"We" vs God Alone
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Hi OPF
In the above post, as well as in all my previous ones I wrote exactly what SHM wrote. You remark Very Good post for him, and mock what i typed.
Brother! i am a little confused, confused because i fail to understand '( the reasons, as to what tickled your funny bone?
siki
Don't be offended, I didn't mock anything (intentionally). Remember that I said I was confused? I'm just saying, if God can take 99 names, for whatever reason, why can't he take a royal "We"?
"come on Guys, let the sense prevail."
Shall do.
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Leaders, royalties, or the important personalties , when started using the plural deferential form, their intent was to use it on behalf of other entities, which included in their office/ kingdom/ organisation etc. Like when the pope says , "we will do that" , he means , the Vatican , or when the Queen says/said "we shall,,,,, , " she is declaring on behalf of Monarch.
Actually it is the commoners like you me who have misunderstood, and made it into a" Royal we", whereas, its intended use by personalties is/was exactly like what God is using in Quran ; That is spelling it on behalf of other entities involved.
siki
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Peace,
Everybody check out 812. Yoohee is in present tense and idh does not have to refer to past tense. 5110 is showing lo in it's future capacity like idhaa, or its capacity as in 'so, then' which is seen more clearly in 1747. Just to note even idhan and idhaa can be used interchangeable see the use of idha in 1518(wa maa kaanoo idhan mundhareena) and 17201 (fa idhaa hum mubsiroona)
Godbless,
Anwar
You mean verses 158 and 7201(sorry for the late notice. I just started reading this thread today after an absence of more than a week).
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Thanks Samia,
Here it goes again
Everybody check out 812. Yoohee is in present tense and idh does not have to refer to past tense. 5110 is showing lo in it's future capacity like idhaa, or its capacity as in 'so, then' which is seen more clearly in 1747. Just to note even idhan and idhaa can be used interchangeable see the use of idha in 158(wa maa kaanoo idhan mundhareena) and 7201 (fa idhaa hum mubsiroona)
Godbless,
Anwar -
Here's something that might help.
050.016
YUSUFALI It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
PICKTHAL We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
SHAKIR And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein.050.017
YUSUFALI Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.
PICKTHAL When the two Receivers receive (him), seated on the right hand and on the left,
SHAKIR When the two receivers receive, sitting on the right and on the left.050.018
YUSUFALI Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).
PICKTHAL He uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready.
SHAKIR He utters not a word but there is by him a watcher at hand.050.019
YUSUFALI And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes) "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"
PICKTHAL And the agony of death cometh in truth. (And it is said unto him) This is that which thou wast wont to shun.
SHAKIR And the stupor of death will come in truth; that is what you were trying to escape. -
Peace everyone,
1984 - 1986
Yusuf Ali Translation
So make no haste against them, for We but count out to them a (limited) number (of days).
The day We shall gather the righteous to (God) Most Gracious, like a band presented before a king for honours,
And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water, -Pickthall Translation
So make no haste against them (O Muhammad). We do but number unto them a sum (of days).
On the day when We shall gather the righteous unto the Beneficent, a goodly company.
And drive the guilty unto hell, a weary herd,Freeminds Translation
So do not be impatient; for We are preparing for them a preparation.
The Day We gather the righteous to the Almighty as a delegation.
And We drive the criminals to Hell as a herd. -
20-11 to 20-23
When he came to it, he was called, "O, Moses.
"I am your Lord; remove your sandals. You are in the sacred valley, Tuwa.
"I have chosen you, so listen to what is being revealed.
"I am GOD; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) to remember Me.
"The Hour (end of the world) is surely coming; I will keep it almost hidden, for each soul must be paid for its works.
"Do not be diverted therefrom by those who do not believe in it - those who pursue their own opinions - lest you fall.
"What is this in your right hand, Moses?"
He said, "This is my staff. I lean on it, herd my sheep with it, and I use it for other purposes."
He said, "Throw it down, Moses."
He threw it down, whereupon it turned into a moving serpent.
He said, "Pick it up; do not be afraid. We will return it to its original state.
"And hold your hand under your wing; it will come out white without a blemish; another proof."We thus show you some of our great portents.
Any comments on the above?
See, how the speech changes from , "I" to "He" and then to "We"?
what i think , "This "I "part is direct revelation from lord straight to Mohammad's heart, bypassing all intermediary/controllers
Then the speech is taken over by someone else, may be "Gabriel", and that is why at the end it converts to a we.
siki
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Sikki Peace,
You said
There is no Royal we in God,s language.
This worries me brother. Do you beileve that Classical Arabic is God's language? Or that the Classical Arabic language in the Quran is God's langauge? Classical Arabic is a human language and the Quran is God's message revealed in this very human language. So, do you really believe that Classical Arabic is God's language? Please don't think this, this is the cause of much trouble and misunderstanding amongst Muslims. The message is God's not the language.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Sikki Peace,
You said
This worries me brother. Do you beileve that Classical Arabic is God's language? Or that the Classical Arabic language in the Quran is God's langauge? Classical Arabic is a human language and the Quran is God's message revealed in this very human language. So, do you really believe that Classical Arabic is God's language? Please don't think this, this is the cause of much trouble and misunderstanding amongst Muslims. The message is God's not the language.Godbless,
AnwarI agree with you and there is no doubt regarding the issue, i admit, that i worded the sentence casually. However i maintain that Quran can not have a Royal we.
siki
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selam
1985 The Day We gather the righteous to the Almighty as a delegation.
well that says it all.
there is one thing still bothering me
1850 And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the wicked is the substitute!1851 I did not make them witness the creation of heavens and Earth, nor the creation of themselves. Nor do I take the misleaders as helpers.
who was not the witness? angels or satan?
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peace nerspi
i think 1851 is referring to the just the jinns, watch the wording carefully
1850 And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the wicked is the substitute!
1851 I did not make them (satan and his progeny) witness the creation of heavens and Earth, nor the creation of themselves. Nor do I take the misleaders as helpers.
the misleaders would be referring to the evil ones thus 'angels' excluded.
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Peace,
I looked in Muheetul-Muheeti under Jinn and it has alot of meanings (even jannatun does)
Jannatun (from jannatul-laili) cover/darkeness
Jinnun dhulmatun (darkness), ikhtilaatudhalaami(covering/coming of darkness), most (mu&thamanaasi=jinnunaasi (most people).Al-jinnu the angels (al-malaa'ikatu) just like Jinnatun (ka-jinnatin)
As it concerns the youth or besides the youth (ashabaabu wa ghairuhu) it means the first(or best) and the most recent/youngest (awwaluhu wa hidthaanuhu(plural of hadeeth meaning recent/new))
As it concerns plants it's flowers or its blossoms (wa anabtu zahruhu wa nawruhu).
Jannatun a garden with palms and trees
the expression laa jinna = laa khafaa'a (there's not hiding (it), nothing hidden)
and baitujinnin= below a snowy mountain and the description is jinaaneeyun.Strangely enough I didn't read anything about spirits.
Godbless,
Anwar -
In Urdu language too "I" and "We" is used by one person, when giving command, instructions, orders or telling about some thing big done by him. Some people commonly use "We" instead of "I" even in ordinary conversation.
Brother! i recommend , that you go through the whole thread.(for royal we)
siki
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Just to revisit this thread, can it be said that if the quran uses its own grammatical constructs, that it is wrong?
In 7156, either the case is made for a trinity, or polytheism, or simply, there is a royal We in use. Since when did other books restrict quranic grammar?
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Just to revisit this thread, can it be said that if the quran uses its own grammatical constructs, that it is wrong?
In 7156, either the case is made for a trinity, or polytheism, or simply, there is a royal We in use. Since when did other books restrict quranic grammar?
The quraan was revealed in a spoken language. Spoken Arabic does not respect grammar.
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The quraan was revealed in a spoken language. Spoken Arabic does not respect grammar.
The quran itself disagrees with that? I.e. in 121-2, 413. But more importantly, 4612 is related to the topic, mentioning Moses directly and again, describes it as a book, not just a recital. Evidently it is primarily a book.
So why the hubbub, either way? You have one God equated with a plural, and your answer is that it doesn't follow grammar, why the different case for the other instances of "We" or "Our"?