The Usury.
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Peace again "dotty",
Regarding your claim "making an educated guess" being also gabling is nonsense because the whole life is a guess so to say. Nothing can be said with 100% certainty. Anyone who claims so has not understood the real world. GOD Bless!Peace jonny k,
Ok, I said educated guess and you said educated buy. Anyway, I'm just having a hard time seeing your point I guess. Using money to buy a product is different than using money to buy money.
I do understand that whenever you start a business you are using money to start it... then you hope to earn money from your business. It could be the same, but it just seems so different to me.
Maybe it's me jonny k... my husband has been trying to defend the stock exchange to me for years, but I have not been able to separate stocks from gambling.
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Peace "Dotty",
Peace jonny k,
Ok, I said educated guess and you said educated buy. Anyway, I'm just having a hard time seeing your point I guess. Using money to buy a product is different than using money to buy money.
JK- Man Dotty wht do u think a stock is if not a product? Your buying tht product. Most importantly all prducts which are tradable in the market are technically money coz they can act as exahcnge mediums. GOD Bless!
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Peace again "Dotty",
I do understand that whenever you start a business you are using money to start it... then you hope to earn money from your business. It could be the same, but it just seems so different to me.
JK- And this can actually be much more dangerous than trading certain stocks which you know well since there physical locations and expenses for them now involved for you as well where as stocks are all kept for you electronically.
Maybe it's me jonny k... my husband has been trying to defend the stock exchange to me for years, but I have not been able to separate stocks from gambling.
JK- Maybe now you can. GOD Bless!
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Peace "asperin",
the banks are rich because of the money they hold in savings accounts(thats why sometimes u cant "withdrawal" and ull get your precious interrests after they did what they did to get more money,and give u a small piece as reward for your ignorance),they use that money to make more money with their other companies(scams) and charging you to get a loan makes them even richer......so if u have a house,get yourself a nice safe and keep the money there,dont let them hold a penny from you.
stocks.
putting money to get more money...is that not gambling then what is?
peaceJK- Thts right the banks work with your money. Some do this onestly others dishonestly. But genrealizing tht all banks who take or give interest are bad is wrong. The banks basically are taking your money as loan and hence your given interest too. Ofcourse they have to charge a higher interest than they give you otherwise they would be losing or not making any profit at all so that is just common sense. Infact they are doing all the work of advertising so ppl get agtracted to borrow money. If you can do this by yourself go ahead and do it, then you can charge the same interest as the banks or even more, UNTIL A CERTIN LIMIT SET BY THE GOVERNMENT(infact above tht its Riba), from the borrowers. besides this banks offer yu many other services inclsuind electronic trade and the easy transfer of your money from one place to another. GOD Bless!
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This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying... if you do research and make an educated guess, then it's not gambling. I say that whenever you put up money to make more money... it's gambling. It's far away from putting up money to buy a shop and provide a product for people to buy.
In the stock market... the only purpose is to make money from money. Isn't it? With usury it's the same thing. Using money to make money.
No. Stock trading is simple, it's not usury in any way (though the company might be involved in it). All you are doing is buying a share in the ownership of the company - nothing more. Usually you get a share of the profits, but the thing is, the value only goes up with demand for that stock - when other people want a slice of the pie. I think Jonny_K put it nicely.
Usury on the other hand, instantly creates money - money that does not exist. If people can't keep up and work for it, then it all collapses. In other words, it just forces people to work even harder, and most of the time, that's not a good thing.
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No. Stock trading is simple, it's not usury in any way (though the company might be involved in it). All you are doing is buying a share in the ownership of the company - nothing more. Usually you get a share of the profits, but the thing is, the value only goes up with demand for that stock - when other people want a slice of the pie. I think Jonny_K put it nicely.
Usury on the other hand, instantly creates money - money that does not exist. If people can't keep up and work for it, then it all collapses. In other words, it just forces people to work even harder, and most of the time, that's not a good thing.
Thanks OPF,
You and JK did help me a lot with this issue.
Peace-
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Usury on the other hand, instantly creates money - money that does not exist. If people can't keep up and work for it, then it all collapses. In other words, it just forces people to work even harder, and most of the time, that's not a good thing.
JK- Wht do u mean by the "instant creation of money". Can you please give me an example? GOD Bless!
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JK- Wht do u mean by the "instant creation of money". Can you please give me an example? GOD Bless!
When you say, take a mortgage out on a ?100,000 house, the overall repayment sum will be around ?250,000 after 25 years. Where does this 250k come from? Someone has to work their ass off to get it.
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No. Stock trading is simple, it's not usury in any way (though the company might be involved in it). All you are doing is buying a share in the ownership of the company - nothing more. Usually you get a share of the profits, but the thing is, the value only goes up with demand for that stock - when other people want a slice of the pie. I think Jonny_K put it nicely.
Usury on the other hand, instantly creates money - money that does not exist. If people can't keep up and work for it, then it all collapses. In other words, it just forces people to work even harder, and most of the time, that's not a good thing.
Peace
I think that means if you cannot afford to pay the principal you will be indefinitely charged until you pay them back and the amount they charge is "created" because it wasn't part of the original sum.Al
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Peace
I think that means if you cannot afford to pay the principal you will be indefinitely charged until you pay them back and the amount they charge is "created" because it wasn't part of the original sum.Al
Yes, that's precisely what I meant. You put it better than I could rotfl
For an example as to why usury in this form is evil, look no further than the whole continent of Africa.
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Peace bro "OPF",
When you say, take a mortgage out on a ?100,000 house, the overall repayment sum will be around ?250,000 after 25 years. Where does this 250k come from? Someone has to work their ass off to get it.
JK- But the person knows this AFORETIME that if he doesnt return the money before that itd amount to that much. Its all precalculated. The formula for the amount to be returned is (1+i/100)^n times the mortgage, where i is the interest rate of the currency in %age and n the no of yrs. So the person can check everytime. If the person fails to give the complete payment at any time and decides that he wont be able to pay no more he can cancel it. Then the bank would calculate accordignly. Say he paid for 12 months, 1000 pound per month so thts 12000 he has paid. Now he took a loan of 100,000 and with that the house was bought plus his interest is due and its 5000 pounds. Now the person has the option 1) he can either sell the house himself or 2) let the bak sell it for him. In the latter acse the bank will just try to sell it at 100,000-(12000-5000)=93,000 GBP since then it has your 12000 which fulfills its requirement but youve paid for nothing. So option 1 would be wise and who knows you might sell it for 150,000. I would actually go for that. Be smart. Try real estate arbitrage. Go out and see how much people might be willing to pay for certain houses. Then if your sure make lowest possible option contracts with the owners of those houses so tht they cant sell it themselves once the other party is known and if the other party is willing to pay buy it through mortgage and sell it right off to the other who alreaady agreed to pay. This stragedy too can be done and smart businessmen do it. The loss would be merely the option paid. GOD Bless!
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Peace "aalmaako",
Peace
I think that means if you cannot afford to pay the principal you will be indefinitely charged until you pay them back and the amount they charge is "created" because it wasn't part of the original sum.Al
JK- Suppose a renter of an appartment has to pay 100 GBP monthly. He however doesnt pay for 3 consecutive months. Should the owner only charge 300 GBP after three months time when hes finally able/willing to pay? The answer is NO because the owner of the app cldve worked with the money had it been paid to him on time so he needs to be compensated for tht. The min he cldve made safely is put tht money in the bank and get interest of 5% per annum. Some banks offer monthly interest so thtd be "*100%" which wld be appx .407% per month. So for three months *100% wld have to be added which is appx 1.23% to the first 100 making tht 123 plus same formula with power 2 and then percentage of the 100 for the second month plus the 100 GBP for the 3rd one. Tht wld be more than just 300. GOD Bless!
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Jonny_K, we're assuming it's one of these modern loans where you have to pay extra for paying up early.
The problem is not that the amount payable is unknown because it isn't. The problem is that it makes a void of non-existant money, and someone has to work for that. If there is too much of that, nobody can keep up with the repayments and everything collapses - see Africa for an example. It makes economic slaves out of people, whether or not it is agreed to by both parties. The compounding interest is even worse. In certain situations, the original amount has long been paid, and all that remains is an endless supply of money for the lender in the form of interest. Is the lender earning that money in any way, shape or form? No. Is that money supposed to exist? No, because it's not likely that the borrower has the material goods needed - without that, money is only paper. In Africa, the principal has long been paid off but all those countries are still slaves to the world banks because of the interest.
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Peace all,
I think a lot of people don't have the right concept of how paper money is generated and what it really means. Paper money is generated out of thin air whenever someone borrows money from a bank and is not backed up by any thing of real value like gold or silver. The banks don't really lend you any money of their own. Then they charge you interest on money they never lent ! The government is in on it and has a sneaky pact with the banks and prints the extra paper money whenever a loan is generated. This paper money has no real value. There is still no money to cover for the interest that is being charged. It is a scam and a vicious cycle that will eventually collapse and render all the paper money useless.
Please see the following video for details
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
Sister Dotty,
Buying stock in an ethical company to get percentage of the profits (dividends) is ok but to trade stocks on its value is gambling because the intrinsic value of stocks is PURELY SPECULATIVE and does not depend on how the company is actually performing. That is why even when a company makes a huge profit but falls short of the expected earnings by even a cent, its stock value falls, if previous to the earnings announcement people were speculating that it would exceed or meet the expected earnings.
I think that according to the Qur'aanic principles, any interest is forbidden. Please see the following post by brother Latif
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.msg106771#msg106771
The only thing allowed might be extra amount charged by the lender to meet the decreasing value of paper money with time due to inflation. This is due to generation of extra paper money out of thin air without being backed up by any thing of real value like gold or silver, as explained in the video above. But even this might be wrong because the paper money itself is being generated in a wrong manner. The whole system is corrupted and needs to be entirely revamped.
Any money generated after taking a risk of loss with your own money would be ok. If one lends money to another person and then charges interest, the money generated by the interest would be without any risk and would be forbidden. In the example of renting an apartment to someone, if the tenant does not pay the rent on time, the owner has no right charging the tenant interest on that money because of what profit the owner COULD have made on that money, because then there is no risk.
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Sister Dotty,
Buying stock in an ethical company to get percentage of the profits (dividends) is ok but to trade stocks on its value is gambling because the intrinsic value of stocks is PURELY SPECULATIVE and does not depend on how the company is actually performing. That is why even when a company makes a huge profit but falls short of the expected earnings by even a cent, its stock value falls, if previous to the earnings announcement people were speculating that it would exceed or meet the expected earnings.
This is why I said earlier that MAYBE I can separate stocks from gambling. It's still hard for me.
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Peace bro "OPF",
Jonny_K, we're assuming it's one of these modern loans where you have to pay extra for paying up early.
The problem is not that the amount payable is unknown because it isn't. The problem is that it makes a void of non-existant money, and someone has to work for that. If there is too much of that, nobody can keep up with the repayments and everything collapses - see Africa for an example. It makes economic slaves out of people, whether or not it is agreed to by both parties. The compounding interest is even worse. In certain situations, the original amount has long been paid, and all that remains is an endless supply of money for the lender in the form of interest. Is the lender earning that money in any way, shape or form? No. Is that money supposed to exist? No, because it's not likely that the borrower has the material goods needed - without that, money is only paper. In Africa, the principal has long been paid off but all those countries are still slaves to the world banks because of the interest.
JK- I dont think you got what i was trying to say. Compound Interest is ONLY A NAME given to a payment DUE TO DELAY IN RETURN. Thts why its there. It is absed ont eh concept that TIME IS MONEY which it obviously is. If you dont payback your loan fees on time in case of currencies after a yr then tht means youve now taken your fees as a further loan and you need to pay your "rent" on that too. Is it clear now? GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "OPF",
JK- I dont think you got what i was trying to say. Compound Interest is ONLY A NAME given to a payment DUE TO DELAY IN RETURN. Thts why its there. It is absed ont eh concept that TIME IS MONEY which it obviously is. If you dont payback your loan fees on time in case of currencies after a yr then tht means youve now taken your fees as a further loan and you need to pay your "rent" on that too. Is it clear now? GOD Bless!
Must have gotten lost while reading
I can't find the words, what I mean is interest that will result in a flow of money that should not exist.
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Peace bro "Tanveer",
Buying stock in an ethical company to get percentage of the profits (dividends) is ok but to trade stocks on its value is gambling because the intrinsic value of stocks is PURELY SPECULATIVE and does not depend on how the company is actually performing. That is why even when a company makes a huge profit but falls short of the expected earnings by even a cent, its stock value falls, if previous to the earnings announcement people were speculating that it would exceed or meet the expected earnings.
JK- Ok now we need to define ethical companies. Again this boils down to self responsibility and proper research. Reg speculation theres a certain amount of tht in EVERY APECT of our lives. To give just a simple example when you walk down the stairs in your house you SPECULATE they nobody has altered them or they wernt damaged through rotting from the rpevious day and you continue to run down as you always do. So its everywhere and GOD wants us to USE OUR INTELLIGENCE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE and if we do that trading stocks then thts perfectly fine. GOD Bless!