My case for treating them as fictional...
-
Peace Lobster,
while I agree that whether the stories are true or not is irrelevant but if you check the QXP translation Shabir quotes many examples to try and prove that the quran contains accurate history.
Whether he is going to be biased >D or >D misleading is something i don't know. I remember reading about the Egyption pyramids and historians say that slaves did not build them, but according to the Judeo-Christian tradition they were built by slaves, that's why so many people believe that they were built by slaves even though they actually won't.
-
attributes are proven through their embodiment
Explain, please.
Angel,
while I agree that whether the stories are true or not is irrelevant but if you check the QXP translation Shabir quotes many examples to try and prove that the quran contains accurate history.
QXP says a lot of things that the quran doesn't say. I like QXP, but a lot of times it stops being a translation and becomes an interpretation/explanation, and the angle that's taken by Shabbir (and Arnold) I just don't agree with.
I think everyone's biased, at least a little bit.
The quran's like poetry. TO actually understand what the author was trying to say, we have to read it carefully, concentrating on each word individually and try (we can only try) to understand what the words meant to the author, not what they mean to others or to ourselves. It's really hard to do that, and with a book as old as the quran, I'd say nearly impossible. And even if one does read it without any biases or preconceptions, different interpretations are still possible. But as far as the quran being a moral guide goes, I don't think it matters what the quran is actually saying, as long as we believe in the right things. -
Peace Lobster,
By "them" I mean the prophets. Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc.
The thing is, in the quran, god asks us for PROOF again and again ("...bring forth your proof if you are truthful...". But regarding these people, it gives us no proof of their existence.
To me, that means that the quran isn't trying to prove these people as actual people from history, and so we can safely assume that whether they existed or not is unimportant and irrelevant to the message of the quran.
So we have to look at them as characters in a fiction book. Everything they do, and everything that is mentioned about them, is for a reason. Everything is there for the underlying message.
Let's discuss.There are three types of statements
- Verifiable as true.
- Unverifiable.
- Verifiable as false.
From a historical prespective a statement such as "John said pigs can fly" can be verifiable as true because perhaps we can prove that John actually said that, despite the content itself being false. You see history is not concerned with content.
On the other hand, from a historical prespective, the accounts of the lives of the prophets in the great reading can be considered "unverifiable". So I can argue that they are true and you can argue that they are false and no one can decisevely win such arguments. But then when you think about it, so are all historical accounts of the lives of any person. For example, even modern figures, say Rashad Khalifa or Abraham Lincoln, people differ greatly on the "historical" account of their lives.
The great reading is clearly not recounting the history of those prophets. If you read one of the many books that were written about the stories of the prophets, you will see right away that 99.9% of the story is not from the great reading. In some cases, just the name of the prophet and one or two lines from an entire 100 page book has some basis in the great reading.
The only account that remotely resembles a story is that of Joseph in Chapter 12. But even there, much detail from a historical account point of view is not present so the objective of Chapter 12 is clearly not to give us a historical account of Joseph's live.
As I said, history is not concerned with content while the great reading is primarily concerned with content and the lessons learned. So in the great reading you find the events of the story of Adam recounted in different ways and same with other stories such as that of Moses. In each way of recounting the story, you get a different prespective and lessons learned and there is no chronological order in the great reading. This is exactly the opposite approach of recounting history where historians are trying to get to as nicely linear and standard as possible story.
So the criteria that you are using to determine what is true and what is false in historical accounts is not appropriate for the great reading. In fact, even using this criteria for historical accounts, you will certainly get many true historical accounts that are completely useless. Just think about it. For example, if you were to write a history of your own life to provide lessons for your future children and grandchildren. Would you put it as follows
- I was born on so and so date and here is the copy of my birth certificate to verify it.
- I graduated from High School on so and so date with a so and so GPA and here is the diploma to verify it.
- I worked as a so and so for this long and here are my tax documents and pay stubs to verify it.
- I married Miss X on this date and here is a copy of our marriage certificate to verify it as true.
- I had so many children and here is their respective birth certificates to verify it as true.
- Postscript by your children Our father died on so and so date and here is his death certificate to verify it.
Is this the legacy that you want to leave for the next generations? Or would you prefer to leave them something more useful? Why do you assume that Abraham and all the prophets would want something less than you?
I would prefer to leave for my children and grandchildren something about me that has some useful wisdom in its content.
The great reading is not a history book. It is a book of wisdom. I know that everything in it is true because it is all wise.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Salam.
Lobster, i believe that these men did exist and i would ask you to check it before you say anything, you always have to verify stuff when you receive it, even if someone tells you it's a sunny day outside or snowing, don't just accept it and live by it, no, go outside and check it over and over untill you are 100% sure. 150% sure.
Ask The Exalted God Most Merciful to forgive you, pray, He has always answered my prayers, God always listens, He listens to the prayers of the believers. And be patient.
Peace.
-
peace Ayman,
I totally agree with you (unless I misunderstood you).
I was saying that the quran's point is not to show that these people are real, and that we MUST believe in their historical existence (maybe we disagree here?). I think that whether they existed or not is irrelevant. That's not what the quran is focussing on, because then it would give us evidence, it would give us the birth certificates and the diplomas and everything. It doesn't. So obviously, it is the underlying message of these accounts that we must focus on.
I say we should just forget that these people ever existed. Then only can we look at the quran without any preconceptions. -
Peace Lobster,
I totally agree with you (unless I misunderstood you).
I was saying that the quran's point is not to show that these people are real, and that we MUST believe in their historical existence (maybe we disagree here?). I think that whether they existed or not is irrelevant. That's not what the quran is focussing on, because then it would give us evidence, it would give us the birth certificates and the diplomas and everything. It doesn't. So obviously, it is the underlying message of these accounts that we must focus on.
I say we should just forget that these people ever existed. Then only can we look at the quran without any preconceptions.Do you think that whether you existed or not is irrelevant? What would make your own existence relevant?
Let me slightly rephrase something I said earlier
The great reading is not a history book. It is a book of wisdom. I know that everything in it is true (including the existence of prophets) because it is all wise.
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace,
Do you think that whether you existed or not is irrelevant? What would make your own existence relevant?
Relevant to what?
If I left my children lessons from my life, does it matter whether I existed or not? Those lessons would hold true anyway.The great reading is not a history book. It is a book of wisdom. I know that everything in it is true (including the existence of prophets) because it is all wise.
Okay, I understand you. But still, just because the message is true, doesn't mean the characters actually existed. That's why I brought up fiction writing. A lot of times the stories contain lessons, but the people in it never actually existed. They are symbols. They either represent concepts or ideas, or they represent us in certain situations.
That's why I think it's irrelevant.
Only what the reading says about them is relevant to its message. The rest only comes in the way. -
Peace Phoenix, all,
I agree with you that the actual existence of any of the prophets and messengers is irrelevant as far as the underlying message is concerned. And actual proof of any history can never really be 100% guaranteed as a true account. Documents can be forged, testimony could be coerced, embellished, or just plain imagined, etc. Taking this path of thought to the most extreme, even your life and everyone/thing around you could be a figment of your own imagination. At the end of the day, it's all about you and how you interact with (and hopefully evolve from) your own mind.
Nevertheless, I kinda disagree with this
I say we should just forget that these people ever existed. Then only can we look at the quran without any preconceptions.
I don't think believing anyone actually existed interferes with the guidance of the qur'an. It's only when one becomes obsessed with the details that the message is lost. But to just say, "OK, Ibrahim was a real person", really does not take away from nor add preconception to one's qur'anic studies.
I think the history, even if cloudy, sets the backdrop for the mind to imagine the stories being told. In mentally visualizing, we watch the inner movie and then look for the guidance within.
Peace,
Tay -
I don't think believing anyone actually existed interferes with the guidance of the qur'an. It's only when one becomes obsessed with the details that the message is lost. But to just say, "OK, Ibrahim was a real person", really does not take away from nor add preconception to one's qur'anic studies.
I think the history, even if cloudy, sets the backdrop for the mind to imagine the stories being told. In mentally visualizing, we watch the inner movie and then look for the guidance within.
hmm
yeah I guess.
But I was thinking that if you have to believe that they existed, then you may use what you find from other sources to interpret the quran. Like muslim scholars have been interpreting the quran based on the bible. Which just doesn't work.
If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?).
And we just don't know if the quran intends to present these people as real or as just symbolic characters. We can't know that.
But I can certainly see your point. -
Peace Phoenix,
But I was thinking that if you have to believe that they existed, then you may use what you find from other sources to interpret the quran. Like muslim scholars have been interpreting the quran based on the bible. Which just doesn't work.
I agree. I think "if you have to" is the key phrase. No one really has to. But again, some people will explore the histories because it interests them. And even if they use their findings to then interpret the qur'an, it's their own perogative, right? As long as no one's forcing it down your throat, all is well.
If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?).
Good job! I see your point, and I agree. I think you've hit on something important. And yes, muddle is a word.
And we just don't know if the quran intends to present these people as real or as just symbolic characters. We can't know that.
You're right, we can't. You gotta remember, bro, that the qur'an is for everyone. Some will be delighted at the stories for their face value and perhaps absorb the guidance subconsciously. Others will sniff out the guidance and toss the details aside. I think it's important to tolerate each other.
When my fiance' listens to a song for the first time, she "feels" the beat and listens to the words. By the 2nd and 3rd time, she has the song memorized. When I listen to a song, I "feel" the words and listen to the beats and melodies. I see the song in layers and dissect the instruments and vocal harmonies, etc. I may listen 20-30 times before the lyrics make their way into my brain. That's her, and that's me, and that's the way it is.
Peace,
Tay -
peace Tay,
I agree. I think "if you have to" is the key phrase. No one really has to. But again, some people will explore the histories because it interests them. And even if they use their findings to then interpret the qur'an, it's their own perogative, right? As long as no one's forcing it down your throat, all is well.
Agree.
Good job! I see your point, and I agree. I think you've hit on something important. And yes, muddle is a word.
thank you.
You're right, we can't. You gotta remember, bro, that the qur'an is for everyone. Some will be delighted at the stories for their face value and perhaps absorb the guidance subconsciously. Others will sniff out the guidance and toss the details aside. I think it's important to tolerate each other.
hmm
yeah, true.When my fiance' listens to a song for the first time, she "feels" the beat and listens to the words. By the 2nd and 3rd time, she has the song memorized. When I listen to a song, I "feel" the words and listen to the beats and melodies. I see the song in layers and dissect the instruments and vocal harmonies, etc. I may listen 20-30 times before the lyrics make their way into my brain. That's her, and that's me, and that's the way it is.
I'd say I'm more like you in that respect.
It sucks though when I really like a song and then I start listening to the words and they're horrible. -
Peace DArgento,
you seem to know a lot about arhaelogical evidence, is there evidence for any of these prophets existing?
The simple answer is no.
There is no evidence of me existing either. For all you know I could be an 8 year old girl playing on the computer or I could be 100 people sharing this ID. However, this is not the point because by logically looking at the content of my posts, I would hope that people trust that I exist. ;D
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Lobster,
I just want to say that I generally agree with Tay and you.
If I left my children lessons from my life, does it matter whether I existed or not? Those lessons would hold true anyway.
If those lessons are relevant to real-life experiences, then part of their truth is in those experiences. You can't convey those experiences if you were a fictional character that didn't exist.
But I was thinking that if you have to believe that they existed, then you may use what you find from other sources to interpret the quran.
You don't have to unless you are looking to embellish stories to make them entertaining. If you are focused on the lessons learned instead of hero-worship then you don't have to worry about this.
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace Ayman,
I don't want to keep arguing about this since we already agree in the general idea. but just one thing I wanted to say...
If those lessons are relevant to real-life experiences, then part of their truth is in those experiences. You can't convey those experiences if you were a fictional character that didn't exist.
I can't. But someone else certainly can. Someone can make up a character that would convey the message better than his real self.
I wrote an autobiographical short story and I found that it was hard to convey my underlying message or theme while staying true to my actual life. If I could fictionalize it, change some things, it would be much more effective.But the quran doesn't invent characters, it just borrows them from legends and some of the details have been altered to fit the new message. That's how I see it.
To me, I don't have to believe that the person I read about had to be a real person to understand the message. Maybe others do. Maybe that's more helpful to them. I don't think it really matters as long as the true message is understood.
You don't have to unless you are looking to embellish stories to make them entertaining. If you are focused on the lessons learned instead of hero-worship then you don't have to worry about this.
I don't think people would look at outside sources just for embellishment. Maybe they want to know more about the person? But yea, if one wants the lesson in the quran, one has to stick to the quran only.
-
If I could fictionalize it, change some things, it would be much more effective.
true, but does that not also make you a liar? .......... how much the truth is emphasized in the quran
To me, I don't have to believe that the person I read about had to be a real person to understand the message. Maybe others do. Maybe that's more helpful to them. I don't think it really matters as long as the true message is understood.
I agree with this, i believe them to be real persons but we should stop arguing about this and just worry about their message, thats what really matters is following their wonderful messages
-
true, but does that not also make you a liar? .......... how much the truth is emphasized in the quran
It wouldn't make me a liar at all. Unless of course I claim that my made up character is a real person.
I agree with this, i believe them to be real persons but we should stop arguing about this and just worry about their message, thats what really matters is following their wonderful messages
Totally. but the very important point I wanted to make was this (from my earlier posts)
"If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?)."
"if one wants the lesson in the quran, one has to stick to the quran only." -
Unless of course I claim that my made up character is a real person.
okay i see what you are saying
Totally. but the very important point I wanted to make was this (from my earlier posts)
"If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?)."
"if one wants the lesson in the quran, one has to stick to the quran only."i agree, and yes 'muddled' is a word sun
-
Peace all,
It is important that believers believe in the messengers and not differentiate between them.2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers ?We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;? and they said ?We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny.?
4150 Those who rejected God and His messengers, and they want to make a distinction between God and His messengers, and they say ?We believe in some and reject some!?, and they desire to take a path in-between.
4078 And We have sent messengers prior to you. Some of them We have narrated to you, and some We did not narrate to you. And it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a sign except by God?s leave. So, when God's judgment is issued, the matter is decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will be lost.
From a Quranic point of view I have never come across a verse saying that Abraham, Adam, Moses, Jesus etc. were made up. In fact I come across verses that correct common misconceptions about them.
367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nazarene, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of those who set up partners.
4171 O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God?s messenger and the fulfilment of His word to Mary, and Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say ?Trinity.? Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker.
365 ?O people of the Scripture, why do you debate us regarding Abraham when the Torah and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not understand??
2102 And they followed what the devils recited regarding Solomon?s kingship. Solomon did not reject, but it was the devils that rejected by teaching people magic, and teaching them what was sent down on the two angels in Babylon, Haroot and Maroot. They did not teach anyone until they would say ?We are a test, so do not lose faith!? Thus they teach what can separate between a person and his mate; but they cannot harm anyone except by God?s permission. And they learn what harms them and does not benefit them, and they have known that he who purchases such has no place in the Hereafter. Miserable indeed is what they purchased with their souls if only they knew!
There are clear verses that talk about the people of 'Aad, Thamud, and Noah as precursors to our civilization.
149 Did not news come to you of those before you the people of Noah, and ?Aad, and Thamud, and those after them whom none know but God? Their messengers came to them with clarity, but they placed their hands to their mouths and said ?We are rejecting what you have been sent with, and we are in grave doubt as to what you are inviting us to.?
4437 Are they better or the people of Tubba` and those before them? We destroyed them, they were criminals.
769 ?Are you surprised that a reminder has come to you from your Lord through a man from amongst you to warn you? And recall that he made you successors after the people of Noah, and He increased you in status. So recall God?s grace, that you may succeed.?
1160 And they were followed by a curse in this world and on the Day of Judgment, for ?Aad rejected their Lord. There is no more ?Aad, the people of Hud.
1168 It is as if they never lived there. For Thamud rejected their Lord. There is no more Thamud.
2931 And when Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they then said ?We are to destroy the people of such a town, for its people have been wicked.?
2242 And if they deny you, then denied also before them did the people of Noah and ?Aad and Thamud.
2243 And the people of Abraham and the people of Lot.
2244 And the dwellers of Midyan; and Moses was denied. So I granted respite to the rejecters then I took them, how then was My punishment?
2245 So how many a town have We destroyed while it was doing wrong, so that it is lying in ruins with its wells abandoned, and empty palaces.
2246 Have they not roamed the land and had hearts with which to comprehend and ears with which to hear? No, it is not the sight which is blind, but it is the hearts that are in the chests that are blind.896 Did you not see what your Lord did to ?Aad?
897 Irum, with the great columns?
898 The one which was like no other in the land?
899 And Thamud who carved the rocks in the valley?
8910 And Pharaoh with the planks?
8911 They all transgressed in the land.Also these verses here are clearly honouring the past prophets/messengers. Why would the Quran place such honour on people who do not even exist?
1912 ?O John, take the Scripture with confidence.? And We gave him authority while in his youth.
1913 And he had kindness from Us and purity, and he was ever righteous.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient.
1915 And peace be upon him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the Day he is resurrected alive.1941 And recall in the Scripture Abraham; he was a man of faith, a prophet.
1951 And recall in the Scripture Moses; he was loyal, and he was a messenger prophet.
1951 And recall in the Scripture Moses; he was loyal, and he was a messenger prophet.
1952 And We called him from the right side of the mount, and We brought him close to talk with.
1953 And We granted him from Our mercy his brother Aaron as a prophet.
1954 And recall in the Scripture Ishmael; he was truthful to his promise, and he was a messenger prophet.
1955 And he used to instruct his family with the communion and towards betterment, and his Lord was pleased with him.
1956 And recall in the Scripture Enoch; he was a man of truth, a prophet.
1957 And We raised him to a high place.
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.Be careful about calling God's Revelations tales of the past or a work of fiction.
625 And from them are those who listen to you; and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not believe; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject say ?This is nothing but the tales from the past!?
831 And if Our revelations are recited to them, they say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
1624 And if they are told ?What has your Lord sent down?? They say ?Fairytales of old.?
2383 ?We, as well as our fathers, have been promised this from before. This is nothing but the tales of the ancients.?
255 And they said ?Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening.?
2768 ?We have been promised this, both us and our fathers before. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
4617 And the one who says to his parents ?Enough of you! Are you promising me that I will be resurrected, when the generations who died before me never came back?? While they both will implore God ?Woe to you; believe! For God's promise is the truth.? He would say ?This is nothing but tales from the past!?
6815 When Our revelations are recited to him, he says ?Tales from the past!?
8313 When Our verses are recited to him, he says ?Tales of the ancients!?
May God guide us.