Who built the kaaba that is in Mecca?
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Salam.
I don't know who built it but inshaALLAH i would like to go there and ask them. Now, circling the thing is a whole other deal. I'm a little curious about those inhabitants there, are they friendly? Because i have heard some people here say that sometimes bad guys inflitrate there to cause trouble, steal and make Islam look bad.
Peace.
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AOA Samoa
I am sorry your English in not that bad, the fault lies with me. I did not pay full attention to what you had actually written. My apologies.
The obvious is the meaning known for "ba6n" and its usage. The ridiculous is to put a meaning and a usage that does not exist, just to make it fit with a preconception. If you do not know Arabic, this is not an excuse. Search dictionaries...Hans Wehr, and even better, Lane's Lexicon.
However I have checked what you have said with number of Arab friends and colleagues, Most of them graduates from an Arab country as well as having post graduation qualifications from an English institution. Every one has expressed amazement at your explanation of the verse 4824. Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities. However, it is perfectly legitimate to use it in the way it has been translated in English to date.
Also the word Makka (in Arabic) can have different meaning. The one that best fits the verse, and the preceding and following verses, in the Quran is that it is a place. I have not found any Arabic speaking person (both Muslim & Non Muslim) who does not think your interpertation is ridiculous and that is putting it kindly.Since I personally know these people, their knowledge, intellect, integrity etc as well as every linguistic scholar (even the new sectists on this site) have translated the verse as Makka to mean Makka. I am left with no conclusion that either your Arabic is poor or you are deliberately trying to misinform.
regards
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AOA Samia
Apologies for the incorrect spelling of your name befor peace
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AOA Samia
Apologies for the incorrect spelling of your name befor peace
You can edit your post to correct her name, if you really have realised your mistake....
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AOA Samia (occassionally manage to spell correctlY)
The problem with the translation you provide is the word (interior) which is not the equivalent of the Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front. It is usually used in opposition to " Dhahr back". This is not the word used for "cities/towns/...In Arabic you do not say biba6n almadeena if you want (inside/in the interior). In fact "qalb" which is literally heart, is used with towns to mean "city center".
The meaning you have given above
Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front
. I have been told that it does mean inside the stomach i.e deep within. Since many of the new sectists have explained that the word Makka means destruction that best fits here & if I am not mistaken I think that was your interpertation as well.Hence if ba6n means inside the belly or the clever literary use would be to mention it in the context of a city and not destruction. I mean in (belly like deep) destruction does that make any sense in any language.
Regard -
Salaam SL
I am Samia, not Samoa
Of course, when you give them the verse, there is already a preconception of the meaning. Did you try to give this word in a neutral sentence as ( We met biba6n the town) or (the market place is exactly biba6n city), because these are the rediculous sentences.
Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities. However, it is perfectly legitimate to use it in the way it has been translated in English to date.
So, they agree that it can't be used for cities. That's what I said. What makes it legitmate in their eyes is the preconception of the meaning, not because it is correct.
So how did you arrive to the conclusion that either my Arabic is poor or I am deliberately trying to misinform?
Also the word Makka (in Arabic) can have different meaning. The one that best fits the verse, and the preceding and following verses, in the Quran is that it is a place. I have not found any Arabic speaking person (both Muslim & Non Muslim) who does not think your interpertation is ridiculous and that is putting it kindly.
I do not alienate myself from anything I write or say, but I neithr discussed makkah, nor came up with any interpretation of the verse. So don't put words in my message and invent an opporunity to attack me in order to feel good about yourself.
Here is my original message
Salaam stillearning
The problem with the translation you provide is the word (interior) which is not the equivalent of the Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front. It is usually used in opposition to " Dhahr back". This is not the word used for "cities/towns/...In Arabic you do not say biba6n almadeena if you want (inside/in the interior). In fact "qalb" which is literally heart, is used with towns to mean "city center".
biba6n is more logical to mean confront/confrontation than interior.
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Hence if ba6n means inside the belly or the clever literary use would be to mention it in the context of a city and not destruction. I mean in (belly like deep) destruction does that make any sense in any language.
RegardNo one says (biba6n a town). First bi does not primarily mean (in), but rather (at), (by) (with). (fi) is more accurate. qalb, heart, is the word used to mean interior, core .
None of the derivatives of "ba6n" used in the qur'aan mean inside baa6in hidden, secret , used in opposition to Dhahir clear; (verses 6151; 732; 573; 6120; 5713; 3120) bi6aana people around someone who advise (311 also means lining (other side of textile material) (verse 5554). All other usages directly mean (stomach, uterus) which are the organs in the frontal.
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AOA SAMIA
I am Samia, not Samoa
I have already apologised if it is not enough then SORRY again.
Of course, when you give them the verse, there is already a preconception of the meaning. Did you try to give this word in a neutral sentence as ( We met biba6n the town) or (the market place is exactly biba6n city), because these are the rediculous sentences
.The verse does not talk about meeting in town or city etc so I am not sure what your point is.
Quote
Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities. However, it is perfectly legitimate to use it in the way it has been translated in English to date.So, they agree that it can't be used for cities. That's what I said. What makes it legitmate in their eyes is the preconception of the meaning, not because it is correct.
No they did not say that read what I have written. Of course it can be used.
So how did you arrive to the conclusion that either my Arabic is poor or I am deliberately trying to misinform?
I thought i had explained it already.
Quote from stillearning on Today at 124621 PM
Also the word Makka (in Arabic) can have different meaning. The one that best fits the verse, and the preceding and following verses, in the Quran is that it is a place. I have not found any Arabic speaking person (both Muslim & Non Muslim) who does not think your interpertation is ridiculous and that is putting it kindly.I do not alienate myself from anything I write or say, but I neithr discussed makkah, nor came up with any interpretation of the verse. So don't put words in my message and invent an opporunity to attack me in order to feel good about yourself.
Here is my original message
Quote from Samia on May 24, 2007, 024736 AM
Salaam stillearningThe problem with the translation you provide is the word (interior) which is not the equivalent of the Arabic word " ba6n", literally, "belly" front. It is usually used in opposition to " Dhahr back". This is not the word used for "cities/towns/...In Arabic you do not say biba6n almadeena if you want (inside/in the interior). In fact "qalb" which is literally heart, is used with towns to mean "city center".
biba6n is more logical to mean confront/confrontation than interior.
wow! Samia. In case you had not realised this thread is about the new sectists questioning that there is no evidence of the existance of Makka during Mohds time. Prhaps you did not discuss the word Makka but your inference was very clear. Anyway if your point was NOT that this verse could not mean Makka as city what exactly was your point...
Unless I have completely misunderstood you again. Your new post makes me suspect that you were deliberately trying to mislead.
regards -
AOA SAMIA
I have already apologised if it is not enough then SORRY again.
I posted my reply before I read yours. I was not offended, just wanted to correct my name
The verse does not talk about meeting in town or city etc so I am not sure what your point is.
Those were examples to show the stupidity of the usage of "ba6n" if we want to say in/in the interior of a town/city. I was contesting the translation.
No they did not say that read what I have written. Of course it can be used.
You said, " Whilst they accept that the word used for in, interior, midst etc is not the one always used when mentioning cities"...What does that mean?
And I say "qalb heart" is used for cities , not "ba6nbelly". Why don't you just look it up in a dictionary instead of asking people who have different opinions?
wow! Samia. In case you had not realised this thread is about the new sectists questioning that there is no evidence of the existance of Makka during Mohds time. Prhaps you did not discuss the word Makka but your inference was very clear. Anyway if your point was NOT that this verse could not mean Makka as city what exactly was your point...
Unless I have completely misunderstood you again. Your new post makes me suspect that you were deliberately trying to mislead.I know what this thread is about, and I agree with these "new sectists" that mecca is not a town. The usage of "biba6n" is not for a town, and that was the part I was discussing. So, if you want to discuss what I wrote, you're welcome. Don't criticize what I did not write, even if I believe in it.
Why would I try to mislead? I find those who believe in faulty interpretations inspite of their different usage in the quraan and in spite of the rules of language are already mislead.
There are about 25 occurances of the word "ba6n" or its derivatives in the qur'aan. They either mean belly (literal meaning) or something else. Non has the meaning (inside/in/interior). Why would this be an exception in language and in the qur'aan?
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Peace all,
According to Nabatean pagan mythology, Dushara/Dusares was the sun-god of the Nabateans and was their chief deity. He was claimed to be born to a virgin sun-goddess "Chaamu" or "Core" or Allat, and his birth was celebrated at winter solstice. The Nabatean fertility sun-goddess Allat and her son Dushara were symbolized by cuboid stone blocks also known as Djinn Blocks. More than 20 of these Djinn Blocks can be found on the outskirts of Petra, Jordan, usually close to a water source.
Nabatean pagans used to veil their fertility goddess with black cloth. The so called Kaaba at Mecca is a perfect replica of the cuboid stone blocks or Djinn Blocks and is veiled in black cloth thus representing the virgin mother sun-goddess Allat. The so called black stone in a dilated vulva shaped enclosure represents the crown of the sun-god Dushara being born from the virgin mother sun-goddess Allat, and is precisely aligned with the rising sun at winter solstice.
According to Epiphanius of Salamis (c.315-403), the birth of the sun-god Dushara was celebrated by the Nabatean pagans at winter solstice. On the night of the 25th of December, a festival occurred before the cuboidal stone block image of Allat; it ended with bringing forth from beneath the earth the image of the sun-god Dushara, which was carried seven times around the inner sanctuary of Allat?s temple. This is the source of Christmas being celebrated on 25th of December.
Dushara, also known in Greek transliteration as Dusares, was worshipped at Petra and Madain Saleh (of which city he was the patron deity) by the Nabataeans. In Greek times, he was associated with Zeus and Dionysus because he was the chief of the Nabataean pantheon. His sanctuary at Petra contained a great temple in which a large cuboidal stone was the centrepiece.
A gallery of Djinn Blocks found at Petra, Jordan, is as follows. Please note the perfect resemblance of the so called Kaaba in Mecca to these Djinn Blocks, including the pedestal at their bottom, and the proximity to a water source, which is called zam-zam in the case of the so called Kaaba in Mecca.
http//inlinethumb12.webshots.com/4171/1001904037000398380S600x600Q85.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks1.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks2.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks3.jpg
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/DjinnBlocks5.jpg
Please see the following links for additional details and reference
http//www.nisbett.com/holidays/christmas_pagan_parallels_to.htm
http//notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/fem4.htm#The%20Satanic%20verses
http//nabataea.net/gods.html
http//www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/dhushara.htm
http//www.bible.ca/islam/islam-meteorite-worship.htm
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peace stillearning,
wow! Samia. In case you had not realised this thread is about the new sectists questioning that there is no evidence of the existance of Makka during Mohds time. Prhaps you did not discuss the word Makka but your inference was very clear. Anyway if your point was NOT that this verse could not mean Makka as city what exactly was your point...
Unless I have completely misunderstood you again. Your new post makes me suspect that you were deliberately trying to mislead.
regardsI think you have misunderstood.......the thread is about "who built the Kaaba that is in Mecca ?". was it built by Ibrahim and Ismael or not?
Those who don't agree that it was built by Ibrahim, have presented their own point of view/reasons in support of their understanding pertaining to "Kaaba and mecca" and one of their reason for not believing is the lack of evidence that "Mecca" existed during or before the time of prophet.
I hope I have made it clear?
peace
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A gallery of Djinn Blocks found at Petra, Jordan, is as follows. Please note the perfect resemblance of the so called Kaaba in Mecca to these Djinn Blocks, including the pedestal at their bottom, and the proximity to a water source, which is called zam-zam in the case of the so called Kaaba in Mecca.
Interesting pics tanveer bhai
Thanks.
peace
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I support samia's point of view, "Battan" is generally used for " belly " and city center is always described as"" Heart " ( Qalb ) so, if we take Mecca as a city , then Battan does not match up .The "New sectists" may not have reached the correct meanings of the words yet , but the "old sectists " (most likely) have it wrong.
peace
siki
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NAbster
Are you serious? How can it be written in The Quran if it is after the Prophet's death?
If you believe it is, you need to have your head examined, dude...I think it is you who needs overhauling of a damaged brained
This just discloses how intelligent you and your team is applauding each other for their lies and mistakes.
You while half awaked posted this
Nabster
Peace
History is written by the Victors...
After the death of Uthman, the early Muslims and the family of Mohammed (pubh) were massacred.
So the historical evidence we have were written under the patronage of the Umayyad and Abassid dynasties. These were dynasties more interested in power than in accuracy...
I can only accept archaeological and anthropological evidence. Even writings during the days of the Prophet can also be accepted if dating is precise enough.
Unfortunately we have none of the above.
What we have is The Quran, which speaks for Itself.Did you write it or not if you did I guess you never understood what you are writing? and irony on that you were asking Cheers from others and more Pathetic some were even cheering your non sense.
In your above post you issued the following statement
After the death of Uthman, the early Muslims and the family of Mohammed (pubh) were massacred.
How did you came to know this???????
WAs it written in Quran?? NO! (offcourse even elementry student of history and religon knows that but you were not able to get the taunt this only further discloses your intelligence level).The option left is by History? but what does our cheer hungry dude has to say about history we have already in his above post.
I am sorry I had to use bit harsh language in my post but that was due to your post i quoted above.
Regarding your comments on HAdith and Sunnah , I don't think so you are even capable of discussing these subjects as your posts have revealed.
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Agent xxx
Because I don?t agree with your understanding doesn?t mean that I haven?t read the whole Sura. if we all understand/interpret Quran/surah/verses in a similar manner, there wouldn't be any disagreements.
Well we are discussing. The whole Surah is about Musa and His people which Allah has told to Muhammad so he can warn the Meccans who have been never warned by any prophet by telling them the story of Moses.
Agent xxx
Because there is no surah or verse or any other evidence which says that they came to Mecca for pilgrimage, that is the reason why I am skeptical, so if you are familiar with any please do quote them.
Then how did you come to conclusion that
For pilgrimage? none of his close family member/decedents i.e. LUT, ISHAQ, YAQOOB, YOUSAF came to Mecca for pilgrimage?
If it is not in Quran then you are relying on history or am I wrong?
If on history then what makes your history more reliable then main stream? Give us proofs for it!There are lot of things which Quran does not say, does it mean that we can arrive at any conclusion of our will in absence of Quranic evidence??
Agent Xxx
Please can you quote any verse in support?
Abraham was buried by his sons, Isaac and Ishmael - Gen 258-9
This is a proof that Ismail cant be living far away from Hebron.
From here on it is for TANVEER and AgentXXX both
Abraham was buried by Isaac and Ismail, how does this proves that Isamil cannot be living far away from Hebron??
Even in those times people travelled a lot.
We know that ancient people (and even modern people) people move pretty often. Abraham's father, Terah moved his family from Ur to Haran (Genesis 1131). Abraham and Lot moved from Haran to Canaan (Genesis 124-5). Due to famine, he moved to Egypt (Genesis 1210). In history, once a group of people gets too large, they moved. We see this happening between Abraham and Lot (Genesis 136-1 (See this map for Abraham's journeys). They also moved because of the environment. Famine caused Abraham to go to Egypt (Genesis 1210), Isaac to go to the Philistines (Genesis 261) and Jacob's family to go to Egypt (Genesis 43). People also moved because of political reasons as people gets displaced. Aren't the Arabs originally nomadic tribes, who excelled in caravan trade? Did the ancestor of the Saxons come from England? Did the Franks come from France? Did the Aryans come from India? Anyone with a little sense of world history knows that this is not the case. These are all barbaric tribes who came and destroyed Europe (or India), settled there, and became part of the people there. In fact, the modern name of some of the European countries came from the names of the settlers. Even the Malays of Malaysia (despite the name of the country) were originally from Indonesia. In Kazakhstan, there is a group of Chinese Muslim people called the Dungan, who moved there from China after the Tungan Revolt in 1862-1877 AD.So how come it is a proof that Ismail was some where near, further it states in genesis
So actually it is telling us that Ismail settled faraway from his Papa and not as you are telling us.
2121 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
"Paran = 'two who migrated'"
Where is Paran located??
Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat Mountains". Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation in the cave of "Hira'a" located in these mountains.
So it rather confirms that Ismail lived and settled in Paran "Makkah" and he and his Dad Abraham built the KAABA THAT IS IN MECCA!
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Now this verse of (Isaiah 60),
607 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.Is surely of before Muhammad, and in it Allah tells us clearly about his house and invites for piligrimage, the key word there being with regards to our discussion "Kedar"
What are or is Kedar?
The Arabs are called Kedar?s or Kedarites (Genesis 2513-16 and see Illustrated Dictionary & Concordance of the Bible- G.G. The Jersulem Publishing House Ltd 1986 pages 478 and 589).
This further confirms that the House of Allah existed even before Muhammad and Jesus in the Arab and all the historical evidences lead us to "Paran" MAKKAH" "BAKKAH" located in present day Saudi.
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ke'-dar (qedhar; Kedar) Second in order of the sons of Ishmael (Gen 2513 parallel 1 Ch 129). The name occurs as typical of a distant eastern country in opposition to the lands of the Mediterranean (Jer 210). The author of Second Isa introduces this tribe in company with Nebaioth, and both are represented as owners of flocks (Isa 607). Evidence of their nomadic habits appears in Jer 4928,29, where they are classed among the Bene-Qedhem, and mention is made of their flocks, camels, tents, curtains and furniture. They are spoken of (Isa 4211) as dwelling in chatserim ("villages", from which it would appear that they were a somewhat settled tribe, corresponding to the Arabic chadariya or "town-dwellers," as distinct from wabariya or "nomads." Ezekiel (2721) gives another hint of their pastoral nature where, in his detailed picture of the wealth of Tyre, Kedar and Arabia provide the Tyrians with lambs, rams and goats. The fame of the tribe is further reflected in Isa 2116,17 (the only allusion to their might in war), and in the figurative references to their tents (Ps 1205; Song 15). In this last passage where the tents are made symbolic of dark beauty, the word qadhar ("to be black" may have been in the writer's mind.
The settlements of Kedar were probably in the Northwest of Arabia, not far from the borders of Palestine. Assyrian inscriptions have thrown light upon the history of the tribe. There Kedar is mentioned along with the Arabs and Nebaioth, which decides its identity with Kedar of the Old Testament, and there is found also an account of the conflicts between the tribe and King Assurbanipal (see Margoliouth in HDB).
Of the Ishmaelite tribes, Kedar must have been one of the most important, and thus in later times the name came to be applied to all the wild tribes of the desert. It is through Kedar (Arabic, keidar) that Muslim genealogists trace the descent of Mohammed from Ishmael.
A. S. Fulton -
Agent xxx
Then how did you come to conclusion that
If it is not in Quran then you are relying on history or am I wrong?
If on history then what makes your history more reliable then main stream? Give us proofs for it!There are lot of things which Quran does not say, does it mean that we can arrive at any conclusion of our will in absence of Quranic evidence??
If you are implying the hadith hold any credibility empirically, oh lord, you should just keel over...
Look at how they were collected, referenced, classed. Any history is better than such rubbish.
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If you are implying the hadith hold any credibility empirically, oh lord, you should just keel over...
Look at how they were collected, referenced, classed. Any history is better than such rubbish.
Just don't dive in with your nose facing the ground, may be later we will have to hear a sound of OPFFFFFFFF...
Please try to understand what is being said or leave it to more credible posters, like Tanveer or AgentXXX who are having discussion or who started the thread.
Hadith has become such a terror for some of guys/girls over here that whenever they donot understand what is going on they come up with HADITH HADITH HADITH, even if there is no mention of any.