Kaaba again - destroy idols
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So you are sayinh Muslims claim the ka'ba is a god? What on earth does visting and encircling the ka'ba has to do with worshiping idols? The planets rotate around the sun, so what?
Oh my god, planets are also the idol worshipers, and we are also rotating arround the sun along with the earth...OH SHI....
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Peace Dudes,
Are you taking the mickey
You have a choice how to rotate or spin or whatever or not to, the planets have no choice in the matter, Allah asked them to Obey whether they like it or not, and they submitted to His Laws (Gravitation, etc).
I am not going to be apologetic to you about my concerns about the historical inconsistencies relating to the life of the Prophet and Companions...
It will be nice for a change to meet people with open minds who are willing to explore issues away from their comfort zone.
I would have preferred this web-site to be called open-minds btw...
Maybe the Israelis are a step forward of us as they looked into the existence of David and Solomon's remnants and found none in Jerusalem after numerous excavations. Why won't we be allowed to do the same in the Hejaz... I will be the first to accept the findings and submit to the facts.
Instead the Wahabists are trying to convince their governments to destroy any evidence of what happened in the area "for fear it will lead to idolatry".
Once again why did Allah care to mention the idols the Arabs worshiped in the time of Mohammed (The Quran being a scripture to be a witness over Mankind for all times).
Ultimately the location of the Kaaba is not the most important, it is the purification that goes with it that matter.
The Quran is very generic and open in many ways as it doesn't concern itself solely with geographical locations...
As for my point of view, I think the prime idol we should destroy is that black draped cube and the black stone it harbors, no matter where Mohammed was born or preached Allah's Scripture... -
Peace Nun,
Timeline Islam?
610 Start revelation of Qur?an
622 Hijra -- migration to Medina
624 Battle of Badr
627 Battle of the Trench
628 Treaty of Hudaybiyyah
630 Conquest of Mecca
End revelation
638 Caliph Omar enters Jerusalem
Early Islam if near Jerusalem (609 ? 632 AD) would have to contend with the likes of Persians and Byzantines which clearly was not the case nor mentioned in history.What you have given is the timeline proposed by Ibn Hisham (died 834 CE) and Tabari (died 923 CE). Their proposed timeline of Islamic history actually starts earlier. It actually starts with the birth of the prophet in the year of the expedition of Abraha into Arabia, which they give as 570CE (you should really use CE instead of AD, unless you take Jesus as your lord).
WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the timeline that you base your entire faith in some pagan stones on is BOGUS. This is because we are fortunate to have irrefutable physical archeological evidence that completely demolishes this timeline.
The starting and thus most important point that they build their timeline on is way off according to the inscription of Abraha, which commemorates his expedition into Arabia. The date on the inscription translates into 552CE, which is 18 years prior to when Ibn Hisham and Tabari proposed date.
We also have Roman manuscripts which tell us the dates of when the Arabs started invading their territories and correlate them with other well documented dates. For example, Jacob of Edessa (died 70, tells us that the kingdom of the Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year. This translates into 620-21CE. According to Ibn Hisham and Tabari, by that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
This is what you are basing your entire belief system on, the antics of a couple of storytellers who came up with bogus dates some 250 years after the fact.
The misdating by Ibn Hisham and Tabari is not surprising or haphazard but is exactly what to be expected. It is part of the wider pattern of clear misdating by the storytellers of Hadith and Sira. The same pattern of misdating that resulted in many traditional narrators living well over a hundred years would naturally result in pushing the actual dates of events forward. So the date of birth of the narrator was pushed back while the date of the event was pushed forward. This is the only way that narrators and events could be made to overlap in a system that is built entirely on hearsay that is validated based the logical fallacy of appeal to the authority of even more hearsay about people who have been dead for many generations (if they even existed).
You are free to adore stones and mindlessly spin around a stone cube based on what Ibn Hisham and Tabari say but don't claim that it has anything to do with the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Bro Ayman,
Thanks for the precisions...
The Arabs have never been good at keeping records, and probably when they clashed with other cultures which were good at it, they most probably felt compelled to revisit their history, the only thing, they were a few hundred years late and needed to resort to hearsay which was a boon to their leaders who found in that a great tool to subjugate and control the newly converted Muslims, but I wonder how many atrocities had to be perpetrated to force feed the Hadiths on the then muslim populace...
What is interesting is that I was talking a few years ago with the son of a Bishop who was well versed in history, and he told me that the Christians owe a great debt of gratitude to the Muslims who preserved their heritage, but as for the history of the Arab Muslims,
they only know what the Arab Muslims believe themselves.
My own side-note was why would they care what the muslims think or know of their history, so long as they do not bother them... since they believe muslims are misled and are destined to hell... if there ever will be a change, it will have to be from within... -
Peace Dudes,
Are you taking the mickey
You have a choice how to rotate or spin or whatever or not to, the planets have no choice in the matter, Allah asked them to Obey whether they like it or not, and they submitted to His Laws (Gravitation, etc).
I am not going to be apologetic to you about my concerns about the historical inconsistencies relating to the life of the Prophet and Companions...
It will be nice for a change to meet people with open minds who are willing to explore issues away from their comfort zone.
I would have preferred this web-site to be called open-minds btw...
Maybe the Israelis are a step forward of us as they looked into the existence of David and Solomon's remnants and found none in Jerusalem after numerous excavations. Why won't we be allowed to do the same in the Hejaz... I will be the first to accept the findings and submit to the facts.
Instead the Wahabists are trying to convince their governments to destroy any evidence of what happened in the area "for fear it will lead to idolatry".
Once again why did Allah care to mention the idols the Arabs worshiped in the time of Mohammed (The Quran being a scripture to be a witness over Mankind for all times).
Ultimately the location of the Kaaba is not the most important, it is the purification that goes with it that matter.
The Quran is very generic and open in many ways as it doesn't concern itself solely with geographical locations...
As for my point of view, I think the prime idol we should destroy is that black draped cube and the black stone it harbors, no matter where Mohammed was born or preached Allah's Scripture...The prime idol you should destroy is your own ego that has convinced you that you are the Abraham of 21st century. You have not understood Tawheed properly. I suggest you read some books on the matter. Can you imagine in your wildest dreams that prophet Mohammad would not destroy the prime idol and leave that task to you to come along. Search for prophecies, probably your name is mentioned somewhere.
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Peace Nun,
What you have given is the timeline proposed by Ibn Hisham (died 834 CE) and Tabari (died 923 CE). Their proposed timeline of Islamic history actually starts earlier. It actually starts with the birth of the prophet in the year of the expedition of Abraha into Arabia, which they give as 570CE (you should really use CE instead of AD, unless you take Jesus as your lord).
WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the timeline that you base your entire faith in some pagan stones on is BOGUS. This is because we are fortunate to have irrefutable physical archeological evidence that completely demolishes this timeline.
The starting and thus most important point that they build their timeline on is way off according to the inscription of Abraha, which commemorates his expedition into Arabia. The date on the inscription translates into 552CE, which is 18 years prior to when Ibn Hisham and Tabari proposed date.
We also have Roman manuscripts which tell us the dates of when the Arabs started invading their territories and correlate them with other well documented dates. For example, Jacob of Edessa (died 70, tells us that the kingdom of the Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year. This translates into 620-21CE. According to Ibn Hisham and Tabari, by that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
This is what you are basing your entire belief system on, the antics of a couple of storytellers who came up with bogus dates some 250 years after the fact.
The misdating by Ibn Hisham and Tabari is not surprising or haphazard but is exactly what to be expected. It is part of the wider pattern of clear misdating by the storytellers of Hadith and Sira. The same pattern of misdating that resulted in many traditional narrators living well over a hundred years would naturally result in pushing the actual dates of events forward. So the date of birth of the narrator was pushed back while the date of the event was pushed forward. This is the only way that narrators and events could be made to overlap in a system that is built entirely on hearsay that is validated based the logical fallacy of appeal to the authority of even more hearsay about people who have been dead for many generations (if they even existed).
You are free to adore stones and mindlessly spin around a stone cube based on what Ibn Hisham and Tabari say but don't claim that it has anything to do with the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
So you accept what roman tablets say over what Tabari sys? What makes you think Tabari's account is wrong and theirs is right? Just because they were romans doesn't make them right. How do you know they are not talking about different raids? Do they mention that these are muslims or just arab tribes trying to rob caravans? You can't challenge an established account of history by your half-truth half-false statements. Why don't you publish your findings in reputable journals to be studied and critiqued? Why waste such a great talent on free-minds.org?
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Peace Bro Ayman,
Thanks for the precisions...
The Arabs have never been good at keeping records, and probably when they clashed with other cultures which were good at it, they most probably felt compelled to revisit their history, the only thing, they were a few hundred years late and needed to resort to hearsay which was a boon to their leaders who found in that a great tool to subjugate and control the newly converted Muslims, but I wonder how many atrocities had to be perpetrated to force feed the Hadiths on the then muslim populace...
What is interesting is that I was talking a few years ago with the son of a Bishop who was well versed in history, and he told me that the Christians owe a great debt of gratitude to the Muslims who preserved their heritage, but as for the history of the Arab Muslims,
they only know what the Arab Muslims believe themselves.
My own side-note was why would they care what the muslims think or know of their history, so long as they do not bother them... since they believe muslims are misled and are destined to hell... if there ever will be a change, it will have to be from within...If arabs were not good in keeping records, then why do you believe in Quran? After all it was arabs who memorized and transmitted Quran from one generation to another generation.
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Peace, Hajirfm. Are you "Muslim", in the sense that you believe that which is in the Quran, and all that which is in the Quran? I.e. the Quran, the whole of it?
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If arabs were not good in keeping records, then why do you believe in Quran? After all it was arabs who memorized and transmitted Quran from one generation to another generation.
As for I know no one believes in the quran because it was well memorised by the arabs. This would be the most funniest thing if someone say this............
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hajirfm,
you are talking non sense, go and get that fragile ego of yours be massaged by a few mullahs and mashaikhs, they will say good boy and pat your head, and promise you paradise... so add Tabari to one of your saints... Ayman was talking about actual tangible, carbon dated archaeological artifacts, but you are so much on the defensive that you only lash out without reading properly what he wrote...
The Arabs did not preserve The Quran, Allah does, and no thanks to them... In fact the reference to bani Israil in Surat Jumuaa fits them very well nowadays, as they carry The Quran without applying or understanding it...
you don't deserve that I answer your bellicose tone any further, so shush go away, shush... -
Peace, Hajirfm. Are you "Muslim", in the sense that you believe that which is in the Quran, and all that which is in the Quran? I.e. the Quran, the whole of it?
Salam.
I am muslim in the sense that was taught by prophet Mohammad SAW I testify that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah and that prophet Mohammad SAW is god's last messenger to mankind. I pray and fast, give zakah (got no money though but I will if I have) and insha allah will make pilgrimage to Makkah (Hajj) as soon as I have the means to. Of course I believe in Quran as the word of god. I also believe that I have to ask those who know when I have questions about the Quran. I believe that there are authorities in every subject including quranic sciences. There are people who have spent their entire lives studying the Quran and arabic language and have studied the ahadith and the seerah relating to Quranic verses. I prefer their opinion to any kid's opinion who is studying Quran for a hobby and comes up with theories to make sense of Quran in the way that he is more comfortable with instead of trying to understand Quran the way it was revealed to prophet and the way that the companions and our righteous forefathers understood it. These kids don't impress me. They only impress people like themselves.
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Noble reply, hajirfm.
Now we know you also believe in these verses and take them as 100% truth, and shall seek to uphold them, by rooting out any potential contradictions in your methodology of life
015.009
YUSUFALI We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
PICKTHAL Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
SHAKIR Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.015.010
YUSUFALI We did send messengers before thee amongst the religious sects of old
PICKTHAL We verily sent (messengers) before thee among the factions of the men of old.
SHAKIR And certainly We sent (messengers) before you among the nations of yore.015.011
YUSUFALI But never came a messenger to them but they mocked him.
PICKTHAL And never came there unto them a messenger but they did mock him.
SHAKIR And there never came a messenger to them but they mocked him.015.012
YUSUFALI Even so do we let it creep into the hearts of the sinners -
PICKTHAL Thus do We make it traverse the hearts of the guilty
SHAKIR Thus do We make it to enter into the hearts of the guilty;015.013
YUSUFALI That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of the ancients have passed away.
PICKTHAL They believe not therein, though the example of the men of old hath gone before.
SHAKIR They do not believe in it, and indeed the example of the former people has already passed.015.014
YUSUFALI Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,
PICKTHAL And even if We opened unto them a gate of heaven and they kept mounting through it,
SHAKIR And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while,015.015
YUSUFALI They would only say "Our eyes have been intoxicated Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery."
PICKTHAL They would say Our sight is wrong - nay, but we are folk bewitched.
SHAKIR They would certainly say Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people.015.016
YUSUFALI It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders;
PICKTHAL And verily in the heaven we have set mansions of the stars, and We have beautified it for beholders.
SHAKIR And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.Estimated elapsed time since birth of prophet Muhammad 1400 years
Now, what is your opinion on the status of the prophet Muhammad, taking into account, the above data presented, and how do you percieve this according to 015.013 of the Reading, which I have taken the liberty of highlighting in such a way that you would more likely miss the broad side of a barn?
Oh, and to all of you others Verse 13 of Surah 15, Al-Hijr, of the Reading pretty much starts and finishes the debate. CASE CLOSED. Period.
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Noble reply, hajirfm.
Now we know you also believe in these verses and take them as 100% truth, and shall seek to uphold them, by rooting out any potential contradictions in your methodology of life
Estimated elapsed time since birth of prophet Muhammad 1400 years
Now, what is your opinion on the status of the prophet Muhammad, taking into account, the above data presented, and how do you percieve this according to 015.013 of the Reading, which I have taken the liberty of highlighting in such a way that you would more likely miss the broad side of a barn?
Oh, and to all of you others Verse 13 of Surah 15, Al-Hijr, of the Reading pretty much starts and finishes the debate. CASE CLOSED. Period.
What are you trying to prove? What is the case that is closed? Are you having an imaginary debate with yourself? Of course I am aware of those quranic verses. It is God that is preserving the Quran but He has done so through nobel companions and true muslims of previous generations. God did not preserve it by carving the verses on metal tablets! If they were so untrustworthy as someone here suggested then why did god praise the companions and elevated them in the Quran so much?
Also I think some people are using logical fallacies to further their agendas. God condemns blind following of ancestors. But I am not following the previous generation of muslims blindly. I use my intellect in following the scripture and I don't think I am less intelligent than any of the people on this forum. But our intellect has a limit and we should respect the authorities in religion who have a greater knowledge and wisdom in reading the scripture. I for sure take whatever Tabari says over what some guy behind his laptop somwhere in the world with a fake name is saying.
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What are you trying to prove? What is the case that is closed? Are you having an imaginary debate with yourself? Of course I am aware of those quranic verses. It is God that is preserving the Quran but He has done so through nobel companions and true muslims of previous generations. God did not preserve it by carving the verses on metal tablets!
Good point yes
But our intellect has a limit and we should respect the authorities in religion who have a greater knowledge and wisdom in reading the scripture. I for sure take whatever Tabari says over what some guy behind his laptop somwhere in the world with a fake name is saying.
Bad point, nope
siki
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Peace all,
Some people love to go see their beloved black cuboid idol and the black stone representing Allat and Dushara and uphold the pagan rituals by mindlessly spinning seven times around them and kissing them, exactly like the pagan Arabs did, thus celebrating the birth of their sun-god. Where is this sanctioned by The God in al-qur'aan ? If that is not setting up partners with The God then what is ? Then they claim they are "muslims". If that is not hypocrisy then what is ?
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
12106 And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners.
The God has told us that He will expose the hypocrites
964 The hypocrites fear that a chapter will be sent down which will expose what is in their hearts. Say "Mock, for God will bring out what you fear."
This is how He exposed them
631 When the hypocrites come to you they say "We bear witness that you are the messenger of God." And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
And this is what He recommends
849 The hypocrites and those who have a disease in their hearts said "These people have been deceived by their system." But whoever puts his trust in God, then God is Noble, Wise.
Some people refuse to accept when The God tells us that He made His message clear
2187 ................. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
3118 ................. We have made clear for you the signs if you comprehend.
5717 ................. We have made clear to you the signs, perhaps you may understand.
1689 And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the scripture clearly explaining everything, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.
They refuse to accept when The God tells them that it is up to Him to explain His signs to us
7517 It is for Us to gather it into a compilation.
7518 So when We compile it, you shall follow its compilation.
7519 Then it is for Us to explain it.They insist on seeking the help of the so called "religious authorities" to explain The God's signs to them and to guide them to the truth, instead of using their own mind and reason and putting their trust in The God
1035 Say "Are there any of those whom you set up as partners who can guide to the truth?" Say "God guides to the truth. Is He who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or the one who does not guide except after he is guided? What is wrong with you, how do you judge?"
This is what The God says about the so called "religious authorities"
934 O you who believe, many of the religious leaders and monks consume people's money in falsehood, and they turn away from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.
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Peace Ayman,
(you should really use CE instead of AD, unless you take Jesus as your lord).
Anno Domini; AD = Christian/Common Era; CE.
It?s a standard. Perhaps you should use AH; that is if you believe there was Hijra.What year according to your timeline; same as below?
http//www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_tab6.html#end6
"622 on 16th Tammuz (16th July AD 622) = 1 AH
According to Elias of Nisibis, this day is the beginning of the first year of the kingdom of the Arabs, that is to say the first year of the Hadj according to the Julian, (not the present Gregorian) calendar. This date AH 1, is used as year 1 for dates given in the Islamic era, (AH)."What about city? Surely you believe there was a city?
2791 For me, I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this CITY, Him Who has sanctified it and to Whom (belong) all things and I am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will,-
901 I do call to witness this CITY;-
902 And thou art a freeman of this CITY;-WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the timeline that you base your entire faith in some pagan stones on is BOGUS. This is because we are fortunate to have irrefutable physical archeological evidence that completely demolishes this timeline.
The starting and thus most important point that they build their timeline on is way off according to the inscription of Abraha, which commemorates his expedition into Arabia. The date on the inscription translates into 552CE, which is 18 years prior to when Ibn Hisham and Tabari proposed date.
Really ? which expedition by Abraha, to where, and which year?
http//www.dacb.org/stories/ethiopia/_abraha.html
"We are fortunate in possessing irrefutable epigraphic sources which throw further light on 'Abraha's career. Of these the most important is the long inscription on the Marib dam which records the quelling of an insurrection backed by a son of the deposed ruler Esimiphaeus in the year 657 of the Sabaean era, i.e. between 540-550 A.D.; vital repairs effected to the dam later in the same year; the reception of envoys from the negus, from Byzantium, from Persia and from Harith b. Djabalat, the phylarch of Arabia; and the completion of repairs to the dam in the following year, followed by a great feast of rejoicing. The inscription indicates that the reign of 'Abraha was a period of security and prosperity for the Yemen. The royal title adopted by 'Abraha is similar to that of his immediate predecessors and to that of Emperor Kal?b, "King of Saba' and dh?-Rayd?n and Hadramawt and Yamanat and of their Arabs on the plateau and the lowland." A further text (Ryckmans 506) discovered at Muraygh?n records a defeat inflicted by 'Abraha on the North Arabian tribe of Ma'add in the year 662 of the Sabaean era.
No reliable information exists about the date of 'Abraha's death although tradition places it immediately after his expedition to Mecca."
http//www.britannica.com/eb/article-9003378/Abraha
We also have Roman manuscripts which tell us the dates of when the Arabs started invading their territories and correlate them with other well documented dates. For example, Jacob of Edessa (died 70, tells us that the kingdom of the Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year. This translates into 620-21CE. According to Ibn Hisham and Tabari, by that time the prophet hasn't even emigrated yet!
http//www.1911encyclopedia.org/Jacob_Of_Edessa
"In the literature of his country Jacob holds much the same place as Jerome among the Latin fathers"
Care to post exactly what he wrote with his unbiased opinion and why?
This is what you are basing your entire belief system on...
You are free to adore stones and mindlessly spin around a stone cube based on what Ibn Hisham and Tabari say but don't claim that it has anything to do with the great reading.
To me it?s simply a rock and likewise you are free to follow conjectures that spin inside your head and base your entire belief system on Jacob of Edessa readings.
Peace
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Some people love to go see their beloved black cuboid idol and the black stone representing Allat and Dushara and uphold the pagan rituals by mindlessly spinning seven times around them and kissing them, exactly like the pagan Arabs did, thus celebrating the birth of their sun-god. Where is this sanctioned by The God in al-qur'aan ? If that is not setting up partners with The God then what is ? Then they claim they are "muslims". If that is not hypocrisy then what is ?
Bro Tanveer this is not true, people do not know the truth, neither they know that black cuboid is an idol. I myself didn't know that and thus wanted to go there for hajj but now I would never ever go there. If I have to go I would go with a hammer to smash the Idols http//www.smileyhut.com/angry/crash.gif. Alhamdulillah. But I wouldn't say those people Mushrik because they dont know it.
Peace....
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Bro Tanveer this is not true, people do not know the truth, neither they know that black cuboid is an idol. I myself didn't know that and thus wanted to go there for hajj but now I would never ever go there. If I have to go I would go with a hammer to smash the Idols http//www.smileyhut.com/angry/crash.gif. Alhamdulillah. But I wouldn't say those people Mushrik because they dont know it.
Peace....
Maybe they are not mushriks, but their likeness is "The likeness of those who were entrusted with the "torah" but did not commit to it, is the likeness of a donkey carrying a load of books..."
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622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
623 Then, their only excuse was to say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.
most people dont believe they are mushriks