Natural disasters
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Peace Genteel,
But can humans or any other living creature control "natural phenomenon", such as the forces of nature?
Control? I doubt. But manipulate? I think, if not already, then certainly soon enough. I recall reading somewhere about some treaty between the US and some other superpower that included an agreement "not to manipulate the weather against each other". There was speculation (and still is) that US scientists drop certain chemicals into clouds to trigger thunderstorms. It's really not that far-fetch since once we figure out how something works, it's not too long before we can duplicate it. I think the success rate of triggering lightning at the research centers is something like 70%.
If humans built homes and manufactured bombs, would you call it "natural" without intervention or innovation?
That's the thing, really. I mean where do we draw the line as to what's a natural innovation and what's not? Ravens have been known to carry walnuts up to power lines, drop them in front of cars, wait for the cars to drive over them and crush the shell, and then merrily fly down to reap the rewards.
I've seen possums in my backyard as close as 3 feet.
Yuck!! I hate those bastards. Plus, they can't see all that well. I was out in my yard one night and this one opposum was headed straight for me. I had to stomp real hard on the ground to make him aware that I was there. They got nasty fangs and a nasty "don't-come-near-me-because-I'm-dead-and-decomposing" aroma, if you get too close.
Groundhogs, red foxes, bears and large cats only in zoos but heard in news their traveling vacations in suburban and hilly inhabited areas, ready to devour humans and some of their livestocks for meals. We humans must be zesty for them.
I saw a bear last year. That was amazing. I have a groundhog in living underneath my backyard. He's pretty cool. We play poker sometimes ;D But I never heard of any cats round my neck of the woods. A few years back some dude living a few blocks from my house had his pet seized. Apparently, he went to a flea market in PA and picked up a "kitten" which turned out to be a cougar cub. Yeah, 150lbs later and people weren't too thrilled about it - although he swore it got along well with his kids. Go figure.
Peace,
Tay -
Hi Tay,
Control? I doubt. But manipulate? I think, if not already, then certainly soon enough. I recall reading somewhere about some treaty between the US and some other superpower that included an agreement "not to manipulate the weather against each other". There was speculation (and still is) that US scientists drop certain chemicals into clouds to trigger thunderstorms. It's really not that far-fetch since once we figure out how something works, it's not too long before we can duplicate it. I think the success rate of triggering lightning at the research centers is something like 70%.
but why would anybody want to do that?
I remember those conspiracy theories were people were claiming that America caused the tsunami by putting a bomb in the ocean.
They seem to far-fetched coz there is not logical reason to why anybody would want to do that.
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Peace Angel,
but why would anybody want to do that?
The same reason people make bombs that can level entire cities. It used to be because nations wanted any and all advantages possible over their "enemies". Nowadays, I'm afraid, it's all about keeping the military industrial complex alive and kicking.
I remember those conspiracy theories were people were claiming that America caused the tsunami by putting a bomb in the ocean. They seem to far-fetched coz there is not logical reason to why anybody would want to do that.
I never heard that. But, I wouldn't put it past any world leader.
Peace,
Tay -
Agree with tay on the fact that humans are a part of nature and not really synthetic, we are the only species that can work with or against the environment with some degree of foresight,effect and technology. How can one really say that humans are the only ones out of harmony with the rest of nature? I mean a dog that humps your leg,or a lion that kills defenseless wildebeest young,are they in touch with harmony,gods laws and peace?
'Nature' is just indifferent to us humans in some ways,and nature doesnt claim to be representing our best interests or be all/merciful or some such thing.
My post highlighting the plight of children and babies suffering is showing that 'god' is seemingly letting these things happen and not intervening in many cases,which doesnt exactly show him in a merciful and/or all-powerful light....
I dont think you need to go through tremendous life threatening adversity or death/suffering to learn about life,you can learn through mild adversity,intellect and the experiences of others.....And im yet to understand what the babies and youngsters learn from these trials in which they as the younger and weaker are the main sufferers... -
Enquirer, it depends on what you percieve God as. Presumably, you would think that God is some dude in the sky who acts and reacts as he sees fit. But clearly the view is more pantheistic than anything, because God does not manifest himself in the way you expect - as a humanlike entity.
Personally, I find nothing wrong with a pantheistic view, because if God is all-powerful, there should be no such problem. In other words, what we percieve as "God" might not be "God" but his effects & creation, in a manner similar to Abraham declaring the sun, then the moon must be God. We can't really talk about the unseen, just follow the wisdom therein.
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Peace enquirer, all,
Eq, I think your point is well-made and I agree with you in a sense. If we perceive God as an interfering or meddling creator (read miracles), then your point about justice and mercy is well-served. To save even one person from harm and not anyone else is unjust and unmerciful.
It is my understanding that the mercy of God and his justice is to be found, not delivered. In other words, it's always there for anyone to grab hold of at any point in their lives. Free-will is a big deal. It's not about simply making little choices regarding everyday occurrences such as whether or not to eat pork. Free-will is massive, governing the entirety of mankind, from the beginning, and until the end. We are at this point in life because of choices we've made as a species.
Can disease be wiped out?
Can famine be eliminated?
Can wealth be dispersed evenly?
Can education be equal across the board?Go back far enough and you'll find that we caused what we are, and we can fix it if we choose.
Peace,
Tay -
Easy Tay. I concur partly. However,the problems we have as a society now mainly come from our inexperience of how to run a society,we are still learning this,though have come an awful long way in some quarters. I dont believe man is wholly responsible as regards social inequality,and we might not have the means/power to achieve total social equality either. Many of the reasons the earth/humans suffer at present are beyond fixing by human intervention,just as 100 years ago we couldnt sew limbs back on.....Some of our problems are related to us appearing in an environment which was present before us,we didnt choose earth to live on with all its positive points and negative points for supporting life... Humans evolve,learn and progress,and i hope we will address these inequalities as soon and as best as we can,within our limitations and our human nature....
Finally,i suggest that 'god' like the term 'society' is in fact not a 'real' entity but an umbrella term for all the myriad forces/laws that exist,this is why its misleading and contradictory to say god knows all or is all-powerful....Yes all the forces combined are all-powerful when taken metaphorically,but in reality they are not one distinct force,nor do they act or even 'think' as one force....This i believe is the fatal flaw of monotheism,and the fatal reason for me not seeing any proof for this one god....
ps; when we say society say such and such,is there a real single distinct seperate entity called 'society' saying something or is it the interaction of a myriad though finite number of the members of this society making a statement? -
Peace enquirer,
the problems we have as a society now mainly come from our inexperience of how to run a society,we are still learning this,though have come an awful long way in some quarters.
I disagree. The saying, "history repeats itself" holds true because people keep making the same mistakes and continue to serve their egoes instead of each other.
Some of our problems are related to us appearing in an environment which was present before us,we didnt choose earth to live on with all its positive points and negative points for supporting life... Humans evolve,learn and progress,and i hope we will address these inequalities as soon and as best as we can,within our limitations and our human nature....
We are, essentially, animals. And animals have no problem living in harmony. If you believe in evolution, then you must also believe that the species we evolved from was already in harmony with nature. Our evolution has given us every advantage to maintain perfect balance and perfect equity with each other, beyond what our previous species was capable of. Yet we are worse.
There is more than enough food, money, and shelter to allow every human on this planet to live equally. What's there to learn besides avoiding selfishness? Can this be fixed with time?
i suggest that 'god' like the term 'society' is in fact not a 'real' entity but an umbrella term for all the myriad forces/laws that exist,this is why its misleading and contradictory to say god knows all or is all-powerful....
I respectfully disagree.
Yes all the forces combined are all-powerful when taken metaphorically,but in reality they are not one distinct force,nor do they act or even 'think' as one force....
Agree to disagree.
This i believe is the fatal flaw of monotheism,and the fatal reason for me not seeing any proof for this one god....
I'm sorry but I don't see how you established your understanding as a "fatal flaw". It seems to me you just describe it differently. That's not a cause in itself.
when we say society say such and such,is there a real single distinct seperate entity called 'society' saying something or is it the interaction of a myriad though finite number of the members of this society making a statement?
To me society = collective consiousness.
Peace,
Tay -
That's the thing, really. I mean where do we draw the line as to what's a natural innovation and what's not? Ravens have been known to carry walnuts up to power lines, drop them in front of cars, wait for the cars to drive over them and crush the shell, and then merrily fly down to reap the rewards.
Hello Tay,
In my personal understanding, I believe I can easily draw the line between natural and unnatural, in that, the difference being what occurs between man-made and what is "god-made". This should answer your first paragraph as well in your last post addressed to me where you mentioned "Control? I doubt. But manipulate?".
Peace!
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tay - where i live they seed for hailstorms... to make it so the hail doesn't do as much damage as it could... they put some sort of particles in the sky and it forces hail to gather into smaller balls or somethin... i dunno, look it up... haha
Dear AaRoN,
I',m not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that humans can cause hailstorms out of the sky by implanting some kind of seeds? What "seeds" and what "sort of particles" do humans put in the sky to create such hailstorms? Would you call it natural or unnatural?
Peace.
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mother nature is one hell of a bitch.
nature can be so bloody cruel at times.
in order to survive we have to kill life (be it an animal or a plant). If you were a chicken and I eat your kiddo how would you feel?
Why can't Allah just make the earth an ideal temperature for all humans? England is so friggen cold at times, and many people suffer from SAD. And as for hot places, too much sun can make you age faster.
EDIT there is also the locust problem, did allah really have to create them.
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Nature is cruel? That's like jumping into a fire and saying "Fire is cruel".
Jump off a cliff? "Gravity is cruel".
Cut yourself? "Sharp objects are cruel"
You are responsible for your own actions, and part of it is to make sure you do not set up camp where there are tsunamis. Tough luck for you if you foolishly stay anyway.
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Nature is cruel? That's like jumping into a fire and saying "Fire is cruel".
Jump off a cliff? "Gravity is cruel".
Cut yourself? "Sharp objects are cruel"
You are responsible for your own actions, and part of it is to make sure you do not set up camp where there are tsunamis. Tough luck for you if you foolishly stay anyway.
that's different!
as if i am gonna jump in a fire, or jump off a cliff, or cut my self.
As for all those people that were affected by the tsunami, was it foolish of them to live there? where are all these people suppose to go?
i live in England, alhamdulillah we don't have horrific weather here, it's just cold, too bad for people that suffer from s.a.d. though.
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Well, considering humanity has done the equivalent of just that by setting up camp near a place that shall get battered by natural disasters, and by destroying the balance of wealth such that some 80% of wealth is owned by 10% of people, it is not different. Try not being so irrational...
As for all those people, they were not foolish, they were born into it. Their ancestors were foolish, and they're paying the price )
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Peace Genteel, AaRoN, OPF, all,
In my personal understanding, I believe I can easily draw the line between natural and unnatural, in that, the difference being what occurs between man-made and what is "god-made".
Fair enough. I agree, but I'm also exploring the other side of the fence, ie, "man-made" is under the umbrella of "god-made".
where i live they seed for hailstorms... to make it so the hail doesn't do as much damage as it could... they put some sort of particles in the sky and it forces hail to gather into smaller balls or somethin... i dunno, look it up...
Can you pm me in the right direction?
As for all those people, they were not foolish, they were born into it. Their ancestors were foolish, and they're paying the price
That about sums up my position on the chain of effects of free-will and our collective mis-use of it. Thanks OPF.
Peace,
Tay -
Fair enough. I agree, but I'm also exploring the other side of the fence, ie, "man-made" is under the umbrella of "god-made".
Tay, I've been pondering about that myself but somehow couldn't extract the gist of it; perhaps only at the surface or partially. Would love to hear from you on this one if you can provide further explanation and a few scenarios/examples to back it up. It seems doable though, relatively speaking but does carry its negatives between the two propositions in conjunction.Peace!
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Salam,
everything is ultimately from Allah and controlled by Him. But we have the free-will to either follow Satan and corrupt the earth or look after it.
Remember Allah says corruption has spread throughout the land and sea because of what our hands have commited?
Think about verses where Allah tells us about how our relationship with earth is supposed to be like.
I have an interesting Power Point presentation about this issue that one of the FM brothers has emailed to me. It's interesting and about Globalisation, but I can't attach it here because the file is too large. If anyone wants it just send me an email.
Salam. peace
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Tay, I've been pondering about that myself but somehow couldn't extract the gist of it; perhaps only at the surface or partially. Would love to hear from you on this one if you can provide further explanation and a few scenarios/examples to back it up. It seems doable though, relatively speaking but does carry its negatives between the two propositions in conjunction.
Peace!
Not necessarily. Would you consider an idol to be "God-made"?
It's more like God is the contracter for materials, he's not responsible for what the builders do.