Kaaba again - destroy idols
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Peace
Re Mount Sinai
You might find this article interesting Mount Sinai is much closer to Palestine than you may think, and is not in the Arabian Peninsula, but much further north
Thoughts on Jebel al-Lawz and the Location of Mt. Sinai
http//bibleprobe.com/jabel%20al%20Lawz.htm
The method used to determine this are correlation of days of travel vs. distances -
Peace
I can appreciate why there is the saying "Patient as a Prophet", and also why Allah told Mohammed's followers (and rejectors) were they going to make his life as hard as Moses? (when the Children of Israel kept on harassing him with questions and stupid comments).
Oki Nun de Plume (nice nick btw)
Allah is the only one who allows himself to swear by his Creation (we are not allowed as it is idolatry)-
Despite that people still do, some will swear by their children, their possessions, some idols etc... All the objects they swear by are important to them, and convey a sense of importance to the recipient, so that the recipient believes them.
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
kappich
have a nice day14.37. "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
It sounds like Makka to me. hmm
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Peace theNabster,
Thanks on the "Nom de Plume" compliment...
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
2320 Also a tree springing out of MOUNT SINAI, which produces oil, and relish for those who use it for food.
Where is MOUNT SINAI ? vicinity of PALESTINE?
http//www.pacinst.com/route/route.jpg
Didn't you realize that you are showing us a map of North West of the Arabian Peninsula? Mecca is south of the peninsula. Gulf of Aqaba is nowhere in SA.
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14.37. "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
It sounds like Makka to me. hmm
Peace
It might also be referring to Kidron Valley (Qidron Valley) by Jerusalem... -
Didn't you realize that you are showing us a map of North West of the Arabian Peninsula? Mecca is south of the peninsula. Gulf of Aqaba is nowhere in SA.
I realize everything about which I post!
The whole point is my initial reply to Ayman that Surah 951-3 relationship is NOT about same location/vicinity?
951 By the Fig and the Olive,
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
953 And this City of security,-It is about ?same message? (2435) light/guidance.
Peace
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Peace
It might also be referring to Kidron Valley (Qidron Valley) by Jerusalem...Timeline Jerusalem?
614 Conquered by Persians
629 Recaptured by ByzantinesTimeline Islam?
610 Start revelation of Qur?an
622 Hijra -- migration to Medina
624 Battle of Badr
627 Battle of the Trench
628 Treaty of Hudaybiyyah
630 Conquest of Mecca
End revelation
638 Caliph Omar enters JerusalemEarly Islam if near Jerusalem (609 ? 632 AD) would have to contend with the likes of Persians and Byzantines which clearly was not the case nor mentioned in history.
Peace
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Peace Bro Nun de Plume,
If the Arabs were so "good" at recording their history and complementing it with clear cut archaeological/anthropological evidence, why did they have to use hearsay and a strange system of hadith collection after over 200 years of the death of the Prophet about the lives of the Prophet and his companions to build up that whole time-line you listed...
It seems to me you are making a huge leap of faith by believing what they so cunningly fed you... ;D
You see having them trying to convince me to pray to idol symbols has shattered pretty much any credibility they have in my book...
The only thing left for me and many people on this site to rely on is The Quran...
And it is verey significant and prophetic that Allah in The Quran bothered to describe the Arab deities, as they are still live and well!!!
Comprende amigo? -
Peace brother theNabster,
Peace Bro Nun de Plume,
If the Arabs were so "good" at recording their history and complementing it with clear cut archaeological/anthropological evidence, why did they have to use hearsay and a strange system of hadith collection after over 200 years of the death of the Prophet about the lives of the Prophet and his companions to build up that whole time-line you listed...All history is according to someone?s biased hadith. Discard all Arab history then show us according to Jewish, Roman, or whoever's history/hearsay/hadith that Islam was near Jerusalem before 638 AD?
Islam didn?t spring overnight and was clearly revealed in a ?CITY? by ?Thy Sacred House? ?
1435 Remember Abraham said "O my Lord! make this CITY one of peace and security and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols.
1436 "O my Lord! they have indeed led astray many among mankind; He then who follows my (ways) is of me, and he that disobeys me,- but Thou art indeed Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
It seems to me you are making a huge leap of faith by believing what they so cunningly fed you... ;D
No, I read for historical perspective to get a sense of location/time then triangulate with Qur?an and other sources using common sense to avoid making illogical conjectures such as below
Figs and olives don?t grow near Mecca therefore ?City? is not Mecca.
Neglecting meaning of verse and with same logic it would also be on Mt. Sinai.Black stone has oval shaped silver band holding it together therefore it?s a vagina.
Yeah, to some sexually frustrated minds so is China?s Olympic Stadium? Dhttp//www.fayerwayer.com/2006/06/Estadio_Olimpico_Chino.jpg
Someone?s footprints are being idolized by some people therefore Mecca is null.
This reminds me of visiting Istanbul and seeing the big shoe size. lolhttp//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/footistanbul.jpg
The only thing left for me and many people on this site to rely on is The Quran...
Cool, then read Qur?an and use your ?free mind? to reason.
And it is verey significant and prophetic that Allah in The Quran bothered to describe the Arab deities, as they are still live and well!!!
Idols come in many forms money, ego, intellect, family, nationalism, all sorts of ?isms? and ideologies.
Comprende amigo?
E kuptoj mire faleminderit - I understand good thank you!
Mirupafshim ? Goodbye!
Today?s lesson in Albanian? ;D
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Peace Bro Nun de Plume,
If the Arabs were so "good" at recording their history and complementing it with clear cut archaeological/anthropological evidence, why did they have to use hearsay and a strange system of hadith collection after over 200 years of the death of the Prophet about the lives of the Prophet and his companions to build up that whole time-line you listed...
It seems to me you are making a huge leap of faith by believing what they so cunningly fed you... ;D
You see having them trying to convince me to pray to idol symbols has shattered pretty much any credibility they have in my book...
The only thing left for me and many people on this site to rely on is The Quran...
And it is verey significant and prophetic that Allah in The Quran bothered to describe the Arab deities, as they are still live and well!!!
Comprende amigo?So you are sayinh Muslims claim the ka'ba is a god? What on earth does visting and encircling the ka'ba has to do with worshiping idols? The planets rotate around the sun, so what?
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So you are sayinh Muslims claim the ka'ba is a god? What on earth does visting and encircling the ka'ba has to do with worshiping idols? The planets rotate around the sun, so what?
Oh my god, planets are also the idol worshipers, and we are also rotating arround the sun along with the earth...OH SHI....
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Peace Dudes,
Are you taking the mickey
You have a choice how to rotate or spin or whatever or not to, the planets have no choice in the matter, Allah asked them to Obey whether they like it or not, and they submitted to His Laws (Gravitation, etc).
I am not going to be apologetic to you about my concerns about the historical inconsistencies relating to the life of the Prophet and Companions...
It will be nice for a change to meet people with open minds who are willing to explore issues away from their comfort zone.
I would have preferred this web-site to be called open-minds btw...
Maybe the Israelis are a step forward of us as they looked into the existence of David and Solomon's remnants and found none in Jerusalem after numerous excavations. Why won't we be allowed to do the same in the Hejaz... I will be the first to accept the findings and submit to the facts.
Instead the Wahabists are trying to convince their governments to destroy any evidence of what happened in the area "for fear it will lead to idolatry".
Once again why did Allah care to mention the idols the Arabs worshiped in the time of Mohammed (The Quran being a scripture to be a witness over Mankind for all times).
Ultimately the location of the Kaaba is not the most important, it is the purification that goes with it that matter.
The Quran is very generic and open in many ways as it doesn't concern itself solely with geographical locations...
As for my point of view, I think the prime idol we should destroy is that black draped cube and the black stone it harbors, no matter where Mohammed was born or preached Allah's Scripture... -
Peace Nun,
Timeline Islam?
610 Start revelation of Qur?an
622 Hijra -- migration to Medina
624 Battle of Badr
627 Battle of the Trench
628 Treaty of Hudaybiyyah
630 Conquest of Mecca
End revelation
638 Caliph Omar enters Jerusalem
Early Islam if near Jerusalem (609 ? 632 AD) would have to contend with the likes of Persians and Byzantines which clearly was not the case nor mentioned in history.What you have given is the timeline proposed by Ibn Hisham (died 834 CE) and Tabari (died 923 CE). Their proposed timeline of Islamic history actually starts earlier. It actually starts with the birth of the prophet in the year of the expedition of Abraha into Arabia, which they give as 570CE (you should really use CE instead of AD, unless you take Jesus as your lord).
WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the timeline that you base your entire faith in some pagan stones on is BOGUS. This is because we are fortunate to have irrefutable physical archeological evidence that completely demolishes this timeline.
The starting and thus most important point that they build their timeline on is way off according to the inscription of Abraha, which commemorates his expedition into Arabia. The date on the inscription translates into 552CE, which is 18 years prior to when Ibn Hisham and Tabari proposed date.
We also have Roman manuscripts which tell us the dates of when the Arabs started invading their territories and correlate them with other well documented dates. For example, Jacob of Edessa (died 70, tells us that the kingdom of the Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year. This translates into 620-21CE. According to Ibn Hisham and Tabari, by that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
This is what you are basing your entire belief system on, the antics of a couple of storytellers who came up with bogus dates some 250 years after the fact.
The misdating by Ibn Hisham and Tabari is not surprising or haphazard but is exactly what to be expected. It is part of the wider pattern of clear misdating by the storytellers of Hadith and Sira. The same pattern of misdating that resulted in many traditional narrators living well over a hundred years would naturally result in pushing the actual dates of events forward. So the date of birth of the narrator was pushed back while the date of the event was pushed forward. This is the only way that narrators and events could be made to overlap in a system that is built entirely on hearsay that is validated based the logical fallacy of appeal to the authority of even more hearsay about people who have been dead for many generations (if they even existed).
You are free to adore stones and mindlessly spin around a stone cube based on what Ibn Hisham and Tabari say but don't claim that it has anything to do with the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Bro Ayman,
Thanks for the precisions...
The Arabs have never been good at keeping records, and probably when they clashed with other cultures which were good at it, they most probably felt compelled to revisit their history, the only thing, they were a few hundred years late and needed to resort to hearsay which was a boon to their leaders who found in that a great tool to subjugate and control the newly converted Muslims, but I wonder how many atrocities had to be perpetrated to force feed the Hadiths on the then muslim populace...
What is interesting is that I was talking a few years ago with the son of a Bishop who was well versed in history, and he told me that the Christians owe a great debt of gratitude to the Muslims who preserved their heritage, but as for the history of the Arab Muslims,
they only know what the Arab Muslims believe themselves.
My own side-note was why would they care what the muslims think or know of their history, so long as they do not bother them... since they believe muslims are misled and are destined to hell... if there ever will be a change, it will have to be from within... -
Peace Dudes,
Are you taking the mickey
You have a choice how to rotate or spin or whatever or not to, the planets have no choice in the matter, Allah asked them to Obey whether they like it or not, and they submitted to His Laws (Gravitation, etc).
I am not going to be apologetic to you about my concerns about the historical inconsistencies relating to the life of the Prophet and Companions...
It will be nice for a change to meet people with open minds who are willing to explore issues away from their comfort zone.
I would have preferred this web-site to be called open-minds btw...
Maybe the Israelis are a step forward of us as they looked into the existence of David and Solomon's remnants and found none in Jerusalem after numerous excavations. Why won't we be allowed to do the same in the Hejaz... I will be the first to accept the findings and submit to the facts.
Instead the Wahabists are trying to convince their governments to destroy any evidence of what happened in the area "for fear it will lead to idolatry".
Once again why did Allah care to mention the idols the Arabs worshiped in the time of Mohammed (The Quran being a scripture to be a witness over Mankind for all times).
Ultimately the location of the Kaaba is not the most important, it is the purification that goes with it that matter.
The Quran is very generic and open in many ways as it doesn't concern itself solely with geographical locations...
As for my point of view, I think the prime idol we should destroy is that black draped cube and the black stone it harbors, no matter where Mohammed was born or preached Allah's Scripture...The prime idol you should destroy is your own ego that has convinced you that you are the Abraham of 21st century. You have not understood Tawheed properly. I suggest you read some books on the matter. Can you imagine in your wildest dreams that prophet Mohammad would not destroy the prime idol and leave that task to you to come along. Search for prophecies, probably your name is mentioned somewhere.
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Peace Nun,
What you have given is the timeline proposed by Ibn Hisham (died 834 CE) and Tabari (died 923 CE). Their proposed timeline of Islamic history actually starts earlier. It actually starts with the birth of the prophet in the year of the expedition of Abraha into Arabia, which they give as 570CE (you should really use CE instead of AD, unless you take Jesus as your lord).
WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the timeline that you base your entire faith in some pagan stones on is BOGUS. This is because we are fortunate to have irrefutable physical archeological evidence that completely demolishes this timeline.
The starting and thus most important point that they build their timeline on is way off according to the inscription of Abraha, which commemorates his expedition into Arabia. The date on the inscription translates into 552CE, which is 18 years prior to when Ibn Hisham and Tabari proposed date.
We also have Roman manuscripts which tell us the dates of when the Arabs started invading their territories and correlate them with other well documented dates. For example, Jacob of Edessa (died 70, tells us that the kingdom of the Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year. This translates into 620-21CE. According to Ibn Hisham and Tabari, by that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
This is what you are basing your entire belief system on, the antics of a couple of storytellers who came up with bogus dates some 250 years after the fact.
The misdating by Ibn Hisham and Tabari is not surprising or haphazard but is exactly what to be expected. It is part of the wider pattern of clear misdating by the storytellers of Hadith and Sira. The same pattern of misdating that resulted in many traditional narrators living well over a hundred years would naturally result in pushing the actual dates of events forward. So the date of birth of the narrator was pushed back while the date of the event was pushed forward. This is the only way that narrators and events could be made to overlap in a system that is built entirely on hearsay that is validated based the logical fallacy of appeal to the authority of even more hearsay about people who have been dead for many generations (if they even existed).
You are free to adore stones and mindlessly spin around a stone cube based on what Ibn Hisham and Tabari say but don't claim that it has anything to do with the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
So you accept what roman tablets say over what Tabari sys? What makes you think Tabari's account is wrong and theirs is right? Just because they were romans doesn't make them right. How do you know they are not talking about different raids? Do they mention that these are muslims or just arab tribes trying to rob caravans? You can't challenge an established account of history by your half-truth half-false statements. Why don't you publish your findings in reputable journals to be studied and critiqued? Why waste such a great talent on free-minds.org?
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Peace Bro Ayman,
Thanks for the precisions...
The Arabs have never been good at keeping records, and probably when they clashed with other cultures which were good at it, they most probably felt compelled to revisit their history, the only thing, they were a few hundred years late and needed to resort to hearsay which was a boon to their leaders who found in that a great tool to subjugate and control the newly converted Muslims, but I wonder how many atrocities had to be perpetrated to force feed the Hadiths on the then muslim populace...
What is interesting is that I was talking a few years ago with the son of a Bishop who was well versed in history, and he told me that the Christians owe a great debt of gratitude to the Muslims who preserved their heritage, but as for the history of the Arab Muslims,
they only know what the Arab Muslims believe themselves.
My own side-note was why would they care what the muslims think or know of their history, so long as they do not bother them... since they believe muslims are misled and are destined to hell... if there ever will be a change, it will have to be from within...If arabs were not good in keeping records, then why do you believe in Quran? After all it was arabs who memorized and transmitted Quran from one generation to another generation.
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Peace, Hajirfm. Are you "Muslim", in the sense that you believe that which is in the Quran, and all that which is in the Quran? I.e. the Quran, the whole of it?
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If arabs were not good in keeping records, then why do you believe in Quran? After all it was arabs who memorized and transmitted Quran from one generation to another generation.
As for I know no one believes in the quran because it was well memorised by the arabs. This would be the most funniest thing if someone say this............
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hajirfm,
you are talking non sense, go and get that fragile ego of yours be massaged by a few mullahs and mashaikhs, they will say good boy and pat your head, and promise you paradise... so add Tabari to one of your saints... Ayman was talking about actual tangible, carbon dated archaeological artifacts, but you are so much on the defensive that you only lash out without reading properly what he wrote...
The Arabs did not preserve The Quran, Allah does, and no thanks to them... In fact the reference to bani Israil in Surat Jumuaa fits them very well nowadays, as they carry The Quran without applying or understanding it...
you don't deserve that I answer your bellicose tone any further, so shush go away, shush...