and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution...
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Oh, it means that they need to have free choice between whether they want 100 lashes or not. The Quran is full of tautology.
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See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11635
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lately we thrashed the word mohsinnat and HSN in detail , there is no doubt that it is Chastity. and as "Bighaa" is used in contrast with " hsn " so in the context of the relevent verse , it definitely is prostitution, And prostitution only , it does not convey a broader meaning as described by Arnold yasin and Ayman in a previous thread.
Ahmad's arguments in the recommended thread were on correct line,
please go through the thread "Mohsinnats , a new understanding " in the same section.
However Fatayat is any young girl , she could be your MMA, (slave girl, which your right hand posses) servant, daughter, sister , niece etc, Any young girl who could be under an individual's(man or a woman) influence to be compelled into committing such an act.
In the subject verse though, initially the subject of address are MMA (slaves) however in the later part the use of the word Fatayat was not bounded/followed by MMa ( unlike the verse 4-25). as such opening up its application in general for all categories of young women.
siki
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what is tautology?
siki
A self-fullfilling statement. Like "This is a sentence."
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Poor men have been advised to marry the female slave servants of rich people, and rich people having slaves/servants are directed/advised as under
Wa ankihul aya_ma_ minkum was sa_lihina min iba_dikum wa ima_ikum
And arrange marriage of those unmarried women and men of society with your virtuous male and female slave servants
iy yaku_nu_ fuqara_ a yugnihimul la_hu min fadlih wal la_hu wa_siun alim
if they are in poverty (so what) Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.{2432}
?Ankihu? Imperative, plural, present masculine.Wal yastafifil lazina la_ yajidu_na nika_han hat ta_ yugniyahumul la_hu min fadlih
And those who find not the wherewithal for marriage should keep themselves restrained/chaste until Allah gives them means out of His grace.
wal lazina yabtagu_nal kita_ba mim ma_ malakat aima_nukum faka_tibu_hum in alimtum fihim khairaw
And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them;
wa a_tu_hum min ma_lil la_hil lazi a_ta_kum
And give them out of the wealth Allah has given to you.(to enable them start independent work)
wa la_ tukrihu_ fataya_tikum alal biga_i in ARADDNA tahas suna l litabtagu_ aradal haya_tid dun ya_
And for making a gain in the worldly life do not force your female servants to prostitution, since they had desired/opted protection/fort/jail.
In traditional translations this prohibition is made conditional ?when they desire to chaste?. If a woman had opted to earn by selling herself (prostitution) she would seldom become a slave and house servant. By remaining a slave/servant she had opted to be in protection of Ahl of a house.
ARADDNA-Past tense-Plural-Feminine ?those women had desired/decided?
Tahas sunan ?Masdar? Remain protected, get into a fort, remain in jail, remain chaste
Yousaf a.s. had also opted to go to jail (Tahas sunan) to avoid meeting the sex desire of wife of Aziz-e-Misr {Refer1233}But ground reality is that certain do force unprotected women to become prostitute. But Allah is all-merciful. If any women are forced to indulge in sex against their will, Allah will forgive them. Punishment is only for willful acts.
wa may yukrih huna fa in nal la_ha mim badi ikra_hin na gafu_rur rahim
And anyone compels his female servants, therefore Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them) after their disliking/hatred for what they have been forced to do.Disrespect of women will one day prove very costly. We ordinarily take sex lightly rather delight. The purpose of entire creation is to judge who amongst us acts ?Ahsano Amala?. And the continuity of human being rests with the ?Rahm? of women, therefore the continuity of purpose of creation. She is the Ameen. Allah likes the Ameen most. Before creation, Allah with his own will and desire made Rah mat obligatory for himself. He is Al Raheem. And praise is for Allah who named in Arabic a place in the body of women as ?Rahm?, which is from the same root. Relations come from ?Rahm? and Deen Allah. And we ask favours in the name of Allah and Arham. Sex in Islam is a sanctified affair.
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Peace brother Hamsa,
What is the right understanding of the following verse please God forbid...if the slave girl has no problem then?
2433 And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.see also.... According to Bukharihttp//www.smileyhut.com/characters/hassidic.gif
Chapter 4 COMPEL NOT YOUR SLAVE-GIRLS TO PROSTITUTION
Book 043, Number 7180
Jabir reported that 'Abdullah b. Ubayy b. Salul used to say to his slave-girl Go and fetch something for us by committing prostitution. rotfl It was in this connection that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this verse" And compel not your slave-girls to prostitution when they desire to keep chaste in order to seek the frail goods of this world's life, and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful" (xxiv. 33).
Book 043, Number 7181
Jabir reported that 'Abdullah b. Ubayy b. Salul had two slave-girls; one was called Musaikahttp//www.smileyhut.com/characters/blonde.gif and the other one was called Umaimahttp//www.smileyhut.com/characters/blonde2.gif and he compelled them to prostitution > (for which'Abdullah b. Ubayy b. Salul compelled them). They made a complaint about this to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and it was upon this that this verse was revealed" And compel not your slave-girls to prostitute" up to the words" Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."The Arabic word "baghaa" doesn't mean "prostitution". You can see the verb form of the noun used here
038.022
YUSUFALI When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said "Fear not we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
PICKTHAL How they burst in upon David, and he was afraid of them. They said Be not afraid! (We are) two litigants, one of whom hath wronged the other, therefor judge aright between us; be not unjust; and show us the fair way.
SHAKIR When they entered in upon Dawood and he was frightened at them, they said Fear not; two litigants, of whom one has acted wrongfully towards the other, therefore decide between us with justice, and do not act unjustly, and guide us to the right way.
KHALIFA When they entered his room, he was startled. They said, "Have no fear. We are feuding with one another, and we are seeking your fair judgment. Do not wrong us, and guide us in the right path.If the noun "baghaa" means "prostitution" then how come no one translates its verb form "Bagha" as "prostituted"? Did the two opponents that came to David to judge between them "prostituted" one another??!!! Of course not!
I think that people who translate it as "prostitution" have other motives for doing so. Those motives have more to do with being programmed with Hadith-based preconceptions and perhaps even some inner issues they have with females.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman,
Thank you for your reply, I agree that is certainly the very very wrong translation. I cannot understand how these people can mock verses of quran. Fornication is already strictly prohibited, how can God just say do not compell them for prostitution? That is just disgusting.
That verse has definitely different meaning, I just looked at FM translation, I don't know how it make sense....I couldn't understand it. I have seen many cases where parents do not let their daughters get married because their daughters work and run their expenses... but according to following translation it says do not compell your daughters into marriage to gain goods of this life....??? Would you also please give the best possible translation.
- And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are committed to you by oath seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your daughters into marriage when they have desired independence, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Peace and Thanks.
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I do not agree with Ayman's view. please look at the following verses about Mariam,
19-20 She said When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? (baghia)
19-28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot (baghia)
Context is very important in picking up the correct meaning of a word in a certain sentence, use of BGH when the subject is woman's sexuality, will be fornication/ lewdness/ unchastity etc, and in 24-33 when somebody/Guardian forces a young girl to commit such an act, would most likely press her to obtain some material benifit for himself. And we have word for it "Prostitution"
peace
siki
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I do not agree with Ayman's view. please look at the following verses about Mariam,
19-20 She said When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? (baghia)
19-28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot (baghia)
Context is very important in picking up the correct meaning of a word in a certain sentence, use of BGH when the subject is woman's sexuality, will be fornication/ lewdness/ unchastity etc, and in 24-33 when somebody/Guardian forces a young girl to commit such an act, would most likely press her to obtain some material benifit for himself. And we have word for it "Prostitution"
peace
siki
Peace siki,
IMHO, When Mary said walam yamsasnee basharun it clearly means she is neither married nor touched otherwise(unchaste), I don't think the next part of verse is just repetition of what is already said, when she said walam aku baghiyyan I don't think baghiyyan here simply means unchaste...
19-28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot (baghia)... I think she certainly did something against the will of the priests/or law thats why they referred to both her parents father and mother abooki imraa saw-in wama kanat ommuki baghiyyan
Salaams and thanks for your replies...
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peace hamsa
I appreciate your keen sense of analysis . Your first point is valid to a certain extent. To further take on a healthy discussion , my comments are!
when she was pregnant with the boy, she probably meant to convey "As every body knows she is not married (Declared/known relation ship which could make her pregnant) , and further declares That " Nor she has been secretly committing fornication. i am sure you can appreciate this subtle difference.
About 19-28.
she was being blamed by her family for committing a gross sin , not being expected of her. They were disappointed by her , so she was being told , that look, your father was a good man nor was your mother a bad women (in sexual sense) , and as you have not inherited bad genes or influence/brought up etc. how come you.......?
19-27 to 30 Then she brought him to her people, mounted. They said, `O Mary, surely, thou hast committed a monstrous thing !O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle He said Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet
I don't find any problem in this.
God bless you
siki
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Peace,
Baghiyaa does not immediately refer to sexual misconduct. As we can see by the story of Mary, is that she was living in a society with strict rules and regulations, and she was dedicated to the temple service.
In 1922-23 Mary is shown grieving, then talking to most likely her husband. Although married, they made a violation of the normal sanctuary rules, as she became pregnant in the non-holy months, so she fled the temple for a while and labor pains all add to her grief which she is expressing. This is why her family acted so offended in 1927, and said she had done wrong by breaking the custom as she was part of a Royal Family. This is why they remind her of her lineage. In 1928 she is said to have done bagiyaa, which means to go beyond the bounds of custom.
1928 O Sister of Aaron! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother a loose woman=bagiyaa, nor did she ever oppose the system=bagiyaa."
All royal couples were expected to only procreate in specific months, so that their offspring would be born in Jewish Holy months. Sex outside of these months were seen as a grave offence. In 1925 we are told Jesus was born when the dates are ripe. In Palestine this means between late September and early October. This period falls outside of the Jewish Holy Months as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls are writings of the Nazarene Temple where Mary lived and Jesus was part of. The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden before the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, and were found in 1945. These Scrolls are untampered and did not go through a long chain of oral tradition or rewritings. So they give a complete and authentic report of the Nazerene customs and beliefs.
And also the people accusing her of 'bagiyaa' are the same people who believe given a child to the Temple is a thing that would please Allah. This is why you should always analyze who says something and how the Quran describes such person's belief, before you can understand why the person says it.
First we look at Nikaa meaning marriage/combining/mixing/contract/covenant/joining
BaGhA'a (as also in 1920 Bagyyaa) meaning
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchaste (as this exceeds the bounds)Tahasanun
HaSadNun
To be well fortified /to strengthen /to immunize /to secure /to strengthen ones position /to be secure /be protectedAnd TaHaSadNun
securing /safeguarding /protection /protectedness
See Hans Wehr - A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic - Edited by J. Milton Cowan (Third Edition)(183)Furthermore, Abu Fazl , A.M.Omar and Lanes hold similar ideas on the issue of
Hasuna (Ha,Sad,Nun) Giving
to fortify /to secure /to structure (a palace)Malakat
coming from the word MaLaK
kingdom or realm , to rule, have authorityAyManukum
oath/pledge , what your right hand posses/sweared uponMa malakat aymanukum what is under your guardianship/oath/possesion
Verse 2432
"And combine/marry/bring together off those among you who are single/solitary, and from the virtious/good/righteous among your male and female servants/subordinates/workers. If they are poor/in need, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.2433
And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides.
"Hayatud Dunya" has been presented to be so by Abu Fazl in his Urdu Dictionary in Urdu words as follows "Fawri Aaish", "Immediate enjoyments" as Dunya also refers towhat is in reach .
God is the one who "protects them from the consequences of the plans and their own choices" and "provides them",
Ghafuur=
God is the one who "protects".Ghafuur means "the one who protects" as in a helmet and harnas, a covering protection. (Refer Gharibul Quran - Abu Fazl, Dictionary of the Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar, Lanes Lexicon).
Raheem means "the one who provides"
(Refer Lughatul Quran,Gharibul Quran, Dictionary of the Quran by A.M.Omar notes on "Rahma"In 2432 it is to combine the single people, so they can find a partner in love, and don't just pick out the rich. Combine the rich and poor to get a balanced society, where equality rules. And God will help them all grow then. And in 2433 if they can't find a good combination yet, let them wait, and don't fall into illicit acts. And if you are a trustee/responsible over people under your care, that can mean from daughters to anyone under your authority/guardianship, then if they are ready, let them get married if they want, and help them get started. And don't force the daughters/women into situations were they feel they are being treated with unjust, things that go beyond their wishes, their permission, let them fill in their own lives. Let them decide on their own, how they want to develope. So this can apply to choice of education, husband, work, and so on. Just to please your or a family, or to uphold a tradition, or to gratify your wishes and plans you had with them, is something not accepted by God as He is the one who protects and provides. It secures women's right to be independent and make their own decisions.
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The root explains the concept. The basic thought in this particular root is to exceed moderate limits. Therefore whenever any word made from this root will be used in relation to a particular matter, action, and situation the word shall be construed to mean and translated accordingly in other languages. When it is used with reference to two business partners one of whom is exceeding moderate behavior, it will mean ?Wronged?. But when certain people are forcing (Takrehoo) their female servants towards ?Al Baghiya? for the purpose of earning worldly gains, it will have no other meaning but forcing them for prostitution. In 2433 and 3822 the difference of ?Al? needs also to be looked into. It has made the meanings specific/restricted. Even if we remove the word ?prostitution? here, we will have to say ?do not force your female servants upon wrong?, but the perception will remain the same ?prostitution?.
Brother Hamsa
?Fatayatkum? can?t be translated as ?your daughters?. The matter under discussion in the Ayah relates only to female servants.
Prostitution is disgusting and hateful. But it is a fact and reality on ground. That is why Allah is advising to refrain from it.Syeda Maryam Siddiqa?s question was regarding having a son. She explained, ?Neither I am touched by a man, nor I have been ?baghiyya?
Marriage alone has nothing to do with the birth of a child. After marriage birth can take place only when the husband has ?touched? his wife. It is our perception and so was that of Syeda Maryam. After Nikah, permission has been granted to divorce even before wife had been ?touched?. A woman can be ?touched? by a man in the fold of Nikah(marriage) and outside the fold of Nikah (Baghiyann). These are two conducts, situations antonym to each other. One is right/permissible/moderate and the other is wrong/unlawful. She told that neither she is married nor unchaste, therefore, she questioned how can she bear a child? -
The root explains the concept. The basic thought in this particular root is to exceed moderate limits. Therefore whenever any word made from this root will be used in relation to a particular matter, action, and situation the word shall be construed to mean and translated accordingly in other languages. When it is used with reference to two business partners one of whom is exceeding moderate behavior, it will mean ?Wronged?. But when certain people are forcing (Takrehoo) their female servants towards ?Al Baghiya? for the purpose of earning worldly gains, it will have no other meaning but forcing them for prostitution. In 2433 and 3822 the difference of ?Al? needs also to be looked into. It has made the meanings specific/restricted. Even if we remove the word ?prostitution? here, we will have to say ?do not force your female servants upon wrong?, but the perception will remain the same ?prostitution?.
Syeda Maryam Siddiqa?s question was regarding having a son. She explained, ?Neither I am touched by a man, nor I have been ?baghiyya?
Marriage alone has nothing to do with the birth of a child. After marriage birth can take place only when the husband has ?touched? his wife. It is our perception and so was that of Syeda Maryam. After Nikah, permission has been granted to divorce even before wife had been ?touched?. A woman can be ?touched? by a man in the fold of Nikah(marriage) and outside the fold of Nikah (Baghiyann). These are two conducts, situations antonym to each other. One is right/permissible/moderate and the other is wrong/unlawful. She told that neither she is married nor unchaste, therefore, she questioned how can she bear a child?peace Brother MAzhar
thanks for saving me the efforts, same is my opinion. appreciate your input
siki
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Brother Hamsa
?Fatayatkum? can?t be translated as ?your daughters?. The matter under discussion in the Ayah relates only to female servants.
Prostitution is disgusting and hateful. But it is a fact and reality on ground. That is why Allah is advising to refrain from it.I requote my earlier post.
" Fatayat is any young girl , she could be your MMA, (slave girl, which your right hand posses) servant, daughter, sister , niece etc, Any young girl who could be under an individual's(man or a woman) influence, to be compelled into committing such an act.
In the subject verse though, initially the subject of address are MMA (slaves) however in the later part the use of the word Fatayat was not bounded/followed by MMa ( unlike the verse 4-25). as such opening up its application in general for all categories of young women as well .
siki
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2433
And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides.
Thanks brother Arnold! Now the verse is clear to me, It certainly makes sense.....Thanks again
Thanks everyone else...
Salaam o rahmah
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Salaam siki
If her people suspected her of having a baby through "prostitution", they wouldn't have met her with this soft blame and praise for her parents. They would have met her with stones, her and her family.
In this particular verse she is not being blamed for prostitution , but for being a fornicator , which she is trying to clarify.
The prostitutes generally avoid getting pregnant. A wrong or indecent act for a women in sexual terms is fornication. when somebody is forced by someone to comit fornication , that someone is looking for material gain through this process, and hence would convert this act into, what is known as "Forcing some one into Prostitution"
peace
siki
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In this particular verse she is not being blamed for prostitution , but for being a fornicator , which she is trying to clarify.
Dosn't make a difference. She is carrying her proof of fornication. According to their law (which punishes a raped woman too) she should have been stoned to death. This still happens in some communities, and the "islamic" law derived from jewish sources acknowledges death penalty for fornication.