Was the term "daraba" sneakily turned to "beating" by hypocrites?
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I've been married for over 18 years and I will tell you that a man who decides that he can hit a woman for one good reason, can easily and likely find another 'good reason' to hit her. This is a fact of faulty human behavior. Not an assumption. I don't believe that god would ask those of us in a close relationship to set up a situation where one is forcefully over another. Once the cat gets out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in, as they say. If people are not careful, the man (or dominant one) will become more and more dominant and abusive, while the other person will shrink back to avoid trouble. It's not a pretty situation.
I will keep the shirk in the picture. If you fear and obey someone other than God (in my context here, meaning the subservient person in the relationship) then that, indeed, by definition is SHIRK. Can you tell me how it is not????
God asks us to obey our parents. Does that make us mushrik? God asks us to obey the messenger and 'ulul amr' and does that make us mushrik? We obey the laws of the country we live in. Does that make us mushrik? NO! Shirk exists but it is not in obeying other people. Every soldier on a battlefield has to obey the commands of his commander. Every player has to obey the commands of his coach. These don't make you a mushrik. But if you obey a person that is inviting you to evil and you follow him then you have sinned. Even that is not shirk. Shirk is to associate partners to Allah or worship others besides Allah or give one of the attributions of Allah to someone other than him.
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Hajirfm,
Let me ask you again
If 6.5 billion people on Earth exist
1.3 of these are Muslim, or claim to be
What about the 5.2 billion remaining? Are they mushrik?
Peace OPF. The other 5.2 billion are non-muslim. Among them are the people of the book, atheists, agnostics, etc. Not every non-muslim is a mushrik. When I mentioned 1.3 billion muslims, I didn't mean to say that their quantity proves anything. But it's absurd to believe that only a small group called aloners (what a name) are true muslims and everyone else is a mushrik. This is an extremist opinion. Islam is the middle way. Come back to Islam. We have a name that god has chosen for us i.e. 'muslim' not 'quran aloner'. Where did that name come from? Is there anything in the Quran that refers to such a term? Do we have a term called 'quranioon' in the Quran? No. We only read 'mu'minoon, muslimoon' those who pray, fast and give charity, etc. Satan is smart and is turning your intelligence against you. But you should act smarter than him and believe like the rest of us.
Why would god deny his guidance to so many generations of muslims and then lead only a very few people led by a man that we don't know and have never seen. He is not brave enough to make his call public. He hides behind websites and e-articles. Why isn't he out there calling people to the truth if he claims he has the truth in his posession? Why isn't he out there breaking the idols like Abraham and Mohammad did? This only proves that he is not sincere in his call to tawheed and he has other agendas unknown to us.
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God asks us to obey our parents. Does that make us mushrik? God asks us to obey the messenger and 'ulul amr' and does that make us mushrik? We obey the laws of the country we live in. Does that make us mushrik? NO! Shirk exists but it is not in obeying other people. Shirk is to associate partners to Allah or worship others besides Allah or give one of the attributions of Allah to someone other than him.
I see what you're saying, but your inexperience in life is showing through the content of your post. You seem to not know or understand what happens to a wife's spirit and soul once she gets into this state we have been talking about. If there's something she longs to do that is allowed by God's law, but her husband/brothers/father/etc. tell her she can't and she doesn't do it despite it being perfectly halal, then who's authority is she taking over the authority of God? The authority of that husband/brother/father/ etc. I do not see the health and well-being in blindly following the popular adage 'obey your husband' . hail hypno
We must obviously at this point agree to disagree.
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Salam,
The Quran DOES say that if your parents are Mushriks - DO NOT FOLLOW THEM.
If you're in trouble and you look up and say "Oh Mohammad! or Dear Ali or Angels" or something like that! there's a big problem! THERE'S ONLY ALLAH who can help us. If you pray and you think that you're praying for Prophet or Angels or Prophet's family and they're sitting there in heaven with God, then oops! there's a problem! THERE'S ONLY ONE ALLAH to love and worship. That's what Quran teaches us (Not parents or hadith or the way we've been brought up!). These habits are extremely hard for some people to change. But you just have to ask yourself how much do you actually love God? and does it bother you to mention him alone? or follow His book only, when he tells us that his hadith is the best hadith and that his Quran is complete and perfect. bravo
Some idiots run along to marry more than one wife and they say "the prophet did it!", they don't understand that the prophet did it for humanitarian reasons as some women were orphans and many men died in wars. People don't know the prophet but imagine his personality from fabricated hadith unfortunately. The Quran doesn't say things like if someone changes their religion KILL them. or a woman must ask husband's permission before she fasts. or if you die a martyr you get 72 vergins in heaven? brickwall READ QURAN AS A WHOLE (for values) & COMPLETE BOOK of everything from laws to guidelines to examples to things we don't even know about yet.
Always respect your parents, but you don't have to follow what they believe. Prophet Abraham is an example.
Following the prophet is following the same example of Abraham (worship ONE God, be Muslim to God, be righteous etc.) NOT COPY the prophet's personal life or how he lived in that century. We've discussed this in another thread!!!
Peace. peace
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Peace OPF. The other 5.2 billion are non-muslim. Among them are the people of the book, atheists, agnostics, etc. Not every non-muslim is a mushrik. When I mentioned 1.3 billion muslims, I didn't mean to say that their quantity proves anything. But it's absurd to believe that only a small group called aloners (what a name) are true muslims and everyone else is a mushrik. This is an extremist opinion. Islam is the middle way. Come back to Islam. We have a name that god has chosen for us i.e. 'muslim' not 'quran aloner'. Where did that name come from? Is there anything in the Quran that refers to such a term? Do we have a term called 'quranioon' in the Quran? No. We only read 'mu'minoon, muslimoon' those who pray, fast and give charity, etc. Satan is smart and is turning your intelligence against you. But you should act smarter than him and believe like the rest of us.
Why would god deny his guidance to so many generations of muslims and then lead only a very few people led by a man that we don't know and have never seen. He is not brave enough to make his call public. He hides behind websites and e-articles. Why isn't he out there calling people to the truth if he claims he has the truth in his posession? Why isn't he out there breaking the idols like Abraham and Mohammad did? This only proves that he is not sincere in his call to tawheed and he has other agendas unknown to us.
Peace, Hajirfm
Good to see you're being reasonable.
But it's absurd to believe that only a small group called aloners (what a name) are true muslims and everyone else is a mushrik.
I see no problem with either the label "God aloners" or "Quran aloners". I would be very, very, very proud if someone called me that )
Now, I don't really think anyone can say such a thing, that only a small group of people are the only people that are not mushriks. That would, as you say, be an extremist opinion, and of course, Islam is the moderate view. As for the latter, the label is simply a language device that carries specific meaning - that someone rejects every other form of text/communication as "religious guidance" but the Quran. This does not mean that one must reject everything - because as we know, God sends messengers and scripture to every civilisation. From that, we can infer that many texts that contain much wisdom but do not seem "islamic" may still contain divine guidance. The term Muslim, by definition, i.e. those who submit to one God, would encompass some 1.3 billion "Muslims" + 2.1 billion "Christians" + 14.6 million "Jews", because they are all monotheistic and claim to follow the religion of Abraham (with the exception of nutty trinitarian Christians). If we include pantheists and other monotheists, this figure is substantial. Now, "mu'minoon" would still define a large majority of people - though they may not be well-versed, they still uphold what they percieve to be prayer, fasting, charity, and so on, while being monotheistic. The term "aloners", is just a linguistic device that we can use to differentiate between groups of Muslims (broad sense), much like the terms "Sunni", "Shi'ite", "Christian", "Jew", etc. There is nothing in God's texts that say we should label ourselves with ANY of those terms I labelled, yet people do so - for ease of use. Of course, with all this, there is a rejection of ideals by each group, but that is where they all go wrong.
Why would god deny his guidance to so many generations of muslims and then lead only a very few people led by a man that we don't know and have never seen.
Actually, that is incorrect. We have had God's guidance for the past 3000 years+. Prior to 1400 years, humanity had the Tawrat, the Injiyl, etc. We had the Quran for the last 1400 years. This is God's guidance, is it not? Take into account this verse
002.142
SHAKIR The fools among the people will say What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.There is no reason to appeal to the majority, because that verse nullifies everything. The truth is, we have had God's guidance for all human history, but we collectively have rejected his signs in favour of shortcuts - the hadith, talmud, the ways of the leaders who demand blind faith in their bastardised version of events. Had anybody wished to do so, they could pick up a Quran, and take heed, they could apply their reasoning, sight and hearing (1736) to discern what is God's guidance and not. But do the majority? As again, they rely on shortcut interpretations, static interpretations rooted firmly in the 7th century or 3000BC.
He hides behind websites and e-articles. Why isn't he out there calling people to the truth if he claims he has the truth in his posession? Why isn't he out there breaking the idols like Abraham and Mohammad did? This only proves that he is not sincere in his call to tawheed and he has other agendas unknown to us.
Incorrect. This is a logical fallacy - argument against the messenger. In this day and age, where Muslims, Christians and Jews, and even atheists are thirsty for the blood of the righteous, he could not possibly do so. Look at the examples of "Muslims" when their divine God, "Muhammad" was simply drawn in those Danish cartoons. What did they do? They blew up several embassies, boycotted arbitrary Danish products, they burnt down churches, they killed nuns, they burnt American flags (?!?!?!?), and they rioted, pilfered, and pillaged the land. Look at the death threats towards those who challenge the majority view deeply entrenched in blind faith - what of the liberal Iranian who has people calling for his death? Of the Egyptian blogger, declared an apostate by some idiotic fools who think they have better authority to judge than God himself, simply because he criticized the pinnacle of blind faith and evil that is Al-Azhar?
In light of this, and in light of the ridiculous disinformation tactics used by those who wish to uphold paganistic Islam, do you think this anonymous should reveal himself? Why? So that he can be labelled a "blasphemer" and a "heretic" by the Gods on Earth? The so-called Gods who themselves will die and answer to the real God who will question their idiotic polytheism?
No. He does not even have to reveal himself, regardless of this - the message is what counts.The call is very, very public. A google search for "Quran study" pulls this site up as the first link - in other words, those who wish to be guided will find this link first. Which is, one of the ways in which I found this place (aside from being referred to derogatorily in another Sunni forum). You simply do not get more public than the internet. If you wish to know his identity, it's very simple. Reverse DNS lookup. Even WHOIS.
This site does not claim to have "THE TRUTH" but "a way to the truth". Of course, it must be tested in its claims. So far, I haven't found much discrepancy in the core articles.
"Why isn't he out there breaking the idols like Abraham and Mohammad did?" - The idols can be broken in two ways. One is physically taking a hammer to them - another, is taking them out mentally. Clearly, this is a case of the latter. Do you think that in modern times, it is feasible to walk to the Ka'ba and smash the black stone to pieces, and the purported footsteps of Ibrahim? No, the Saudis will have your head in pieces for that. Maybe such an attempt would thereby prove whether or not the Ka'ba is indeed "bayt-al-haram", a place of safety where nobody can harm he who is within. But is someone going to pit years of educated life for such a simplistic test? There is more potential in living hidden and spreading knowledge than dying for a cause in which the odds are 1/2 (anthropically) that you may live or die.
"This only proves that he is not sincere in his call to tawheed and he has other agendas unknown to us."
That is high slander. Proof, or don't bother.
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Salam,
A woman can be Nashooz (deviate) because of herself or as a consequence of her having a bad husband. BUT ...
Another proof that the word "edrebhunna" means strike against them/ take a (temporary) break away from them is the verse which actually follows verse 34. So the couple have reached a bad stage in the relationship and they're on strike. E.g. He's at his friend's house or in a hotel OR she went to stay at her family's house etc. ((They've obviously parted each other at this stage))
... So then verse 35 says if you fear "shiqaq baynihima" = being torn apart from each other (permanently) then send (eb3athu) a judge from his family and a judge from her family if they want reconciliation God supports what's between them. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.
(what's between them = the 2 judges that are trying to help)In a later revelation it is clear that the strike period (when couples have extreme problems) is 3 months or wait till she gives birth. God's values are clear and they don't change. If you know what God values from his book (as a whole), you understand him completely! it goes straight in your heart and you know it like you know your children. It is clear.
No need for linguistic confusions ... it's about what God values (loves reconciliation, hates divorce, loves equality etc.)
So what's so confusing about what God says? God is clear and straight forward. Always cross-refrence! God repeats himself in different verses (ayats) using different expressions, but his values always stay the same . You don't need Linguistics. angel
SALAM peace
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"Is Quran a clear book or not? If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran? Why didn't god also send down a dictionary with Quran because if you send a code to me without the key I wouldn't be ablet o read it and your message is not complete."
Peace be on to you all !
First of all Quranic arabic is not the spoking language of arabs. I will answer your questions 1 by 1 through Quran.
"Is Quran a clear book or not?"
Chapter The Moon (Al-Qamar) 5417
And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
it is easy only for those who really want to take guaidance from it."If it is a clear book then why an arab speaker has to consult a dictionary to know what a very ordinary and popular word like 'dha-ra-ba' means in the Quran?"
Chapter Detailed (Fussilat) 4144
And if We had made it a Quran in a foreign tongue, they would certainly have said Why have not its communications been made clear? What! a foreign (tongue) and an Arabian! Say It is to those who believe a guidance and a healing; and (as for) those who do not believe, there is a heaviness in their ears and it is obscure to them; these shall be called to from a far-off place."Why didn't god also send down a dictionary with Quran because if you send a code to me without the key I wouldn't be ablet o read it and your message is not complete."
Chapter (Muhammad) 4724
Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?Chapter The Children of Israel (Ban? Israel) 1789
And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude! -
Salam,
I have already explained it. Cross-reference and see God's values.
the word itself in the Quran is not Adhrebuhunna and it's not Idhrebuhunna. It's actually got a silent Alif (A). hdrebuhunna.
Salam
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Salam sister samia,
According to the Ayat/verse of Al-Quran in Chapter Women (Al-Nes??) 482
Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.So the point is if we took wrong translation of any word it will not be fit into another ayat/verse in which the same word was used.
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Few times, when i have engaged in discussions regarding correct meanings of a certain Arabic word, i have come to realize, that searching out the correct meaning of a word in a given sentence, is much more than picking up a dictionary or lane, and randomly replacing it with a meaning of one's suiting.
It requires plenty of skills and a decent amount of experience in making an accurate/correct choice.lets take the example of the same word Darraba or strike in English , which i posted earlier.
"strike" , meaning hit
strike out , meaning cancellation
on strike, or the union called for a strike,
The word strike gives three different meanings , and to pin point the correct meanings in context of the sentence, the words used before or after are very important.
Any person who does not have a basic knowledge of the language or its grammar, is at a significant disadvantage . It becomes tricky for a novice to determine, or to give his/her opinion on an advanced " evolved meaning of a certain word," let me give one more example.cold, means cool,
But when used for a man/woman, means disintrested in sex.
And Coool ,, when used for man/woman, yet would convey a different meaning.
One can pick up any word of english, and it would convey different meanings in a given sentence with a certain combination of words or/ vowels.
This forum badly needs expert/experienced people, and i am afraid we have lost one of them , I mean brother A Bhagat. He was a great asset to the forum, and i would give due respect to his opinion on any controversial issue. Brother A.B! if you read this , please come back. I dont know about others , but i do miss you
Meanwhile , i dug up some old threads regarding the use of "Darabaa" in 4-34, and my opinion is strengthen about the use of this word in this sentence, which means, "strike" , and oh yes , in my earlier post i had said , that show me one women who is willing to accept a gender biased commandment, i did come across one, and her name is Boost" Madam ! i am impressed bravo
peace
siki
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Salaam siki
On your quest for the meaning of a word, you should also consider, not just what it means, but also what it CANNOT mean. It is not only because I am a woman, but because I believe in the attributes of God as fair, non biased and has consistency in his commands, rewarding and punishment. One should also consider how He used the same word in the qur'aan.
I posted the word daraba, meaning to strike, as used in the qur'aan. All your comment was you wanted to see the other usages of daraba with different meanings, completely missing the point. Many others, including me, also posted messages showing why it cannot mean daraba, your comment after the first of my posts was that you were disappointed! Everyone on this forum, except you and hairfm, were trying to refute this meaning, not just based on dictionary meaning, but mainly on common sense, and if there is any kind of justice which condones inflictng punishment for a "crime" not yet committed. But it seems you are fine with all these flows brought in if we accept "to beat" as the best option.
This forum badly needs expert/experienced people, and i am afraid we have lost one of them , I mean brother A Bhagat. He was a great asset to the forum, and i would give due respect to his opinion on any controversial issue. Brother A.B! if you read this , please come back. I dont know about others , but i do miss you
If you miss AB so much, go to his forum. For me, manners, humility and rationality, and above all avoiding aggressive and very rude language, are more important than expertise in Arabic, which, surprisingly, you believe he has.
show me one women who is willing to accept a gender biased commandment, i did come across one, and her name is Boost" Madam ! i am impressed bravo
I do not see BOOST posting on this thread, and I wonder if she explicitly accepts this understanding.
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Gender biased commandments? Let's see men getting pregnant first.
Then you can use that argument.
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Salaam siki
If you miss AB so much, go to his forum. For me, manners, humility and rationality, and above all avoiding aggressive and very rude language, are more important than expertise in Arabic, which, surprisingly, you believe he has.
I do not see BOOST posting on this thread, and I wonder if she explicitly accepts this understanding.
Samia !you too are an asset of this forum , and i do appreciate your language expertise. but A.B probably has more experience under his belt . I agree with you regarding his temper.May be he gets frustrated when he finds drastic twisting of the words of Quran by some inexperienced learners.
About boost , ya you are right she is not posting in this thread , but i found her posts in a similar old thread, i do not know her stance now, but i found her attitude to be simply fantastic.
About the term darabaa , i shall post later,
peace
siki
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In answer to the question, it was not necessarily done so 'sneakily' as you put it. Its just simply the interpretation at the time which endured till now, also based upon the social structure and the standing of males and females in those societies.
I don't think it was done maliciously on purpose >D
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In answer to the question, it was not necessarily done so 'sneakily' as you put it. Its just simply the interpretation at the time which endured till now, also based upon the social structure and the standing of males and females in those societies.
I don't think it was done maliciously on purpose >
Allow me to disagree with you. When scholars try to add to the verse descriptions to what daraba means to water it down, I then know they know very well what daraba means, supported by its usage in the qur'aan strike to kill/cause harm. When scholars twist the meaning of nushouz in a way that fits women only, forgetting, or rather ignoring the fact that a husband can also be nashez as mentioned in the qur'aan, and ignoring the verb "yakhsha" which indicates that nushouz is not yet committed, I know they are trying to deceive. And most of all, when I see that they are not looking into God's attributes as fair and just, and at His system of reward and punishment that does not distinguish between male and female, I know where they are looking at and where they get their information and teachings from. These interpretations came to us centuries after the death of the prophet. I do not believe that was the way the prophet understood it or that he allowed it to be understood in this way. These interpretations stand as a lame duck between their pre and post eras.
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Salaam siki
. Many others, including me, also posted messages showing why it cannot mean daraba, your comment after the first of my posts was that you were disappointed! Everyone on this forum, except you and hairfm, were trying to refute this meaning,.
My dear sister samia
assalamo alakumi had already explained to you as to why was i disappointed, not because what you think of Darraba means in this ayat , but because of the kind of arguments you presented in support. during my recent search i was surprised to find , sister Boost replying you almost the same when you posted your arguments , here are they for your reference.
Quote by samia
If this is considered a punishment,; how wouldn't God give the details of which part of the body to beat, with what and/or how many (beats)?reply by boost
There are many topics in the quran that don't have such details. The salat for one has virtually no detail of how to do it. Does that mean that salat should have a different meaning?Quote by samia.
Secondly where in the quraan do individulads apply / excute the punishment?reply by boost
Is there an example of everything stated in the quran?samia ! it is quiet comfortable/ helpfull to have a person like you around. but sometimes when one is not very careful in posting arguments, they leave a dent on ones credibility
peace handshake
siki