)
I donlt know what your article means?, did Qadiani sell hashish to shabir?
well both sound stoned to me
are you stoned yourself?
) Is this how we contribute to an enlightened discussion? I hope the pun doesn't escape notice.
can i copy your comment to my web site so brother The replies to you?
If he's a member here, he can reply here? If he doesn't want to reply here then isn't it a bit complicated and odd to consistently post between two forums because of sensitivities? Reminds me of when parents say they aren't talking to each other and then tell their kids to communicate to the other.
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PEACE (greeting which is quite peaceful and bolded)
Is this how we contribute to an enlightened discussion? I hope the pun doesn't escape notice.
Salam (Greeting),
Greeting has nothing to do with being peaceful, so I don't know what you are talking about
Regarding the enlightened discussion, well I didn't see you doing any thing when he called my Bigot nor when he told me to shut the hell up, therefore it is been proven that you are unfit moderator and I have to dismiss you
If he's a member here, he can reply here? If he doesn't want to reply here then isn't it a bit complicated and odd to consistently post between two forums because of sensitivities? Reminds me of when parents say they aren't talking to each other and then tell their kids to communicate to the other.
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/dismissed.gif
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Peace (yet another greeting, peaceful but not bolded)
Greeting has nothing to do with being peaceful, so I don't know what you are talking about
Thank you for telling me what it has nothing to do with. I was wondering about that and now it's clear.
Regarding the enlightened discussion, well I didn't see you doing any thing when he called my Bigot nor when he told me to shut the hell up, therefore it is been proven that you are unfit moderator and I have to dismiss you
Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean something wasn't done . This however has nothing to do with the current discussion and completely irrelevant. Isn't surprising.