Natural disasters
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Peace enquirer, all,
Eq, I think your point is well-made and I agree with you in a sense. If we perceive God as an interfering or meddling creator (read miracles), then your point about justice and mercy is well-served. To save even one person from harm and not anyone else is unjust and unmerciful.
It is my understanding that the mercy of God and his justice is to be found, not delivered. In other words, it's always there for anyone to grab hold of at any point in their lives. Free-will is a big deal. It's not about simply making little choices regarding everyday occurrences such as whether or not to eat pork. Free-will is massive, governing the entirety of mankind, from the beginning, and until the end. We are at this point in life because of choices we've made as a species.
Can disease be wiped out?
Can famine be eliminated?
Can wealth be dispersed evenly?
Can education be equal across the board?Go back far enough and you'll find that we caused what we are, and we can fix it if we choose.
Peace,
Tay -
Easy Tay. I concur partly. However,the problems we have as a society now mainly come from our inexperience of how to run a society,we are still learning this,though have come an awful long way in some quarters. I dont believe man is wholly responsible as regards social inequality,and we might not have the means/power to achieve total social equality either. Many of the reasons the earth/humans suffer at present are beyond fixing by human intervention,just as 100 years ago we couldnt sew limbs back on.....Some of our problems are related to us appearing in an environment which was present before us,we didnt choose earth to live on with all its positive points and negative points for supporting life... Humans evolve,learn and progress,and i hope we will address these inequalities as soon and as best as we can,within our limitations and our human nature....
Finally,i suggest that 'god' like the term 'society' is in fact not a 'real' entity but an umbrella term for all the myriad forces/laws that exist,this is why its misleading and contradictory to say god knows all or is all-powerful....Yes all the forces combined are all-powerful when taken metaphorically,but in reality they are not one distinct force,nor do they act or even 'think' as one force....This i believe is the fatal flaw of monotheism,and the fatal reason for me not seeing any proof for this one god....
ps; when we say society say such and such,is there a real single distinct seperate entity called 'society' saying something or is it the interaction of a myriad though finite number of the members of this society making a statement? -
Peace enquirer,
the problems we have as a society now mainly come from our inexperience of how to run a society,we are still learning this,though have come an awful long way in some quarters.
I disagree. The saying, "history repeats itself" holds true because people keep making the same mistakes and continue to serve their egoes instead of each other.
Some of our problems are related to us appearing in an environment which was present before us,we didnt choose earth to live on with all its positive points and negative points for supporting life... Humans evolve,learn and progress,and i hope we will address these inequalities as soon and as best as we can,within our limitations and our human nature....
We are, essentially, animals. And animals have no problem living in harmony. If you believe in evolution, then you must also believe that the species we evolved from was already in harmony with nature. Our evolution has given us every advantage to maintain perfect balance and perfect equity with each other, beyond what our previous species was capable of. Yet we are worse.
There is more than enough food, money, and shelter to allow every human on this planet to live equally. What's there to learn besides avoiding selfishness? Can this be fixed with time?
i suggest that 'god' like the term 'society' is in fact not a 'real' entity but an umbrella term for all the myriad forces/laws that exist,this is why its misleading and contradictory to say god knows all or is all-powerful....
I respectfully disagree.
Yes all the forces combined are all-powerful when taken metaphorically,but in reality they are not one distinct force,nor do they act or even 'think' as one force....
Agree to disagree.
This i believe is the fatal flaw of monotheism,and the fatal reason for me not seeing any proof for this one god....
I'm sorry but I don't see how you established your understanding as a "fatal flaw". It seems to me you just describe it differently. That's not a cause in itself.
when we say society say such and such,is there a real single distinct seperate entity called 'society' saying something or is it the interaction of a myriad though finite number of the members of this society making a statement?
To me society = collective consiousness.
Peace,
Tay -
That's the thing, really. I mean where do we draw the line as to what's a natural innovation and what's not? Ravens have been known to carry walnuts up to power lines, drop them in front of cars, wait for the cars to drive over them and crush the shell, and then merrily fly down to reap the rewards.
Hello Tay,
In my personal understanding, I believe I can easily draw the line between natural and unnatural, in that, the difference being what occurs between man-made and what is "god-made". This should answer your first paragraph as well in your last post addressed to me where you mentioned "Control? I doubt. But manipulate?".
Peace!
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tay - where i live they seed for hailstorms... to make it so the hail doesn't do as much damage as it could... they put some sort of particles in the sky and it forces hail to gather into smaller balls or somethin... i dunno, look it up... haha
Dear AaRoN,
I',m not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that humans can cause hailstorms out of the sky by implanting some kind of seeds? What "seeds" and what "sort of particles" do humans put in the sky to create such hailstorms? Would you call it natural or unnatural?
Peace.
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mother nature is one hell of a bitch.
nature can be so bloody cruel at times.
in order to survive we have to kill life (be it an animal or a plant). If you were a chicken and I eat your kiddo how would you feel?
Why can't Allah just make the earth an ideal temperature for all humans? England is so friggen cold at times, and many people suffer from SAD. And as for hot places, too much sun can make you age faster.
EDIT there is also the locust problem, did allah really have to create them.
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Nature is cruel? That's like jumping into a fire and saying "Fire is cruel".
Jump off a cliff? "Gravity is cruel".
Cut yourself? "Sharp objects are cruel"
You are responsible for your own actions, and part of it is to make sure you do not set up camp where there are tsunamis. Tough luck for you if you foolishly stay anyway.
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Nature is cruel? That's like jumping into a fire and saying "Fire is cruel".
Jump off a cliff? "Gravity is cruel".
Cut yourself? "Sharp objects are cruel"
You are responsible for your own actions, and part of it is to make sure you do not set up camp where there are tsunamis. Tough luck for you if you foolishly stay anyway.
that's different!
as if i am gonna jump in a fire, or jump off a cliff, or cut my self.
As for all those people that were affected by the tsunami, was it foolish of them to live there? where are all these people suppose to go?
i live in England, alhamdulillah we don't have horrific weather here, it's just cold, too bad for people that suffer from s.a.d. though.
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Well, considering humanity has done the equivalent of just that by setting up camp near a place that shall get battered by natural disasters, and by destroying the balance of wealth such that some 80% of wealth is owned by 10% of people, it is not different. Try not being so irrational...
As for all those people, they were not foolish, they were born into it. Their ancestors were foolish, and they're paying the price )
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Peace Genteel, AaRoN, OPF, all,
In my personal understanding, I believe I can easily draw the line between natural and unnatural, in that, the difference being what occurs between man-made and what is "god-made".
Fair enough. I agree, but I'm also exploring the other side of the fence, ie, "man-made" is under the umbrella of "god-made".
where i live they seed for hailstorms... to make it so the hail doesn't do as much damage as it could... they put some sort of particles in the sky and it forces hail to gather into smaller balls or somethin... i dunno, look it up...
Can you pm me in the right direction?
As for all those people, they were not foolish, they were born into it. Their ancestors were foolish, and they're paying the price
That about sums up my position on the chain of effects of free-will and our collective mis-use of it. Thanks OPF.
Peace,
Tay -
Fair enough. I agree, but I'm also exploring the other side of the fence, ie, "man-made" is under the umbrella of "god-made".
Tay, I've been pondering about that myself but somehow couldn't extract the gist of it; perhaps only at the surface or partially. Would love to hear from you on this one if you can provide further explanation and a few scenarios/examples to back it up. It seems doable though, relatively speaking but does carry its negatives between the two propositions in conjunction.Peace!
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Salam,
everything is ultimately from Allah and controlled by Him. But we have the free-will to either follow Satan and corrupt the earth or look after it.
Remember Allah says corruption has spread throughout the land and sea because of what our hands have commited?
Think about verses where Allah tells us about how our relationship with earth is supposed to be like.
I have an interesting Power Point presentation about this issue that one of the FM brothers has emailed to me. It's interesting and about Globalisation, but I can't attach it here because the file is too large. If anyone wants it just send me an email.
Salam. peace
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Tay, I've been pondering about that myself but somehow couldn't extract the gist of it; perhaps only at the surface or partially. Would love to hear from you on this one if you can provide further explanation and a few scenarios/examples to back it up. It seems doable though, relatively speaking but does carry its negatives between the two propositions in conjunction.
Peace!
Not necessarily. Would you consider an idol to be "God-made"?
It's more like God is the contracter for materials, he's not responsible for what the builders do.
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peace all,
This is a very common question. When I get asked it I usually say the following...
I begin by listing various natural disasters earthquake, tsunami, hurricane, flood etc. I then choose one, e.g. hurricane and investigate the premise of the question.
Let's say hurricanes or any wind related natural disaster never occurred that would mean wind could not exist. Why? Because there is only two options
- IF wind exists and damage involving wind cannot occur (like the questioner suggests) then that means wind could not go over a certain force, because if it did it could and would damage something. Is this logical? In reality, wind would have to have zero force because even the slightest wind could cause damage.
- IF wind exists and damage involving wind could occur but not affecting humans then it would be illogical, it would not make sense that these events happened only in unpopulated areas.
Option 1 could only occur if nature's laws were re-written. Option 2 could only occur if we were willing to accept this HUGE illogical anomaly.
I then ask the questioner to explain to me what scenario they would like to see in order to have no natural disasters. No-one I have discussed this with has ever came up with any viable solution. Some say God is smart enough to create a world in which nothing like this happens, so it could be done... I again ask them if they can envisage such a system, again, no-one I have discussed this with has answered, and then I ask if such a system would make sense. Again, I have not had anyone come up with an answer.
I then hit them with so according to you in order for God to exist He must eliminate natural disasters but to do so requires a super-intelligent restructure that you cant even picture... so it is only possible by a super-intelligent being... such as God?
Hope the above makes sense.
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There is somewhat of a flaw in that reasoning. Just because someone you meet cannot envisage this thing, does not mean that it cannot exist. Technically, that answer only puts the question in limbo - given the question, pretty permanently.
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There is only a flaw in the reasoning if I said that that answers/refutes the question. Did I say that?
Implicit. Someone who wants to know isn't seriously going to take that for an answer...
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Implicit for some and not for others I'm sure.
Conjecture. Seems to have worked pretty well for me in the past thus your above statement is empirically incorrect.
True. But it's still an open-ended answer. If you get what I mean.
