Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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AOA all
Is it not well documented that there was a man called Mohd and he lived in Mecca just over 1400 yrs ago.
After him there were rulers/leaders of the muslim community the period of their rule is well documented.
Mohd also had children and grandchildren & their subsequent troubles with a particular ruler named Yazid.
It is also well documented where Mohd lived and fought his battles & as far as I am aware there has been no dispute regarding these.
Mohds life and his return to Mecca is historically documented by both Muslims and non Muslims alike.
The followers of Mohd fought and some gve their lives or becam outcasts in their own family to uphold Mohd's Message.
Yet here we are over 1400 yrs later told that all these people were suddenly duped so much that not a single sole recognised that pagans had suddenly gone back to pre Mohd days. Until Messiah Ayman and his followers in the 21st century realised that every Muslim had been completely duped and Kabba & Mecca had no connection and Mohd neve did Haj in Mecaa and it was all a conspiracy. Exactly who, where and when this conspiracy tooke place the EVIDENCE IS ZERO. But eh so what why let this minor matter get in the way of Messiah Aymans thoeries based on Quranic verses which have very little to do with the point he is making. Yet Messiah's followers are convinced that every interpertation of the Quran is wrong other than his.LET ME ASK AGAIN WHEN DID CORRUPTION THAT KABBA IS IN MECCA TAKE PLACE
WHO INTRODUCED THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT
WHY NOT A SLIGHTEST OF MENTIONS IN EITHER MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM HISTORY-I mean did every one just woke up one day and simply suffered from amnesia until now.Based on the above presented evidences, the so called Kaaba in Mecca and the hajj incorporating the extra-qur'aanic pagan rituals, practices, and customs at this so called Kaaba could have originated only after the death of the Prophet. Exactly when is irrelevant.
The references you have given do not in any way prove your conclusion but if you want to make 2+2 into 8 then that is your progative.
regards
regards -
Peace all,
The documentation being talked about in the above post is nothing but unverifiable hearsays.
Has someone asked the same questions about Jesus ? There is a ton of documentation claiming he was crucified and that he was the son of The God but does that make it true ?
There is ZERO evidence of existence of Mecca during the revelation of the qur'aan.
There is ZERO evidence of existence of the so called Kaaba in Mecca during revelation of the qur'aan.
Evidence of the qur'aan indicates that Muhammad was living near the ruins of the town of Lot and mentions olives and Mount Sinai in his vicinity. Olives are NOT found in the region of Mecca.
Orthographic evidence from the qur'aan indicates that it was originally descended in the North Arabian Lakhmid province region.
Evidence of the qur'aan, which I have already given in an earlier post, shows that the so called Kaaba in Mecca does not meet ANY criteria laid down in the qur'aan for "albayt alharaam", and thus CANNOT be the one mentioned by The God in the qur'aan.
Nabatean archeological evidence clearly shows that the deities of the pagan Arabs in pre-qur'aanic times were in the shape of imperfect cubes and they were often veiled in black cloth EXACTLY like the black cuboid idol in Mecca. There is also evidence about pagan rituals in pre-qur'aanic times such as spinning seven times around their cuboid idols and kissing black stones associated with their idols EXACTLY like the so called hajj rituals carried out in Mecca, which has ZERO basis from the qur'aan.
There is ZERO evidence of Abraham and his sons, Moses and Jesus ever visiting the so called Kaaba in Mecca, whereas they are supposed to know the qibla like they know their own children according to the qur'aan.
It is a very plausible scenario that the people reverted back to their pagan practices soon after the death of Muhammad and started calling them islamic, just like the followers of Moses and Jesus did after their death.
The evidence from the qur'aan should be enough for the believers and the forethoughtful, but I guess the blind can never see, unless The God wills otherwise.
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AOA all
Is it not well documented that there was a man called Mohd and he lived in Mecca just over 1400 yrs ago.
After him there were rulers/leaders of the muslim community the period of their rule is well documented.
Mohd also had children and grandchildren & their subsequent troubles with a particular ruler named Yazid.
It is also well documented where Mohd lived and fought his battles & as far as I am aware there has been no dispute regarding these.
Mohds life and his return to Mecca is historically documented by both Muslims and non Muslims alike.
The followers of Mohd fought and some gve their lives or becam outcasts in their own family to uphold Mohd's Message.
Yet here we are over 1400 yrs later told that all these people were suddenly duped so much that not a single sole recognised that pagans had suddenly gone back to pre Mohd days. Until Messiah Ayman and his followers in the 21st century realised that every Muslim had been completely duped and Kabba & Mecca had no connection and Mohd neve did Haj in Mecaa and it was all a conspiracy. Exactly who, where and when this conspiracy tooke place the EVIDENCE IS ZERO. But eh so what why let this minor matter get in the way of Messiah Aymans thoeries based on Quranic verses which have very little to do with the point he is making. Yet Messiah's followers are convinced that every interpertation of the Quran is wrong other than his.LET ME ASK AGAIN WHEN DID CORRUPTION THAT KABBA IS IN MECCA TAKE PLACE
WHO INTRODUCED THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT
WHY NOT A SLIGHTEST OF MENTIONS IN EITHER MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM HISTORY-I mean did every one just woke up one day and simply suffered from amnesia until now.The references you have given do not in any way prove your conclusion but if you want to make 2+2 into 8 then that is your progative.
regards
regardsWell said bro
Thanks
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AOA all
The documentation being talked about in the above post is nothing but unverifiable hearsays.
Since when?
Has someone asked the same questions about Jesus ? There is a ton of documentation claiming he was crucified and that he was the son of The God but does that make it true ?
I think you need to study your history again. There has alsways been a dispute as to Jesus being the Son of God or even God and the concept of him being son of God i.e the holy trinity concept was only agreed amongst the MAJORITY of christians about 300 years after Jesus's death. Where as the existance of Kabba in Mecaa and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.There is ZERO evidence of existence of Mecca during the revelation of the qur'aan.
There is ZERO evidence of existence of the so called Kaaba in Mecca during revelation of the qur'aan.
Evidence of the qur'aan indicates that Muhammad was living near the ruins of the town of Lot and mentions olives and Mount Sinai in his vicinity. Olives are NOT found in the region of Mecca.
LET ME REPEAT AGAIN AS YOU APPEAR NOT TO HAVE UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WROTE
LET ME ASK AGAIN WHEN DID CORRUPTION THAT KABBA IS IN MECCA TAKE PLACE
WHO INTRODUCED THIS MONUMENTAL EVENT
WHY NOT A SLIGHTEST OF MENTIONS IN EITHER MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM HISTORY-I mean did every one just woke up one day and simply suffered from amnesia until now.All I am asking is when did this huge corruption take place and did all muslims suffer from collective amnesia.
Orthographic evidence from the qur'aan indicates that it was originally descended in the North Arabian Lakhmid province region.
Evidence of the qur'aan, which I have already given in an earlier post, shows that the so called Kaaba in Mecca does not meet ANY criteria laid down in the qur'aan for "albayt alharaam", and thus CANNOT be the one mentioned by The God in the qur'aan.
Nabatean archeological evidence clearly shows that the deities of the pagan Arabs in pre-qur'aanic times were in the shape of imperfect cubes and they were often veiled in black cloth EXACTLY like the black cuboid idol in Mecca. There is also evidence about pagan rituals in pre-qur'aanic times such as spinning seven times around their cuboid idols and kissing black stones associated with their idols EXACTLY like the so called hajj rituals carried out in Mecca, which has ZERO basis from the qur'aan.
NOT EVIDENCE JUST YOUR COLOURFUL AND VERY IMAGINITIVE THEORIES.
There is ZERO evidence of Abraham and his sons, Moses and Jesus ever visiting the so called Kaaba in Mecca, whereas they are supposed to know the qibla like they know their own children according to the qur'aan.
Someone has has dealt with this point quite eloquently.
It is a very plausible scenario that the people reverted back to their pagan practices soon after the death of Muhammad and started calling them islamic, just like the followers of Moses and Jesus did after their death.
NO it is not at all plausible without a whimper from history or even every Muslim of the day accepting such monumental change just like that and leaving no trace in history. Even if Muslims were completely duped are you seriously suggesting a complete and collective amnesia amongst the entire human race Muslims and Non Muslims alike. You will see where additions took lace in Christianity or Judaism, despite relatively long time ago, controversy was stirred and the facts are still disputed today.
Whereas no such controversy regarding Kabba has ever existed.The evidence from the qur'aan should be enough for the believers and the forethoughtful, but I guess the blind can never see, unless The God wills otherwise.
Cheap insults do not mean that you and your messiahs interpertation counts as evidence.
Regards -
There has alsways been a dispute as to Jesus being the Son of God or even God and the concept of him being son of God i.e the holy trinity concept was only agreed amongst the MAJORITY of christians about 300 years after Jesus's death. Where as the existance of Kabba in Mecaa and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.NO it is not at all plausible without a whimper from history or even every Muslim of the day accepting such monumental change just like that and leaving no trace in history.
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk1.gif
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Peace all,
Where as the existance of Kabba in Mecaa and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.It is disputed by the clear signs from al-qur'aan which show that the black cuboid idol in Mecca does not meet ANY REQUIREMENTS of "albayt alharaam".
Oh ..... I forgot that for some people evidence of al-qur'aan has no value. They will remain blind to what The God says in al-qur'aan. brickwall
How can one say that it was never disputed. It is quite plausible that soon after the death of the prophet, the majority of the pagan hypocrites reverted to their pagan ways and crushed the minority of the true muslims and then destroyed all the evidences of any dispute and covered their tracks.
The so called hadeeth was also agreed upon 300 years after the death of Muhammad, just like what happened with Jesus. All the other hadeeth that was not agreed upon, which could possibly have had evidences of the dispute, was rejected by the crooks and destroyed.
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It is quite plausible that soon after the death of the prophet, the majority of the pagan hypocrites reverted to their pagan ways and crushed the minority of the true muslims and then destroyed all the evidences of any dispute and covered their tracks.
The minority of the true muslims were defeated !!!!!!!
yeah
Let's look at this verse that exposes the ignorance in the above quote by a clear cut ignorant
He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.
(9)
-> See, "that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.", however in the ignorant quote above we read that the polytheists have won and destroyed the deen of Allah
Let me have the best laugh for the day
rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Peace all,
Indeed the the Prophet and his followers overcame the rejecters during his lifetime. After his death, it was a matter of which group of hypocrites and rejecters overcame which ones.
What else can one expect from THE WORST OF THE HYPOCRITES AND REJECTERS ? !!
997 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
The current so called Kaaba is clear proof that THE GOLD MEDAL of rejection and hypocrisy has been won by you know who, just as The God told us !!
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peace all,
Samia
Dear Samia; I understood what he was asking but before directly answering him on the verse i was trying to establish that it is only Mecca that fulfills all the Quranic Prophecies and rules laid down in Quran for Hajj, since you and he have not commented on that; therefore I take it for granted that Mecca is the place for HAjj and you agree with it.The question which you have put up is actually on the basis, what I, Ahmed Bahgat and few others at this forum are trying to tell, "Without reading whole Quran and understanding it and just picking up verses and translating it by root method or word to word translation leads us away from Quran and word of Allah, despite bringing us nearer".
The verse says
Nor were you on the slope of the mount when We called. But it is mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a people who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.Now go to the first verses of this Sura
We recite to you herein some history of Moses and Pharaoh, truthfully, for the benefit of people who believe.
*And certainly We gave Musa the Book after We had destroyed the former generations, clear arguments for men and a guidance and a mercy, that they may be mindful. 2843.
*And you were not on the western side when We revealed to Musa the commandment, and you were not among the witnesses; 2844.
- But We raised up generations, then life became prolonged to them; and you were not dwelling among the people of Madyan, reciting to them Our communications, but We were the senders. 2845.
*And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful. 2846.
*And were it not that there should befall them a disaster for what their hands have sent before, then they should say Our Lord! why didst Thou not send to us a messenger so that we should have followed Thy communications and been of the believers ! 2847.
- But (now) when the truth has come to them from Us, they say WHY IS HE NOT GIVEN THE LIKE OF WHAT WAS GIVEN TO MUSA? What! did they not disbelieve in what Musa was given before? They say Two magicians backing up each other; and they say Surely we are unbelievers in all. 2848.
As you can see the YOU in 2846 and the HE in 2847 is not Moses but Mohammad.
And the words ?you were not there? is to indicate that the prophet was informed of the past events by Wahi.
raj-ah Therefore Quran correctly says "So you can warn a people who received no warner before you" (to tell them the story of Moses).
According to your interpretation Warning is just telling the story of Moses confused
Raj-ah-Abraham rebuilt/rennovated the Kaaba that is in Mecca as ordered by Allah, and was inviting the People of Allah to the house of Allah.
For what? did god just ordered him to rebuilt and then get out of there for good, never to return again.
Raj-ah-Now Samia you; Agentxxx or any one else if has any proof regarding Kaaba not been in Mecca and built by Abraham then you should bring it forward and shall not fell prey to Jewish or any other propoganda.
my argument is not that Kaaba is not in Mecca.......its simply who build it...if it was built by IIbrahim then the 2846 has yet to be defined with logic, also the reason for its abandoning by Ibrahim.
peace
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AOA all
Ahmed has already pointed the newest sects ability to ignore the points which they have no answer to anyway will try again.
Quote
Where as the existence of Kaaba in Mecca and Hajj etc has never been even vaguely disputed until your particular brand of Islam came into being in the 21st century.
You analogy here is as illogical as the rest of your conclusions.It is disputed by the clear signs from al-qur'aan which show that the black cuboid idol in Mecca does not meet ANY REQUIREMENTS of "albayt alharaam".
Oh ..... I forgot that for some people evidence of al-qur'aan has no value. They will remain blind to what The God says in al-qur'aan.
You have strange concept of what constitutes an evidence. There has been a lengthy debate regarding the interpertation of the said Quranic verses with no clear agreement and you still insist that your brand of interpertation is solid evidence. Not much to debate unless we go around in circles again.
How can one say that it was never disputed. It is quite plausible that soon after the death of the prophet, the majority of the pagan hypocrites reverted to their pagan ways and crushed the minority of the true Muslims and then destroyed all the evidences of any dispute and covered their tracks.
WOW! At least no one accuse you of not having an imagination. I mean why did they not go the whole way and destroy any existing evidence of Islam. I mean if they were so strong to introduce such a huge corruption and wipe even the slightest trace.
So according to your logic there were no true Muslims left who objected to this ABSOLUTELY MONSTROSITY then why did they simply not finish the whole thing off. Astonishing really.
I am sure you will soon present this as solid evidence.The so called hadeeth was also agreed upon 300 years after the death of Muhammad, just like what happened with Jesus. All the other hadeeth that was not agreed upon, which could possibly have had evidences of the dispute, was rejected by the crooks and destroyed
.I swear I was awaiting for this illogical and ridiculous comparison. Even by your standards this is sinking to depths,
Even the most ardent of hadith followers accept...Bukharis time of collection, methods, inconsistencies etc and the History is very clear. Yet you want to equate this with monumental corruptions you claim which, I REPEAT AGAIN (getting repetitive but you keep ignoring), but zero evidence exists in any form of history, heresay or any other evidence you wish to provide.SINCE YOU HAVE CHANGED TACK I WILL ADD TO MY PREVIOUS QUESTIONS.....SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU THE PAGANS WERE SO POWERFUL THEY CRUSHED ALL THE TRUE BELIEVERS THAT NOT ONE SINGLE WAS ABLE TO LEAVE ANY TRACE OF THIS HUGE CONSPIRACY THEN WHY DID PAGANS NOT COMPLETELY DESTROY ISLAM COMPLETELY AS THERE WAS NO ONE LEFT TO OPPOSE THEM.
regards -
SINCE YOU HAVE CHANGED TACK I WILL ADD TO MY PREVIOUS QUESTIONS.....SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU THE PAGANS WERE SO POWERFUL THEY CRUSHED ALL THE TRUE BELIEVERS THAT NOT ONE SINGLE WAS ABLE TO LEAVE ANY TRACE OF THIS HUGE CONSPIRACY THEN WHY DID PAGANS NOT COMPLETELY DESTROY ISLAM COMPLETELY AS THERE WAS NO ONE LEFT TO OPPOSE THEM.
Salaam brother,
I do not know if there were left any true believers or not but why the enemies of Islam couldn't destroy it completely is because of God's true promise to save His message
159 Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
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Peace bro Hamsa,
You beat me to it !!! )
There is one more relevant sign
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
Believe me, if The God had not protected His message and allowed falsehood to enter it, our fate would have been no different than the followers of Jesus and Moses. At least we know with certainty what the truth is and what the falsehoods are because of the protected message, and can still follow with certainty the straight path and the true examples of the messengers.
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Peace bro Hamsa,
You beat me to it !!! )
There is one more relevant sign
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
Believe me, if The God had not protected His message and allowed falsehood to enter it, our fate would have been no different than the followers of Jesus and Moses. At least we know with certainty what the truth is and what the falsehoods are because of the protected message, and can still follow with certainty the straight path and the true examples of the messengers.
Salaam bro Tanveer,
Thanks, and there are countless to reflect. Thanks to God He has saved me from one more Shirk and I pray for others as well.
Thanks )
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Peace all,
Would someone please clarify the following
It seems to me that the following verses are about the people of prophet
2382 They say What! When we are dead and become dust and bones, shall we then be raised?
Only pagans didn't believe in life hereafter, as for I know christians and jews did believe in it.2383 Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime; this is naught but stories of those of old.
qstn If no warner came to them before Prophet Mohammed then why did they say that our forefathers were also promised the same?2384 Say Whose is the earth, and whoever is therein, if you know?
2385 They will say, "To Allah!" say "Yet will ye not receive admonition?"
qstn If no warner came to them before prophet Mohammed then how did they know everything belongs to Allah? See also Soorah az-Zukhruf (43) 9, Soorah az-Zukhruf (43) 87 and Soorah al-Ankaboot (29) 63.Read 2385-91 as well.
366 That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.
323 Or do they say He has forged it? Nay! it is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction.
2846 And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord THAT YOU MAY WARN A PEOPLE TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful. 2846.
Thanks
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AOA
I do not know if there were left any true believers or not but why the enemies of Islam couldn't destroy it completely is because of God's true promise to save His message
159 Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
Let me see from a fanciful theory (now it is being quoted as though it is fact-just look at your above statement) that enemies of Islam overwhelmed the true believers and destroyed every thing converted a building in Mecca into the Kaaba. Overnight rewrote the entire Muslim History. Oh yes they were so powerful that only did the destroy the Muslims in their own region but the entire planet so that not a peep could ever come out. Made Hitler seem Like Mother Theresa. Whats even more astonishing that until you Guys now with infinite wisdom and insight into the past no one had even vaguely noticed this event for 1400 years. There is famous saying that common sense is not very common...is amply demonstrated by this site.
I noticed that the comaprison with Hadith and Jesus appear to have been conveniently dropped...As Ahmed seems to have predicted about your very selective use of points when cornered just ignore and raise another completely irrelevant point i.e create enough smoke to hide your beyond fantasy land theories.
Regards
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salaam brother,
Well, I can understand your position, but brother when people did not listen to the prophet how can they listen to you and me? Signs of God couldn't help Pharoah to believe in God, they couldn't help people of Saleh, they couldn't help people of Moses and they still worshiped the idol. And there are many other examples where people failed to see clear signs of God. We can try to convey the messsage only. Rest is upto God and only He can guide, we can only convey.
And honestly, I do not know what happend to the believers, I only know that God has promised to save His Message and that is enough for me.
Thanks for your reply, may God accept our efforts to understand His Message.
Salaam
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Peace brother Hamsa,
2382 They say What! When we are dead and become dust and bones, shall we then be raised?
2383 Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime; this is naught but stories of those of old.From the second part of the sign "this is naught but stories of those of old", it is obvious that the first part of the sign "Certainly we are promised this, and (so were) our fathers aforetime" is being said sarcastically, like yeah right yeah
2384 Say Whose is the earth, and whoever is therein, if you know?
2385 They will say, "To Allah/the god !" say "Yet will ye not receive admonition?"The pagans believed in the god but only after setting up partners, like Allat etc. whom they thought were daughters of the god.
12106 And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners.
Even the pagans had a notion of there being THE GOD, but they also set up partners with that god. This notion probably comes from the internal compass that is present in everyone (see 3030).
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God's creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
The misunderstanding arises from not translating Allah to its meaning "the god". Please see the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11105.msg106231#msg106231
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Peace bro Tanveer,
Thanks for your reply, however both of my questions are not answered, without a wahy no one can know there is a one Creator THE GOD, not everyone believes in a god so compass doesn't work. For the first question its not showing any sarcasm please read the Arabic text and see the context as well.
Lets see how others interpret it.
Salaam
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Salaam bro Hamsa,
without a wahy no one can know there is a one Creator THE GOD, not everyone believes in a god so compass doesn't work.
The compass works perfectly, it's some people who don't bother to look at it
For the first question its not showing any sarcasm please read the Arabic text and see the context as well.
Do you think that the pagans did not use sarcasm to make fun of the message ? "This is naught but stories of those of old", the THIS/"HAATHA" clearly refers to what was said just before it making it sarcastic.
Sure, let's see what the others have to say about this.