Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Peace all,
There are many assumptions that people make and it is about time that such flimsy assumptions are challenged.
Mohds life and his return to Mecca is historically documented by both Muslims and non Muslims alike.
The earliest historical accounts are those of Ibn Hisham (died 834 CE) and Tabari (died 923 CE). Supposedly, Ibn Hisham copied from a mysterious charcter by the name of Ibn Is7aq but we don't have any copy of this supposed biography and many researchers doubt whether Ibn Is7aq even existed. Ibn Hisham and Tabari are the EARLIEST, BEST and ONLY sources that so-called Islamic history has to offer. Stilllearning, do you really want us to idolize a cube and a black stone in flagrant violation of the most important and basic tenets of the god's book based on this!!!?????
As for non-Islamic sources, they paint a different picture. They don't even speak of any entity called Muslims. The Romans speak of being invaded by an alliance of Jews and an entity called Muhagareye. They also speak of pagans continuing to flourish amongst the midst of the new invaders. I advise you to read Holyand's book, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it.
Peace,
Ayman
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OPF - are you seriously quoting such a biased source for whether the so called torah contains a reference to muhammad? people who translate the quran poorly are sure to translate the torah poorly, as is shown by the reference you cited.
i wish i could remember where i saw a similar reply by a rabbi about if they had actually chosen to translate the same word as muhammad in all occurrences and not just the ones that benefit them
anything that quotes the so called gospel of barnabas as a source is sketchy enough... the gospel of barnabas is a mediaeval forgery
stillearning - you know when someone offers you an alternate translation of a particular word you can't just stick it in the middle of the current translation and use this method to discredit it... you have to go through and retranslate the whole thing with this alternative in mind
you'll be pleased to know that although i have never had dental surgery i have had my nose broken - so i am just as stubborn in real life, it's not an internet persona )
anyways do what you like, i'm sure the brick appreciates your efforts )
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Tanveer
If all pagan idols including the black cuboidal idol, the black stone in a dilated vulva shaped enclosure, the foot print idol etc. are destroyed and all pagan rituals including mindlessly spinning seven times around the black cuboid idol and kissing the black stone etc. are abolished in Mecca and if Mecca or any other place in the future satisfies the requirements of "albayt alharaam" as laid down in al-qur'aan, then I have no problem going there for hajj.
Surely you will go for Hajj one day and that will be Kaaba in Mecca, as soon you will realize that KAABA is the place in Mecca for HAjj, it was Corrupted at the times of Abraham, and Abraham purified it, It was Corrupted during times of Muhammad and Muhammad purified it by bringing down all the idols, and it is corrupted now by the present Administrators and we have to purify it YES! but that does not mean we start making our own KAABA, which is not visible since last 1400 years and neither do you have any clue for it.
As clear from al-qur'aan, following are the criteria for the house
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First and foremost it is anywhere the people who administer it do not setup any partners with The God (2226).
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In this location, the people who administer it invite ALL PEOPLE to the "hajj" (2227), not just people from a certain religion.
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They purify it from all forms of idolatry (2226).
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The house is not just a place of assembly but it is a SAFE place of assembly (2125).
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First of all I don't think so that present administrators are setting up any partners with Allah; and even if they do (that is only if you can provide any solid evidence for it), that is what they are doing and our duty is to convey them the true message of Quran, but changing of KAABA and trying to find a new one just because administrators are doing any thing wrong is not justified at all.
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Again that is a mistake by the present administartion and what effect does it make on KAABA being the House.
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They should and if they are not doing the Job properly they are responsible for the consequences and we have to inform the people about it, but this again doesnot allows us to call all the historical and geographical, literary evidences just as hearsay.
a) Kissing of stone A hadith tells us ; when asked by a fellow Umar replied I only kiss the Stone because Muhammad kissed it and Allah did not asked to do it.
Those who believe in Hadith even after reading this HAdith kiss the stone, we should give them awareness rather calling them Idol lovers and MUSHRIKS etc.
b) Foot print If there is any foot print why does it bother you, no one is kissing it, no one is worshipping it, they are just praying two Rakats behind that place known as station of Ibraheem.
c) Cuboidal building So what kind of House do you need? a Square a rectangle or a circle? it is the way it was built and has been rennovated again and again, it has to be of some shape, why your anger is at cuboid?
d) Spinning seven timesTHis is pre-islamic practice carried out by people and if Quran does not mention it no need for it.
- I don't see any body fighting over there.
Ayman
Stilllearning, do you really want us to idolize a cube and a black stone in flagrant violation of the most important and basic tenets of the god's book based on this!!!?
No! and niether are we idolizing any cube or black stones, if some do, we should educate them rather calling them Hippocrites, or idol worshippers and nor shall we try to built our own BaytAllah and in trying to prove it rejecting all other historical evidences.
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OPF - are you seriously quoting such a biased source for whether the so called torah contains a reference to muhammad? people who translate the quran poorly are sure to translate the torah poorly, as is shown by the reference you cited.
i wish i could remember where i saw a similar reply by a rabbi about if they had actually chosen to translate the same word as muhammad in all occurrences and not just the ones that benefit them
anything that quotes the so called gospel of barnabas as a source is sketchy enough... the gospel of barnabas is a mediaeval forgery
stillearning - you know when someone offers you an alternate translation of a particular word you can't just stick it in the middle of the current translation and use this method to discredit it... you have to go through and retranslate the whole thing with this alternative in mind
you'll be pleased to know that although i have never had dental surgery i have had my nose broken - so i am just as stubborn in real life, it's not an internet persona )
anyways do what you like, i'm sure the brick appreciates your efforts )
Actually, it was an example of a common noun taking precedence over a proper noun, so I thought it would fit for comparison. Nothing more...
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Peace
History is written by the Victors...
After the death of Uthman, the early Muslims and the family of Mohammed (pubh) were massacred.
So the historical evidence we have were written under the patronage of the Umayyad and Abassid dynasties. These were dynasties more interested in power than in accuracy...
I can only accept archaeological and anthropological evidence. Even writings during the days of the Prophet can also be accepted if dating is precise enough.
Unfortunately we have none of the above.
What we have is The Quran, which speaks for Itself.
There is something that is lacking within most of the Muslim groups and tendencies, and that is the honesty and humbleness of the possibility of being wrong... Discussing and criticizing is not blasphemy, on the contrary this is healthy and allowed...
In fact I have come to believe that Allah's interventions have become even more apparent in this day and age than at the time of the Prophet... You just need to fine tune your senses and be open... This is food for thought for you and I can elaborate on this...
God bless
Noble -
Elaborate indeed.
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What I understand from your comments is that,
Mohammed was the first WARNER to these people
He is warning the people by narrating the story of Moses.YES
Muhammad was first warner to the people of Meccans, who could narrate the story of Moses, otherwise Ismail and Shoib were also assigned to these people or nearby people, but they could have not narrated the story of Moses to them because they were before Moses.According to you this verse refers to Muhammad as the first Warner because he was the first to tell these people about the story of MOSES?
Yes
?my understanding according to this verse is that HE WAS THE FIRST WARNER FOR THESE PEOPLE and the logic behind the narration of the story of Moses is to convince the people that he is A WARNER assigned by GOD who knows about the past events through WAHI from his lord, beside the lessons they could learn from this story.
YES
- And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may WARN a people TO WHOM NO WARNER CAME BEFORE YOU, that they may be mindful.
That is the way Allah talks to his prophet in many other verses as I pointed out.
A Warner can narrate any story/event to warn the people and the above verse doesn?t say "to whom no Warner came before to tell the story of Moses".
You have similar problem as of those who take it verse by verse, Just look at first three Ayats of this particular
Surah and it says the story of Moses is being told.
According to the above verse, the story of Moses has nothing to do with his being the first Warner to these people.
It is not a good way at all to take it verse by verse, read whole Surah and then the verses I pointed out.
For pilgrimage? none of his close family member/decedents i.e. LUT, ISHAQ, YAQOOB, YOUSAF came to Mecca for pilgrimage?
I find it difficult to understand that no messenger for about 2400 years ever tried to come to Mecca to visit the house of lord that was built by Ibrahim?
Strange? how did you came to know this, please provide me the Surah and Ayat number.
Please tell me
He told people to worship one God and not to commit shirk, IS IT NOT WARNING?No! it is an advice.
please tell me where is ismail burried?
Hijr Ismail. This was the location of the house of Prophet Ismael He and his mother are buried here
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Peace Bro Raj-ah
Is it written in the Quran?? how did you came to know this? o
Are you serious? How can it be written in The Quran if it is after the Prophet's death?
If you believe it is, you need to have your head examined, dude...
Does Karbalah ring a bell?, the battle of the Camel, Muawiyah and Ali stand-off, the Two competing Caliphs...
and the the murders of Abu Bakar, Omar, Uthman and Ali... plenty of violence it seems to me...
more damage done to Islam by Muslims than non-Muslims...Allah is currently fighting the so-called Muslims who work in the guise of terrorism and exaggerate in their Deen, otherwise how do you explain that everything they touch turn into disaster, and that our children, women and elderlies day in and day out are killed, raped, brutalized...
How come the tsunami in Indonesia happened in the stronghold of a well known Islamic (read terrorist) group? And don't insult my intelligence by saying it is because we do not follow Sunnah and Hadith enough...
The wrath of Allah on the Muslims is precisely because they are following the Sunnah and Hadith without any consideration for The Quran...
Even if you take some of the so-called latter achievements of Muslims in history, such as the Ottoman Empire, they do not reflect Islamic values... these were Mongol tribes and others who amalgamated after destroying one of the biggest library of knowledge in Baghdad, then went on to do what they knew best, which is invading and taking over nations, using and breeding children to become war machines, Islam was for them a vehicle of destruction. At the same time Europe using better values (Islamic in fact), raised and made use of technological advances to defeat them...
I tell you Brother, if you want to follow Hadith and Sunnah, you should not be using technology, and should be living like the Prophet did in a house made of stone or clay, and not in a block of flats, eating dried dates and hard baked oats (no disrespect to the Prophet)... Let alone using computers, cars, and planes, let's go back to Camels and Donkeys...
At the moment the Muslims are a joke... -
peace Rajah,
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According to the above verse, the story of Moses has nothing to do with his being the first Warner to these people.rajah-It is not a good way at all to take it verse by verse, read whole Surah and then the verses I pointed out.
Because I don?t agree with your understanding doesn?t mean that I haven?t read the whole Sura. if we all understand/interpret Quran/surah/verses in a similar manner, there wouldn't be any disagreements.
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For pilgrimage? none of his close family member/decedents i.e. LUT, ISHAQ, YAQOOB, YOUSAF came to Mecca for pilgrimage?I find it difficult to understand that no messenger for about 2400 years ever tried to come to Mecca to visit the house of lord that was built by Ibrahim?
rajah-Strange? how did you came to know this, please provide me the Surah and Ayat number.
Because there is no surah or verse or any other evidence which says that they came to Mecca for pilgrimage, that is the reason why I am skeptical, so if you are familiar with any please do quote them.
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Please tell me
He told people to worship one God and not to commit shirk, IS IT NOT WARNING?
rajah-No! it is an advice.Advice?
He smashed their idols? He was thrown into fire??.those who only advice doesn?t go to that limit.And certainly We gave to Ibrahim his rectitude before, and We knew him fully well. 2151.
When he said to his father and his people What are these images to whose worship you cleave? 2152.
They said We found our fathers worshipping them. 2153.
He said Certainly you have been, (both) you and your fathers, in manifest error. 2154.
They said Have you brought to us the truth, or are you one of the triflers? 2155.
He said Nay! your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who brought them into existence, and I am of those who bear witness to this 2156.
And, by Allah! I WILL CERTAINLY DO SOMETHING AGAINST YOUR IDOLS after you go away, turning back. 2157
So HE BROKE THEM INTO PIECES, except the chief of them, that haply they may return to it. 2158.And (We sent) Ibrahim, when he said to his people Serve Allah and be careful of (your duty to) Him; this is best for you, if you did but know 2916.
You only worship idols besides Allah and YOU CREATE A LIE surely they whom you serve besides Allah do not control for you any sustenance, therefore seek the sustenance from Allah and serve Him and be grateful to Him; to Him you shall be brought back. 2917.
And if you reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message). 2918.
What! do they not consider how Allah originates the creation, then reproduces it? Surely that is easy to Allah. 2919.
Say Travel in the earth and see how He makes the first creation, then Allah creates the latter creation; surely Allah has power over all things. 2920.
He punishes whom He pleases and has mercy on whom He pleases, and to Him you shall be turned back. 2921.
And YOU SHALL NOT ESCAPE IN THE EARTH NOR IN THE HEAVEN, and you have neither a protector nor a helper besides Allah. 2922.
And (as to) those who disbelieve in the communications of Allah and His meeting, they have despaired of My mercy, and these IT IS THAT SHALL HAVE A PAINFUL PUNISHMENT. 2923.
So naught was the answer of his people except that they said SLAY HIM OR BURN HIM; then Allah delivered him from the fire; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe. 2924.
And he said "For you, ye have taken (for worship) idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other and YOUR ABODE WILL BE THE FIRE, and ye shall have none to help."2925.According to my understanding these verses convey some advice but the rest is clear cut WARNING.
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please tell me where is ismail burried?raja-Hijr Ismail. This was the location of the house of Prophet Ismael He and his mother are buried here
Please can you quote any verse in support?
Abraham was buried by his sons, Isaac and Ishmael - Gen 258-9
This is a proof that Ismail cant be living far away from Hebron.
peace
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Peace Bro Raj-ah
Are you serious? How can it be written in The Quran if it is after the Prophet's death?
If you believe it is, you need to have your head examined, dude...
Does Karbalah ring a bell?, the battle of the Camel, Muawiyah and Ali stand-off, the Two competing Caliphs...
and the the murders of Abu Bakar, Omar, Uthman and Ali... plenty of violence it seems to me...
more damage done to Islam by Muslims than non-Muslims...Allah is currently fighting the so-called Muslims who work in the guise of terrorism and exaggerate in their Deen, otherwise how do you explain that everything they touch turn into disaster, and that our children, women and elderlies day in and day out are killed, raped, brutalized...
How come the tsunami in Indonesia happened in the stronghold of a well known Islamic (read terrorist) group? And don't insult my intelligence by saying it is because we do not follow Sunnah and Hadith enough...
The wrath of Allah on the Muslims is precisely because they are following the Sunnah and Hadith without any consideration for The Quran...
Even if you take some of the so-called latter achievements of Muslims in history, such as the Ottoman Empire, they do not reflect Islamic values... these were Mongol tribes and others who amalgamated after destroying one of the biggest library of knowledge in Baghdad, then went on to do what they knew best, which is invading and taking over nations, using and breeding children to become war machines, Islam was for them a vehicle of destruction. At the same time Europe using better values (Islamic in fact), raised and made use of technological advances to defeat them...
I tell you Brother, if you want to follow Hadith and Sunnah, you should not be using technology, and should be living like the Prophet did in a house made of stone or clay, and not in a block of flats, eating dried dates and hard baked oats (no disrespect to the Prophet)... Let alone using computers, cars, and planes, let's go back to Camels and Donkeys...
At the moment the Muslims are a joke...Good analysis bravo
peace
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Peace all ? anything on Medina and person buried there?
http//www.deenislam.co.uk/gallery/artefacts/Rauza-e-Rasool2.jpg
In what city were the first Uthman Qur?ans standardized and sent out?
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/noble_quran_mss1.jpg
Did Mecca and Medina pop up suddenly out of the desert for no reason?
According to some of your theories; after Qur?an was revealed (in wherever place that was) within a generation the pagans took over, reverted, and concocted over a million hadith stories making Mecca and Medina the center of it all while at the same time preserving Qur?an and spreading Islam throughout the lands ? makes no sense.
Peace
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In what city were the first Uthman Qur?ans standardized and sent out?
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
Did Mecca and Medina pop up suddenly out of the desert for no reason?
How come Osman collected the qur'aan on normal paper whereas a few years earlier it was supposedly written on camel bones, stones, wood...etc? Did paper pop up suddenly?
while at the same time preserving Quran and spreading Islam throughout the lands makes no sense.
Peace
What kind of Islam did they spread? Religion was an excellent tool to control people. Why would they destroy it?
As for Qur'aan, no thanks to them. God took it on Himself to preserve it. -
Its very common hadith that prophet said For the sake of knowledge you can go to china, or he said something like that. And we know that in china people used to make papers long before CE. How did prophet know that china is very advanced country? So Probably in the light of that hadith Usman imported papers from china. We shouldn't be sceptical if the other satisfying options are there.
May God increase our knowledge.
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How come Osman collected the qur'aan on normal paper whereas a few years earlier it was supposedly written on camel bones, stones, wood...etc? Did paper pop up suddenly?
No ?etc? also included paper (papyrus was around since 3000 bc) and deerskin like this Qur?an...
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm
What kind of Islam did they spread? Religion was an excellent tool to control people. Why would they destroy it?
There's only one Islam of the "There is no compulsion in religion..." kind; belief is a conviction of the mind else Moguls who after conquering ?them? would never have converted if there wasn?t something convincing in the message.
As for Qur'aan, no thanks to them. God took it on Himself to preserve it.
Yes, through them! How else?
What exactly is your point; that there were no hardcopies of Qur?an?
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Peace Nun de plume,
How long did it take for the people of Moses to start worshipping the golden calf during his absence?
Not more then few days or weeks? And that happened in the presence of Prophet Aaron.
If Moses hadn?t returned, what would have been the scenario then?
How come Osman collected the qur'aan on normal paper whereas a few years earlier it was supposedly written on camel bones, stones, wood...etc? Did paper pop up suddenly?
why did he burned the other copies of quran?
peace
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Its very common hadith that prophet said For the sake of knowledge you can go to china, or he said something like that. And we know that in china people used to make papers long before CE. How did prophet know that china is very advanced country? So Probably in the light of that hadith Usman imported papers from china. We shouldn't be sceptical if the other satisfying options are there.
May God increase our knowledge.
I am not surprised at the qur'aan being in paper. I am rather surprised at the qur'aan claimed to be written at the time of the prophet on skin, bone, stone...anything but paper. Papyrus was around hundreds or thousands years earlir, just near them there in Egypt.
I am referring to what's in the link by Nun, not just the post.