and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution...
-
Peace brother Ayman,
Thank you for your reply, I agree that is certainly the very very wrong translation. I cannot understand how these people can mock verses of quran. Fornication is already strictly prohibited, how can God just say do not compell them for prostitution? That is just disgusting.
That verse has definitely different meaning, I just looked at FM translation, I don't know how it make sense....I couldn't understand it. I have seen many cases where parents do not let their daughters get married because their daughters work and run their expenses... but according to following translation it says do not compell your daughters into marriage to gain goods of this life....??? Would you also please give the best possible translation.
- And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are committed to you by oath seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your daughters into marriage when they have desired independence, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Peace and Thanks.
-
I do not agree with Ayman's view. please look at the following verses about Mariam,
19-20 She said When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? (baghia)
19-28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot (baghia)
Context is very important in picking up the correct meaning of a word in a certain sentence, use of BGH when the subject is woman's sexuality, will be fornication/ lewdness/ unchastity etc, and in 24-33 when somebody/Guardian forces a young girl to commit such an act, would most likely press her to obtain some material benifit for himself. And we have word for it "Prostitution"
peace
siki
-
I do not agree with Ayman's view. please look at the following verses about Mariam,
19-20 She said When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste? (baghia)
19-28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot (baghia)
Context is very important in picking up the correct meaning of a word in a certain sentence, use of BGH when the subject is woman's sexuality, will be fornication/ lewdness/ unchastity etc, and in 24-33 when somebody/Guardian forces a young girl to commit such an act, would most likely press her to obtain some material benifit for himself. And we have word for it "Prostitution"
peace
siki
Peace siki,
IMHO, When Mary said walam yamsasnee basharun it clearly means she is neither married nor touched otherwise(unchaste), I don't think the next part of verse is just repetition of what is already said, when she said walam aku baghiyyan I don't think baghiyyan here simply means unchaste...
19-28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot (baghia)... I think she certainly did something against the will of the priests/or law thats why they referred to both her parents father and mother abooki imraa saw-in wama kanat ommuki baghiyyan
Salaams and thanks for your replies...
-
peace hamsa
I appreciate your keen sense of analysis . Your first point is valid to a certain extent. To further take on a healthy discussion , my comments are!
when she was pregnant with the boy, she probably meant to convey "As every body knows she is not married (Declared/known relation ship which could make her pregnant) , and further declares That " Nor she has been secretly committing fornication. i am sure you can appreciate this subtle difference.
About 19-28.
she was being blamed by her family for committing a gross sin , not being expected of her. They were disappointed by her , so she was being told , that look, your father was a good man nor was your mother a bad women (in sexual sense) , and as you have not inherited bad genes or influence/brought up etc. how come you.......?
19-27 to 30 Then she brought him to her people, mounted. They said, `O Mary, surely, thou hast committed a monstrous thing !O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle He said Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet
I don't find any problem in this.
God bless you
siki
-
Peace,
Baghiyaa does not immediately refer to sexual misconduct. As we can see by the story of Mary, is that she was living in a society with strict rules and regulations, and she was dedicated to the temple service.
In 1922-23 Mary is shown grieving, then talking to most likely her husband. Although married, they made a violation of the normal sanctuary rules, as she became pregnant in the non-holy months, so she fled the temple for a while and labor pains all add to her grief which she is expressing. This is why her family acted so offended in 1927, and said she had done wrong by breaking the custom as she was part of a Royal Family. This is why they remind her of her lineage. In 1928 she is said to have done bagiyaa, which means to go beyond the bounds of custom.
1928 O Sister of Aaron! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother a loose woman=bagiyaa, nor did she ever oppose the system=bagiyaa."
All royal couples were expected to only procreate in specific months, so that their offspring would be born in Jewish Holy months. Sex outside of these months were seen as a grave offence. In 1925 we are told Jesus was born when the dates are ripe. In Palestine this means between late September and early October. This period falls outside of the Jewish Holy Months as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls are writings of the Nazarene Temple where Mary lived and Jesus was part of. The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden before the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, and were found in 1945. These Scrolls are untampered and did not go through a long chain of oral tradition or rewritings. So they give a complete and authentic report of the Nazerene customs and beliefs.
And also the people accusing her of 'bagiyaa' are the same people who believe given a child to the Temple is a thing that would please Allah. This is why you should always analyze who says something and how the Quran describes such person's belief, before you can understand why the person says it.
First we look at Nikaa meaning marriage/combining/mixing/contract/covenant/joining
BaGhA'a (as also in 1920 Bagyyaa) meaning
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchaste (as this exceeds the bounds)Tahasanun
HaSadNun
To be well fortified /to strengthen /to immunize /to secure /to strengthen ones position /to be secure /be protectedAnd TaHaSadNun
securing /safeguarding /protection /protectedness
See Hans Wehr - A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic - Edited by J. Milton Cowan (Third Edition)(183)Furthermore, Abu Fazl , A.M.Omar and Lanes hold similar ideas on the issue of
Hasuna (Ha,Sad,Nun) Giving
to fortify /to secure /to structure (a palace)Malakat
coming from the word MaLaK
kingdom or realm , to rule, have authorityAyManukum
oath/pledge , what your right hand posses/sweared uponMa malakat aymanukum what is under your guardianship/oath/possesion
Verse 2432
"And combine/marry/bring together off those among you who are single/solitary, and from the virtious/good/righteous among your male and female servants/subordinates/workers. If they are poor/in need, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.2433
And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides.
"Hayatud Dunya" has been presented to be so by Abu Fazl in his Urdu Dictionary in Urdu words as follows "Fawri Aaish", "Immediate enjoyments" as Dunya also refers towhat is in reach .
God is the one who "protects them from the consequences of the plans and their own choices" and "provides them",
Ghafuur=
God is the one who "protects".Ghafuur means "the one who protects" as in a helmet and harnas, a covering protection. (Refer Gharibul Quran - Abu Fazl, Dictionary of the Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar, Lanes Lexicon).
Raheem means "the one who provides"
(Refer Lughatul Quran,Gharibul Quran, Dictionary of the Quran by A.M.Omar notes on "Rahma"In 2432 it is to combine the single people, so they can find a partner in love, and don't just pick out the rich. Combine the rich and poor to get a balanced society, where equality rules. And God will help them all grow then. And in 2433 if they can't find a good combination yet, let them wait, and don't fall into illicit acts. And if you are a trustee/responsible over people under your care, that can mean from daughters to anyone under your authority/guardianship, then if they are ready, let them get married if they want, and help them get started. And don't force the daughters/women into situations were they feel they are being treated with unjust, things that go beyond their wishes, their permission, let them fill in their own lives. Let them decide on their own, how they want to develope. So this can apply to choice of education, husband, work, and so on. Just to please your or a family, or to uphold a tradition, or to gratify your wishes and plans you had with them, is something not accepted by God as He is the one who protects and provides. It secures women's right to be independent and make their own decisions.
-
The root explains the concept. The basic thought in this particular root is to exceed moderate limits. Therefore whenever any word made from this root will be used in relation to a particular matter, action, and situation the word shall be construed to mean and translated accordingly in other languages. When it is used with reference to two business partners one of whom is exceeding moderate behavior, it will mean ?Wronged?. But when certain people are forcing (Takrehoo) their female servants towards ?Al Baghiya? for the purpose of earning worldly gains, it will have no other meaning but forcing them for prostitution. In 2433 and 3822 the difference of ?Al? needs also to be looked into. It has made the meanings specific/restricted. Even if we remove the word ?prostitution? here, we will have to say ?do not force your female servants upon wrong?, but the perception will remain the same ?prostitution?.
Brother Hamsa
?Fatayatkum? can?t be translated as ?your daughters?. The matter under discussion in the Ayah relates only to female servants.
Prostitution is disgusting and hateful. But it is a fact and reality on ground. That is why Allah is advising to refrain from it.Syeda Maryam Siddiqa?s question was regarding having a son. She explained, ?Neither I am touched by a man, nor I have been ?baghiyya?
Marriage alone has nothing to do with the birth of a child. After marriage birth can take place only when the husband has ?touched? his wife. It is our perception and so was that of Syeda Maryam. After Nikah, permission has been granted to divorce even before wife had been ?touched?. A woman can be ?touched? by a man in the fold of Nikah(marriage) and outside the fold of Nikah (Baghiyann). These are two conducts, situations antonym to each other. One is right/permissible/moderate and the other is wrong/unlawful. She told that neither she is married nor unchaste, therefore, she questioned how can she bear a child? -
The root explains the concept. The basic thought in this particular root is to exceed moderate limits. Therefore whenever any word made from this root will be used in relation to a particular matter, action, and situation the word shall be construed to mean and translated accordingly in other languages. When it is used with reference to two business partners one of whom is exceeding moderate behavior, it will mean ?Wronged?. But when certain people are forcing (Takrehoo) their female servants towards ?Al Baghiya? for the purpose of earning worldly gains, it will have no other meaning but forcing them for prostitution. In 2433 and 3822 the difference of ?Al? needs also to be looked into. It has made the meanings specific/restricted. Even if we remove the word ?prostitution? here, we will have to say ?do not force your female servants upon wrong?, but the perception will remain the same ?prostitution?.
Syeda Maryam Siddiqa?s question was regarding having a son. She explained, ?Neither I am touched by a man, nor I have been ?baghiyya?
Marriage alone has nothing to do with the birth of a child. After marriage birth can take place only when the husband has ?touched? his wife. It is our perception and so was that of Syeda Maryam. After Nikah, permission has been granted to divorce even before wife had been ?touched?. A woman can be ?touched? by a man in the fold of Nikah(marriage) and outside the fold of Nikah (Baghiyann). These are two conducts, situations antonym to each other. One is right/permissible/moderate and the other is wrong/unlawful. She told that neither she is married nor unchaste, therefore, she questioned how can she bear a child?peace Brother MAzhar
thanks for saving me the efforts, same is my opinion. appreciate your input
siki
-
Brother Hamsa
?Fatayatkum? can?t be translated as ?your daughters?. The matter under discussion in the Ayah relates only to female servants.
Prostitution is disgusting and hateful. But it is a fact and reality on ground. That is why Allah is advising to refrain from it.I requote my earlier post.
" Fatayat is any young girl , she could be your MMA, (slave girl, which your right hand posses) servant, daughter, sister , niece etc, Any young girl who could be under an individual's(man or a woman) influence, to be compelled into committing such an act.
In the subject verse though, initially the subject of address are MMA (slaves) however in the later part the use of the word Fatayat was not bounded/followed by MMa ( unlike the verse 4-25). as such opening up its application in general for all categories of young women as well .
siki
-
2433
And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides.
Thanks brother Arnold! Now the verse is clear to me, It certainly makes sense.....Thanks again
Thanks everyone else...
Salaam o rahmah
-
Salaam siki
If her people suspected her of having a baby through "prostitution", they wouldn't have met her with this soft blame and praise for her parents. They would have met her with stones, her and her family.
In this particular verse she is not being blamed for prostitution , but for being a fornicator , which she is trying to clarify.
The prostitutes generally avoid getting pregnant. A wrong or indecent act for a women in sexual terms is fornication. when somebody is forced by someone to comit fornication , that someone is looking for material gain through this process, and hence would convert this act into, what is known as "Forcing some one into Prostitution"
peace
siki
-
In this particular verse she is not being blamed for prostitution , but for being a fornicator , which she is trying to clarify.
Dosn't make a difference. She is carrying her proof of fornication. According to their law (which punishes a raped woman too) she should have been stoned to death. This still happens in some communities, and the "islamic" law derived from jewish sources acknowledges death penalty for fornication.
-
Thanks brother Arnold! Now the verse is clear to me, It certainly makes sense.....Thanks again
Thanks everyone else...
Salaam o rahmah
women ,,, sexuality.... hsn ,,,fortification/protection in terms of sexuality,,,,,Chastity,,,and exceeding those limits ,,,,Baghiya....when forced,,,, prostitution..etc
All are interrelated...Arabic is much more than randomly replacing the words of your choice picked up from a dictionary .
peace
siki
-
Dosn't make a difference. She is carrying her proof of fornication. According to their law (which punishes a raped woman too) she should have been stoned to death. This still happens in some communities, and the "islamic" law derived from jewish sources acknowledges death penalty for fornication.
This law prevails in my country too, and above like incidents are not rare occurrences here , specially in villages. But i have hardly come across an incident when such a situation was converted into a " Rajam"scenario by her people/family instantly.
Do you mean that any young women carrying a child without a licence plate stating that she is married and this is a legal child should/would be stoned to death by people instantly without being asked a single question?
My dear sister ! how do you know , that the law prevailing then , was actually Rajam? And if it was so , did she not have a right to at least give an explanation? and can't you see in those verses that she did clarify that allegation when young Jesus (pbuh) spoke from the crib?
I am sorry to Say " I am disappointed once again" .
peace
siki
-
?Fa te? {fa-Ta-Ya}has the basic meaning ?youth?, young, man or woman. ?They said we heard a young man (fatay} talking about them, his name is Ibrahim? (2160). And then it was used to refer to servant (basic consideration for a servant should be Qawi, and Ameen as the daughter of old man had said for employing Musa a.s).
?Daughter? refers to a specific, defined and known relationship (Al Ma roof). Daughter can also be young, but this word(fatay) alone will never refer to the relationship, which is reflected by the word daughter.If we agree with this sort of explanation, then how would we translate the first part of 425, Like this ?With what your right hand possesses OUT of your believing young daughters?. There is ?Minn? ?out of? {tab eez}. People who have ?ma malakat aimanukum? also have other fatatayate-female servants. Therefore let us not stretch it in 2433 to mean daughters.
By no stretch of imagination ?young man? young boy, young girl, young woman can be translated as ?son? ?daughter?. And we should also not do it.
-
My dear sister ! how do you know , that the law prevailing then , was actually Rajam? And if it was so , did she not have a right to at least give an explanation? and can't you see in those verses that she did clarify that allegation when young Jesus (pbuh) spoke from the crib?
I am sorry to Say " I am disappointed once again" (.
peace
siki
You miss the whole point about their reaction to a fornicator. As usual, always "off point" hence always "dissppointed"
-
?Fa te? {fa-Ta-Ya}has the basic meaning ?youth?, young, man or woman. ?They said we heard a young man (fatay} talking about them, his name is Ibrahim? (2160). And then it was used to refer to servant (basic consideration for a servant should be Qawi, and Ameen as the daughter of old man had said for employing Musa a.s).
?Daughter? refers to a specific, defined and known relationship (Al Ma roof). Daughter can also be young, but this word(fatay) alone will never refer to the relationship, which is reflected by the word daughter.If we agree with this sort of explanation, then how would we translate the first part of 425, Like this ?With what your right hand possesses OUT of your believing young daughters?. There is ?Minn? ?out of? {tab eez}. People who have ?ma malakat aimanukum? also have other fatatayate-female servants. Therefore let us not stretch it in 2433 to mean daughters.
By no stretch of imagination ?young man? young boy, young girl, young woman can be translated as ?son? ?daughter?. And we should also not do it.
I agree.
However construction of the sentence is such that we can not limit its application to young females of MMA only, by her possessor.This one is applicable for every one (men or women) who can influence/force a young lady to perform such an act specially when she is desirous of protecting herself from such acts.
peace
siki