My case for treating them as fictional...
-
peace,
Do you think that whether you existed or not is irrelevant? What would make your own existence relevant?
Relevant to what?
If I left my children lessons from my life, does it matter whether I existed or not? Those lessons would hold true anyway.The great reading is not a history book. It is a book of wisdom. I know that everything in it is true (including the existence of prophets) because it is all wise.
Okay, I understand you. But still, just because the message is true, doesn't mean the characters actually existed. That's why I brought up fiction writing. A lot of times the stories contain lessons, but the people in it never actually existed. They are symbols. They either represent concepts or ideas, or they represent us in certain situations.
That's why I think it's irrelevant.
Only what the reading says about them is relevant to its message. The rest only comes in the way. -
Peace Phoenix, all,
I agree with you that the actual existence of any of the prophets and messengers is irrelevant as far as the underlying message is concerned. And actual proof of any history can never really be 100% guaranteed as a true account. Documents can be forged, testimony could be coerced, embellished, or just plain imagined, etc. Taking this path of thought to the most extreme, even your life and everyone/thing around you could be a figment of your own imagination. At the end of the day, it's all about you and how you interact with (and hopefully evolve from) your own mind.
Nevertheless, I kinda disagree with this
I say we should just forget that these people ever existed. Then only can we look at the quran without any preconceptions.
I don't think believing anyone actually existed interferes with the guidance of the qur'an. It's only when one becomes obsessed with the details that the message is lost. But to just say, "OK, Ibrahim was a real person", really does not take away from nor add preconception to one's qur'anic studies.
I think the history, even if cloudy, sets the backdrop for the mind to imagine the stories being told. In mentally visualizing, we watch the inner movie and then look for the guidance within.
Peace,
Tay -
I don't think believing anyone actually existed interferes with the guidance of the qur'an. It's only when one becomes obsessed with the details that the message is lost. But to just say, "OK, Ibrahim was a real person", really does not take away from nor add preconception to one's qur'anic studies.
I think the history, even if cloudy, sets the backdrop for the mind to imagine the stories being told. In mentally visualizing, we watch the inner movie and then look for the guidance within.
hmm
yeah I guess.
But I was thinking that if you have to believe that they existed, then you may use what you find from other sources to interpret the quran. Like muslim scholars have been interpreting the quran based on the bible. Which just doesn't work.
If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?).
And we just don't know if the quran intends to present these people as real or as just symbolic characters. We can't know that.
But I can certainly see your point. -
Peace Phoenix,
But I was thinking that if you have to believe that they existed, then you may use what you find from other sources to interpret the quran. Like muslim scholars have been interpreting the quran based on the bible. Which just doesn't work.
I agree. I think "if you have to" is the key phrase. No one really has to. But again, some people will explore the histories because it interests them. And even if they use their findings to then interpret the qur'an, it's their own perogative, right? As long as no one's forcing it down your throat, all is well.
If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?).
Good job! I see your point, and I agree. I think you've hit on something important. And yes, muddle is a word.
And we just don't know if the quran intends to present these people as real or as just symbolic characters. We can't know that.
You're right, we can't. You gotta remember, bro, that the qur'an is for everyone. Some will be delighted at the stories for their face value and perhaps absorb the guidance subconsciously. Others will sniff out the guidance and toss the details aside. I think it's important to tolerate each other.
When my fiance' listens to a song for the first time, she "feels" the beat and listens to the words. By the 2nd and 3rd time, she has the song memorized. When I listen to a song, I "feel" the words and listen to the beats and melodies. I see the song in layers and dissect the instruments and vocal harmonies, etc. I may listen 20-30 times before the lyrics make their way into my brain. That's her, and that's me, and that's the way it is.
Peace,
Tay -
peace Tay,
I agree. I think "if you have to" is the key phrase. No one really has to. But again, some people will explore the histories because it interests them. And even if they use their findings to then interpret the qur'an, it's their own perogative, right? As long as no one's forcing it down your throat, all is well.
Agree.
Good job! I see your point, and I agree. I think you've hit on something important. And yes, muddle is a word.
thank you.
You're right, we can't. You gotta remember, bro, that the qur'an is for everyone. Some will be delighted at the stories for their face value and perhaps absorb the guidance subconsciously. Others will sniff out the guidance and toss the details aside. I think it's important to tolerate each other.
hmm
yeah, true.When my fiance' listens to a song for the first time, she "feels" the beat and listens to the words. By the 2nd and 3rd time, she has the song memorized. When I listen to a song, I "feel" the words and listen to the beats and melodies. I see the song in layers and dissect the instruments and vocal harmonies, etc. I may listen 20-30 times before the lyrics make their way into my brain. That's her, and that's me, and that's the way it is.
I'd say I'm more like you in that respect.
It sucks though when I really like a song and then I start listening to the words and they're horrible. -
Peace DArgento,
you seem to know a lot about arhaelogical evidence, is there evidence for any of these prophets existing?
The simple answer is no.
There is no evidence of me existing either. For all you know I could be an 8 year old girl playing on the computer or I could be 100 people sharing this ID. However, this is not the point because by logically looking at the content of my posts, I would hope that people trust that I exist. ;D
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Lobster,
I just want to say that I generally agree with Tay and you.
If I left my children lessons from my life, does it matter whether I existed or not? Those lessons would hold true anyway.
If those lessons are relevant to real-life experiences, then part of their truth is in those experiences. You can't convey those experiences if you were a fictional character that didn't exist.
But I was thinking that if you have to believe that they existed, then you may use what you find from other sources to interpret the quran.
You don't have to unless you are looking to embellish stories to make them entertaining. If you are focused on the lessons learned instead of hero-worship then you don't have to worry about this.
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace Ayman,
I don't want to keep arguing about this since we already agree in the general idea. but just one thing I wanted to say...
If those lessons are relevant to real-life experiences, then part of their truth is in those experiences. You can't convey those experiences if you were a fictional character that didn't exist.
I can't. But someone else certainly can. Someone can make up a character that would convey the message better than his real self.
I wrote an autobiographical short story and I found that it was hard to convey my underlying message or theme while staying true to my actual life. If I could fictionalize it, change some things, it would be much more effective.But the quran doesn't invent characters, it just borrows them from legends and some of the details have been altered to fit the new message. That's how I see it.
To me, I don't have to believe that the person I read about had to be a real person to understand the message. Maybe others do. Maybe that's more helpful to them. I don't think it really matters as long as the true message is understood.
You don't have to unless you are looking to embellish stories to make them entertaining. If you are focused on the lessons learned instead of hero-worship then you don't have to worry about this.
I don't think people would look at outside sources just for embellishment. Maybe they want to know more about the person? But yea, if one wants the lesson in the quran, one has to stick to the quran only.
-
If I could fictionalize it, change some things, it would be much more effective.
true, but does that not also make you a liar? .......... how much the truth is emphasized in the quran
To me, I don't have to believe that the person I read about had to be a real person to understand the message. Maybe others do. Maybe that's more helpful to them. I don't think it really matters as long as the true message is understood.
I agree with this, i believe them to be real persons but we should stop arguing about this and just worry about their message, thats what really matters is following their wonderful messages
-
true, but does that not also make you a liar? .......... how much the truth is emphasized in the quran
It wouldn't make me a liar at all. Unless of course I claim that my made up character is a real person.
I agree with this, i believe them to be real persons but we should stop arguing about this and just worry about their message, thats what really matters is following their wonderful messages
Totally. but the very important point I wanted to make was this (from my earlier posts)
"If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?)."
"if one wants the lesson in the quran, one has to stick to the quran only." -
Unless of course I claim that my made up character is a real person.
okay i see what you are saying
Totally. but the very important point I wanted to make was this (from my earlier posts)
"If you believe the quran's really talking about real people, and what is mentioned in it about them is real, then you still only have to trust (to understand the message) only what is mentioned in that book, otherwise the message may become muddled (is that a word?)."
"if one wants the lesson in the quran, one has to stick to the quran only."i agree, and yes 'muddled' is a word sun
-
Peace all,
It is important that believers believe in the messengers and not differentiate between them.2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers ?We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;? and they said ?We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny.?
4150 Those who rejected God and His messengers, and they want to make a distinction between God and His messengers, and they say ?We believe in some and reject some!?, and they desire to take a path in-between.
4078 And We have sent messengers prior to you. Some of them We have narrated to you, and some We did not narrate to you. And it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a sign except by God?s leave. So, when God's judgment is issued, the matter is decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will be lost.
From a Quranic point of view I have never come across a verse saying that Abraham, Adam, Moses, Jesus etc. were made up. In fact I come across verses that correct common misconceptions about them.
367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nazarene, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of those who set up partners.
4171 O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God?s messenger and the fulfilment of His word to Mary, and Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say ?Trinity.? Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker.
365 ?O people of the Scripture, why do you debate us regarding Abraham when the Torah and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not understand??
2102 And they followed what the devils recited regarding Solomon?s kingship. Solomon did not reject, but it was the devils that rejected by teaching people magic, and teaching them what was sent down on the two angels in Babylon, Haroot and Maroot. They did not teach anyone until they would say ?We are a test, so do not lose faith!? Thus they teach what can separate between a person and his mate; but they cannot harm anyone except by God?s permission. And they learn what harms them and does not benefit them, and they have known that he who purchases such has no place in the Hereafter. Miserable indeed is what they purchased with their souls if only they knew!
There are clear verses that talk about the people of 'Aad, Thamud, and Noah as precursors to our civilization.
149 Did not news come to you of those before you the people of Noah, and ?Aad, and Thamud, and those after them whom none know but God? Their messengers came to them with clarity, but they placed their hands to their mouths and said ?We are rejecting what you have been sent with, and we are in grave doubt as to what you are inviting us to.?
4437 Are they better or the people of Tubba` and those before them? We destroyed them, they were criminals.
769 ?Are you surprised that a reminder has come to you from your Lord through a man from amongst you to warn you? And recall that he made you successors after the people of Noah, and He increased you in status. So recall God?s grace, that you may succeed.?
1160 And they were followed by a curse in this world and on the Day of Judgment, for ?Aad rejected their Lord. There is no more ?Aad, the people of Hud.
1168 It is as if they never lived there. For Thamud rejected their Lord. There is no more Thamud.
2931 And when Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they then said ?We are to destroy the people of such a town, for its people have been wicked.?
2242 And if they deny you, then denied also before them did the people of Noah and ?Aad and Thamud.
2243 And the people of Abraham and the people of Lot.
2244 And the dwellers of Midyan; and Moses was denied. So I granted respite to the rejecters then I took them, how then was My punishment?
2245 So how many a town have We destroyed while it was doing wrong, so that it is lying in ruins with its wells abandoned, and empty palaces.
2246 Have they not roamed the land and had hearts with which to comprehend and ears with which to hear? No, it is not the sight which is blind, but it is the hearts that are in the chests that are blind.896 Did you not see what your Lord did to ?Aad?
897 Irum, with the great columns?
898 The one which was like no other in the land?
899 And Thamud who carved the rocks in the valley?
8910 And Pharaoh with the planks?
8911 They all transgressed in the land.Also these verses here are clearly honouring the past prophets/messengers. Why would the Quran place such honour on people who do not even exist?
1912 ?O John, take the Scripture with confidence.? And We gave him authority while in his youth.
1913 And he had kindness from Us and purity, and he was ever righteous.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient.
1915 And peace be upon him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the Day he is resurrected alive.1941 And recall in the Scripture Abraham; he was a man of faith, a prophet.
1951 And recall in the Scripture Moses; he was loyal, and he was a messenger prophet.
1951 And recall in the Scripture Moses; he was loyal, and he was a messenger prophet.
1952 And We called him from the right side of the mount, and We brought him close to talk with.
1953 And We granted him from Our mercy his brother Aaron as a prophet.
1954 And recall in the Scripture Ishmael; he was truthful to his promise, and he was a messenger prophet.
1955 And he used to instruct his family with the communion and towards betterment, and his Lord was pleased with him.
1956 And recall in the Scripture Enoch; he was a man of truth, a prophet.
1957 And We raised him to a high place.
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down prostrating, and in tears.Be careful about calling God's Revelations tales of the past or a work of fiction.
625 And from them are those who listen to you; and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not believe; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject say ?This is nothing but the tales from the past!?
831 And if Our revelations are recited to them, they say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
1624 And if they are told ?What has your Lord sent down?? They say ?Fairytales of old.?
2383 ?We, as well as our fathers, have been promised this from before. This is nothing but the tales of the ancients.?
255 And they said ?Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening.?
2768 ?We have been promised this, both us and our fathers before. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
4617 And the one who says to his parents ?Enough of you! Are you promising me that I will be resurrected, when the generations who died before me never came back?? While they both will implore God ?Woe to you; believe! For God's promise is the truth.? He would say ?This is nothing but tales from the past!?
6815 When Our revelations are recited to him, he says ?Tales from the past!?
8313 When Our verses are recited to him, he says ?Tales of the ancients!?
May God guide us.
-
"if one wants the lesson in the quran, one has to stick to the quran only."
...
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers ?We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;? and they said ?We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny.?
4136 O you who believe; believe in God and His messenger, and the Scripture which was sent down to His messenger, and the Scripture that was sent before. And whoever rejects God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers, and the Last Day; then he has strayed a far straying.
33 He sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present with it; and He sent down the Torah and the Injeel.
348 And He teaches him the Scripture and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Injeel.
350 ?And authenticating what is present with me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me.?