An Invitation from a Muslim Cleric to You
-
Salaam Raj-ah
I did not criticise al-Banna. And I know Mansour's fiery language. But frankly speaking, neither of them can be the port-parole of qur'aan aloner. Neither of them criticized , at least, some rituals of hajj. Both accept traditional salaat, this is to say the least. How can they speak on behalf of qur'aan aloners? You asked on another thread what we would answer if asked how we pray. This seems to be the trap set by sunnis to make qur'aan aloner acknowledge part of the transmitted practices; then accept another and another untill we find ourselves kissing the black stone.
We on this forum should be the ones to debate. We should not be in need of bringing some more back-ups. If we feel we are not yet ready, we should just say that.
-
Boost
ok Bro RasulHamsa, actually all of us in that yahoo conference were muslim. But some of us were people that frequent this site. Hence, the free-minder versus non free-minds distinction.
I think you're making a non-issue out of nothing and I don't appreciate it.
Yes! that is what is done by some and yet they pretend to present themselves as Scholars.
Well I don't think so any of here will be able to Debate with any Real life Scholar if he realy is? They are playing on very weak wicket sorry to say! but this doesnot mean at all that Imam is right in every thing he says.
Samia I think you addressed me by mistake in your above post.
-
Salaam Raj-ah
I did not criticise al-Banna. And I know Mansour's fiery language. But frankly speaking, neither of them can be the port-parole of qur'aan aloner. Neither of them criticized , at least, some rituals of hajj. Both accept traditional salaat, this is to say the least. How can they speak on behalf of qur'aan aloners? You asked on another thread what we would answer if asked how we pray. This seems to be the trap set by sunnis to make qur'aan aloner acknowledge part of the transmitted practices; then accept another and another untill we find ourselves kissing the black stone.
We on this forum should be the ones to debate. We should not be in need of bringing some more back-ups. If we feel we are not yet ready, we should just say that.
But how can you be ready? The veses in the Quran are not going to increase, so if you don't have verses that talks about the details of rituals, then you are not going to get it. Its only going to lead to isolationism, unless Q.A want to remain isolated from the rest of the Muslims, then where is the Ummah the Quran is talking about?
-
Peace Be Upon You All
I was chatting with some free-minders yesterday on yahoo when I decided to bring in a friend who knows nothing about the quran alone movement. And so it began )
Things quickly began to heat up as he brought in his own friends to back up Bukhari. Eventually he invited us to a room on paltalk where a sheikh was answering questions. the other fm brothers and sisters that were on yahoo at the time didn't want to participate but I went.
He speaks in English. He is very rational, calm cool and collected. He has patience and uses no emotional bait to make his point. I was very respectful and tried to soak in the points he was making.
In the end, he invited any quran aloner to meet him in a private room for a serious discussion. He will set up dates when he is free. So that he is not bombarded by many people throwing a million points at the same time, he asks that only 2 people debate with him per session. Others are welcome to sit back and watch.
Of course, no attacks, no emotional outbursts of how the sunnis are blind, stupid or anything else disrespectful. Let's show him true quranic etiquette as he's shown me the same. He never once attacked or insulted me nor even treated me neutrally. He called me his dear sister and was always calm no matter how much I may have tested his patience with a difference of opinion.
I think this is a great opportunity to get our message out there and have a fruitful discussion with someone of authority in the sunni world. It would show a great development in this movement for us to begin to engage with sunni scholars, especially when he extended his hand first. I would love to see all of you interested.
If anyone is interested please post a reply. I will post his available time when my friend tells me. A microphone is preferred but not required. He will be speaking on mic however.
Please post here any requests or additional rules of debate and I'll pass it along so that we're all on the same page before the first meeting.
[/quoteSalam.
Dear sister, first tell them this
THE WORD ?AL-HEKMAH? (WISDOM)
IN THE QURAN
By A. MohammedDue to the fact that the Quran did not contain any mention of the words ?Sunna?t Muhammad?, the ardent Sunni?s found it necessary to manipulate the meaning of some Quranic words so as to create a Quranic reference to their cherished ?hadith? and ?Sunna?. The word on which they base their claim is that of (Al-Hekmah) as found in a number of verses as
"Remember God?s blessings upon you, and what He sent down to you of the ?Al-Ketab? and ?Al-Hekmah? to enlighten you with it." 2231
Literally speaking, the meaning of ?Al-Ketab? is the book (the Quran), and ?Al-Hekmah? is wisdom. Nevertheless they interpret ?Al-Hekmah? here to mean the Sunna of Muhammad. However, with a close inspection of the Quranic verses, it can be shown that this interpretation is a total corruption. This is due to the following reasons
ONE
The word ?bihee? (with it) that appear at the end of the verse, is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ?Al-Hekmah? and ?Al-Ketab? must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!
If the words ?Al-Hekmah? and ?Al-Ketab? really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ?bihima? (with them), which is the plural mode of ?bihee?.
TWO
The word ?Al-Hekmah? is used throughout the Quran as an adjective of the ?Al-Ketab? (the Quran). This is made evident in the following verses
"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 361-2
"This is what We recite to you of the ?Ayat? and the ?Zekr Al-Hakim" 358
"A.L.R., these are the signs of the ?Ketab Al-Hakim" 101 also 312
THREE
The same word ?Al-Hekmah? is used in the Quran in connection with prophets and messengers who lived before the time of Muhammad. Obviously before Muhammad lived his Sunna did not exist. Thus to say that ?Al-Hekmah? means Sunna?t Muhammad is incorrect. Consider the following verses
a- The following are God?s words to Jesus
"And I taught you the ?Ketab? (Scripture) and ?Al-Hekmah?(wisdom)." 5110
Clearly the word ?Al-Hekmah? here does not mean the Sunna of Muhammad.
b- The following were the words of Abraham as he implored his Lord
"Our Lord, and send for them a messenger from among them to recite to them your ?Ayat? and teach them the ?Ketab? (Scripture) and ?Al-Hekmah? (wisdom)." 2129
Again the word ?Al-Hekmah? here could not mean anything but wisdom. Abraham had no knowledge of the ?Sunna? of Muhammad.
FOUR
A further evidence that the word ?Al-Hekmah? as used in the Quran means wisdom and not Sunna is found in the following verse
"He bestows ?Al-Hekmah? upon whoever He pleases, and whoever attains ?Al-Hekmah? has indeed attained a great blessing." 2269
The words "whoever He pleases" in this verse indicate that God bestows ?Al-Hekmah? upon any of the believers and not just His messengers. If we assume that ?Al-Hekmah? means the Sunna we would have to believe that any ordinary believer may also have his own personal Sunna that has to be followed by other believers! This of course is not the case. The verse would instead make full sense if we think of ?Al-Hekmah? in its proper meaning as wisdom.
FIVE
In Sura 17, we are given a clear demonstration of the word ?Al-Hekmah? as being the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and the wisdom to choose what is right. If we read the verses from 22 to 39, we find God commanding us not to worship except Him, to honor our parents, to give due alms to our relatives, the needy, the poor, and the traveling alien but without being extravagant or stingy, not to kill our children for fear of poverty, not to commit adultery, nor to abuse the orphan?s money, to trade equitably and fairly, to verify everything before following it blindly and not to act vainly. After such valuable advice God informs us that these virtues are indeed what wisdom is all about.
In that sense ?Al-Hekmah? is not a book of ?hadith? (sayings) of one single person but instead a blessing that God may bestow on any of His servants.
SIX
Perhaps the simplest and most convincing reason for discarding the corrupted meaning of ?Al-Hekmah? so as to mean the Sunna, is the fact that God is neither vague nor fond of providing us with puzzles. God asserts that the Quran is straightforward, it contains no crookedness
"An Arabic Quran, without any crookedness, that they may take heed." 3928
Surely, had God willed that we should follow the teachings of the Quran plus the Sunna He would have mentioned the words ?Sunna?t Muhammad? explicitly in the Quran. Needless to say, the only Sunna that is mentioned in the Quran is the Sunna of Allah.
"This is the Sunna of God for those of the past, and you will find no alternative for the Sunna of God." 3362
The Sunna of Allah is to be found in the Quran and previous Scripture.
Moreover if God had revealed to Muhammad an additional Sunna other than the Quran, as the Sunni?s would claim then we would expect God to say ?We have revealed to you the Ketab and the Sunna? or words to that effect. Instead the only Revelation endorsed in the Quran is the Quran itself
"And We have revealed to you the Ketab (the Quran) truthfully." 548
Indeed God takes an oath from His prophet of what was revealed to him. The oath contains nothing but the Quran
"Say, ?What is the greatest testimony?? Say, ?God is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.? Say, ?I do not testify as you do; but surely He is one God, and I disown your idolatry." 619
Finally God commands the prophet to rule and arbitrate between the people with Quran and nothing but the Quran
"We have sent down to you this Ketab, truthfully, in order to arbitrate between the people." 4105
SEVEN
Finally, the word ?Al-Hikmah? in any Arabic dictionary means WISDOM. To leave the literal and direct meaning and accept a manipulated meaning is to reject the truth of the Quran.
Then tell them this
THE WORD 'AL-HEKMAH' (WISDOM) IN
THE QURAN
By A. Ibrahim
Many sunni Muslims refer to the word (Al-Hekmah)- wisdom- as mentioned in 2129,2151, 2231, and 3334, when they talk about the hadiths and sunna of the Prophet Muhammed. They claim the word Al-Hekmah in these verses refer to the Hadiths and Sunna of the prophet Muhammed. That is FALSE.
Here is why they are WRONG Let us study the word Al-Hekmah in the Quran.
The word (Hekmah) ( wisdom in English,) has been used in 19 verses in the Quran for a total of 20 times (mentioned twice in 2269) .
(1) In 381, God is telling us that all the Prophets are given the book and Hekmah (Wisdom). All these Prophets did not give the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed.
(2) In 348 God is using the same term He used for Muhammed, telling us that he gave Jesus, the book and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(3) In 2251, God is telling us that he gave the Hekmah (Wisdom) to David, it is not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(4) In 454, God is telling us He gave Abraham's family the scripture and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(5) In 5110, again God is reminding us that he gave Jesus the book and the Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(6) In 16125, God calls on the believers to use wisdom in inviting people to the path of God. Remember that God told us already that we should remind with the QURAN those who revernce His warnings. It is the Quran full of hekmah (wisdom)
(7) In 3112, God is telling us that He gave Luqman the Hekmah (wisdom), this was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
( In 4363 Jesus is telling his people that he brought them the Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.
(9) The Quran is described as the book of hekmah (wisdom) by God Almighty. See 358, 101, 312, 363, 434, ...
(10) In 1739 God Almighty, the author of the Quran Himself explains what the word hekmah (wisdom) means, so no one can claim any thing different.
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated. " 1736-39
Here, God is telling us that the wisdom is what is included in the Quran. It is the wisdom that comes from Him not from other men.
Some people question the wisdom of God why did He choose to mention the book and the Hekmah if both are the same. First questioning the wisdom of God is equal to disbelief. Second, if you are to understand the Quran you would know what God means by the word Hekma, it is well explained in 1739. It is a common practice in the Arabic language to emphasize part of the whole by
mentioning that part after the whole.For example if you give some one a book that you want him to read and want to get his attention to chapter 7 for example, you would say read this book and chapter 7. This does not mean Chapter 7 is different than the book but you want to emphasize that particular
part. You want him to read the book and pay special attention to chapter 7.In 2238, God is telling the believers, "You shall observe the Contact Prayers, and the middle prayer and devote yourself totally to God." In this verse God wants to emphasize the middle prayer. The middle prayer is not something different from the rest of the prayers. And so is the word hekmah (Wisdom) is a part of, and not a separate part, of the Quran. God is emphasizing the Hekmah (wisdom) included in his books. That is what 1739 is explaining.
If you look at R. Khalifa's translation of 2238, you will find that he put this explanation in his translation. My translation of the Arabic above is almost the exact like the Arabic text.
Khalifa's translation is "You shall consistently observe the Contact prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to God."
For an English speaking person who is reading my translation above, he may think that the middle prayer is different than the rest of the prayers. Khalifa's translation above makes it easy to reach the meaning put in the Arabic text without over exerting the possibilities.
In brief the word Hekmah, in 2129 and others do NOT refer to the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed, it is the wisdom included in the Quran. When God ordered the Prophet's wives to mention what is recited in their homes of the book and wisdom (3334), He means to emphasize the need to mentions the wisdom , that is explained in 1739. It means to mention the Quran and especially the wisdom coming in the Quran.
Then finally, recite to them this
A Dozen reasons why believers should follow
the Quran and nothing but the QuranBY A. Muhammad
1- The Quran commands all Muslims to follow the Quran Alone, this command is found in numerous verses, the following are examples
"These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 456
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114
2- The Quran confirms that the only Sunna is the Sunna of God. No where in the Quran is there any mention of Sunna't Muhammad!!!!
"You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (3362....3543.....4823)
3- The Quran confirms that the only duty of Muhammad (or of any messenger) is to deliver God's message, and not to teach any other teachings.
"The only duty of the messenger is to deliver God's message" 599 (also in 592.... 1635.......1682.....2454.......2918.....4248.......6412)
4- God commands the believers to obey the prophet, but God also makes sure that the obedience to the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered and nothing else. Obeying the prophet does not mean that he had a Sunna to be obeyed.
The confirmation that the obedience of the prophet is linked to obeying the message he delivered (the Quran) is confirmed in the following verse
"Obey God and obey the messenger. If you shall turn away then the sole of the messenger is to deliver the message (the Quran)" 6412
Note how the obedience to the prophet and the deliverance of the Quran are linked in the same verse.
5- You will never read any where in the Quran words like "Obey God and obey Muhammad" or obey Jesus, or Moses..........always the word messenger........that is to emphasise that what is to be obeyed is the message of God and not the personal words of any messenger.
6- The Quran also confirms that Muhammad was commanded not to teach any other teachings, otherwise he would incur severe punishment from God
"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 6943-47
7- Muhammad was made to swear that the only revelation he received from God was the Quran. The following verse confirms that all what is known as (Hadith Qodsy) are lies that the prophet is innocent of
"Say (O Muhammad) what is of the greatest testimony? Say God is the witness between me and you, and this Quran has been inspired to me, that I may warn you and whomever it reaches" 619
If the hadith Al-Qodsy was truly God speaking to Muhammad as they falsely claim would'nt the verse carry a testimony to that ???
Nowhere in the Quran is there any indication that Muhammad received from God anything other than the Quran.
8- Prophet Muhammad himself commanded his people not to write his hadith, this is documented in Muslim and other books
"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Muslim)
9- For the first 150 years to 200 years after the death of the prophet the writing of his hadith was forbidden, in accordance with his commands. The first one to document a comprehensive collection of hadith was Al-Bukhari (Note that Al-Bukhari was born in the year 198 After Hijrah..........does that make you think????)
Even if we were to follow the hadith, how accurate can a collection of sayings documented two centuries after the death of the prophet be?????
10- God commands the prophet in the Quran to say that he is infallible in the revelation he delivers, but that he may commit errors in his personal words and hadith
"SayIf I err , I err because of my shortcomings, and if I am rightly guided it is due to the revelation I receive from my Lord" 3450
In spite of that confirmation and also 6 incidents in the Quran when the prophet is reprimanded by God, for errors he committed, the worshippers of Muhammad claim that he was infallible!!!! These 6 incidents are found in (867-68......943.......9113-114........ 3337..........661.........801-11 )
11- The Quran confirms that for every prophet there will be enemies of the devils of humans and jinns who will fabricate fancy sayings and attribute them to the prophet to deceive the people
"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and jinn devils, to inspire in each other fancy sayings, in order to deceive" 6112
God also asserts that only the disbelievers will listen to such fabrications (see 6113)
12- Finally, we are told that the Quran is totally sufficient for the genuine believer for the following reasons
A- The Quran is not in need of an annex since it is complete
"The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice" 6115
B- The Quran is not in need of an explanatory supplement since it is clear and is not ambiguous
"A.L.R. These are the signs of the clear book" 121
"We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." 4458
C- The Quran is not in need of a correction manual since it is perfect and harbours no contradictions
"A.L.R. This is a book whose verses have been perfected" 111
D- The Quran is not in need of a step by step guide since it is fully detailed
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114
For all these reasons, all Muslims should
follow the Quran, the whole Quran and
nothing but the Quran.
PRAISE GODPeace.
-
He wrote an article once in the website metransparent.com called "Abu Huraira and the case of the dog", in it he accuses Abu Huraira of fabricating hadiths about dogs being negative because he loved cats. I am sorry but if you want to influence Muslim intellectuals you have to stop relying propaganda. So whats he saying that Abu Huraira is going to lie about hadiths because he loved cats and hated dogs! I may stomach that but most Muslims would find that too ridiculing of a companion even if that companion is controversial.
Even a ten year-old would smell that there is something fishy if he is told that a person says that dogs are very bad while at the same time he is also known as the father of cats due to his deep love for the animals.
-
Ahmad suhbi Mansour is far to much pro-occident (and pro-bush) in my view.
See http//www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_news.php?main_id=22
It is too much political.I think our stance should be pro-quran, rather than anti-sunni.
I prefer the style of Gamal al Banna. But there is a lack of material from him online.
I see no problem in accepting anything that do not contradict the Quran, including hadith, provided they are not deemed sacred.
I have some experience in debating with sunnis (and shias). I know the arguments that work with them.
Nevertheless, we have to make more research on the way the Quran was transmitted
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13918.15About salat, I use to say that salat is mainly about connecting with God, and reminding our commitment with Him. I say there is no point in rejecting the physical way to do it, provided we do not made it sacred, and focus on the spiritual side.
Zakat is purification, and giving money to the poor is a good way to purify ourselves.
About hajj, kaaba, and so on, my understanding is very unclear. I think we need to do more research on this too.
And lastly, I think our greater weakness lies in the lack of concern for grammar, like in Aidid Safar works. This kind of stuff discredit us.
Peace
-
Even a ten year-old would smell that there is something fishy if he is told that a person says that dogs are very bad while at the same time he is also known as the father of cats due to his deep love for the animals.
True, but it is one thing to be suspicious but Mansour's style is very critical and talks as if he knows the answers. Its Arab mentality, if you read some stuff from Schacht and Goldziher, they would always remind you that they do not have definite proof and that there needs to be more study and research in it. Arabs meanwhile speak as if they have the facts and then would start accusing based on these presumed facts. Even Gamal Banna says that hadiths have been "proven" to be false and fabricated, yet orientals never claim that. This is the Arab lack of objectivity. Mansour also accuses other Muslims of deviancy as some here do, so whats the difference with Sunni Islam. They also accuse others of deviancy and kufr even if they are not able to provide evidence that these hadiths are authentic.
We don't want to replace on extremism with another.
-
PEace Be Upon You All
I'm so happy to see more of you interested in coming and thank you to the brothers who will debate too! sun Where are the sisters who'll debate?? (nudge nudge Sis Samia) ;D
Here is an update. I spoke to the sheikh for a second time, and he again extends his invitation to any and all who want to debate or discuss anything related to our movement. He at first wished to have only one or two debate him at once but has now opened it to as many who want to participate. I think the second time he met me he realized he might have been mistaken in his assumption that i'm still sunni but just a lil confused P I asked him why he prays to Mohamed and talks to him when he does salat. He became silent and then announced his decision to make it a full debate with anyone and everyone joining in.
I still think we should have just a few people who'll speak or else it might become too hard to follow and may overwhelm just one sunni sheikh.He also decided to do it in a public paltalk room because many people who were there when i came in were interested in hearing the debate. So we'll have a full house. He just needs to check with the owners of the room to make sure that everyone is ready for such a debate and all keep to the topic.
He's currently working on a doctorate so he's quite busy these next coming days but will be free soon and will get back to me for the date and time.
I hope to see all of you there and please remember to show your best faces. The other day when I went in there again, most of the sunnis in the room NEVER heard of any quran alone movement and I quickly got many private messages of people who were intrigued by my good islamic manners and wanted to ask me more. If I had gone in there disrespectfully and attacking and insulting all that they believe in I can guarantee those same people would have treated me like crap and probably labelled me a kafra without hearing one word. Keep that in mind that you will be their first taste. Let's show them tolerance, intellect, kindness and patience. Also know that we might not change anyone's beliefs and we might even be insulted by others who don't care how nice you are to them. Show patience and maturity.
3133 You should eagerly race towards forgiveness from your Lord and a Paradise whose width encompasses the heavens and the earth; it awaits the righteous,
3134 who give to charity during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. GOD loves the charitable.4235 Those who argue against our proofs will find out that they have no basis.
4236 Whatever you are given is no more than temporary material of this life. What GOD possesses is far better and everlasting, for those who believe and trust in their Lord.
4237 They avoid gross sins and vice, and when angered they forgive.
4238 They respond to their Lord by Salat. Their affairs are decided after due consultation among themselves, and from our provisions to them they give (to charity). -
I'm so happy to see more of you interested in coming and thank you to the brothers who will debate too! sun Where are the sisters who'll debate?? (nudge nudge Sis Samia) ;D
I know, I know!
I could not commit myself as I will be abroad for a job sometime in the next week/ten days. But I am not ruling out the possibility of my participation. I have to see when it will take place and decide upon that. -
I hope to see all of you there and please remember to show your best faces. The other day when I went in there again, most of the sunnis in the room NEVER heard of any quran alone movement and I quickly got many private messages of people who were intrigued by my good islamic manners and wanted to ask me more. If I had gone in there disrespectfully and attacking and insulting all that they believe in I can guarantee those same people would have treated me like crap and probably labelled me a kafra without hearing one word. Keep that in mind that you will be their first taste. Let's show them tolerance, intellect, kindness and patience. Also know that we might not change anyone's beliefs and we might even be insulted by others who don't care how nice you are to them. Show patience and maturity.
That is what I have often said that beautiful preaching is the key. It may be true that no matter how good your manner is many people will never listen you. However, on the other hand the will also a few people who will and wholeheartedly feel attracted to your preaching.
Peace,
-
True, but it is one thing to be suspicious but Mansour's style is very critical and talks as if he knows the answers. Its Arab mentality, if you read some stuff from Schacht and Goldziher, they would always remind you that they do not have definite proof and that there needs to be more study and research in it. Arabs meanwhile speak as if they have the facts and then would start accusing based on these presumed facts. Even Gamal Banna says that hadiths have been "proven" to be false and fabricated, yet orientals never claim that. This is the Arab lack of objectivity. Mansour also accuses other Muslims of deviancy as some here do, so whats the difference with Sunni Islam. They also accuse others of deviancy and kufr even if they are not able to provide evidence that these hadiths are authentic.
We don't want to replace on extremism with another.Cannot agree with u more bro.. on "Arab Mentalilty", even the Quran said very much the same thing..
(Read my footer) -
And i cannot disagree more. how racist and bigoted. i would suggest you both don't make such blanketed statements about people based on their origins. why didn't you finish up to verse 99 bro jafar?
-
agree with BOOST. that verse is just wrong.
Clear cut enemy of Allah!!
-
LOL ;D