7 heavens

[unknownuser]

Salaam bro Mazhar,

Thank you for this excellent understanding.

It may please be noted that Quran e Majeed has never said that the sky of the earth is adorned with stars.

In na_ zay yan nas sama_ ad dun ya_ bizinatinil kawa_kib
We have adorned the lower sky with Planets. {3706}

Root can never be translated as ?star? since Quran e Majeed has made a clear distinction between the celestial bodies. First time this word occurs in 676
Falamma_ janna 'alaihil lailu ra'a_ kaukaba_(n)

Here one thing has been made conspicuous ?darkness of the night? and he saw one . At night there are numerous stars visible to naked eye. Quran e Majeed came in 7th century but people have known the distinction between stars and planets from couple of centuries BC.The basic difference between both, as we know, is that stars emit light but planets don?t have own light, they reflect light. How both could have same meanings and termed as stars?

After sun and moon, planet Venus is the mist shining object. It is visible on sky three hours before sunrise and for three hours after sunset. After these three object planet Jupiter is the brightest object. It is three times brighter than the brightest star Sirius. Because of its prominence, the Romans had given it name Jupiter after the name of their bigger god, idol.

Al Qurtabi says
Al Jalalain says

Who was right?
The difference between Venus and Jupiter is that Venus after three hours disappears and is not visible till three hours before sunset. Jupiter, when it is visible from earth, does not disappear but remains visible. And Quran e Majeed tells that the planet which was seen by Ibrahim {Peace is upon him} had then disappeared {} from their sight. Thus it is clear that he had pointed towards Venus after quite some time of sunset but within three hours of the sunset.

Quran has drawn a vivid distinction between planets and stars. It says
Wa huwal lazi ja'ala lakumun nuju_ma litahtadu_ biha_ fi zulumatil barri wal bahr(i), qad fassalnal a_ya_ti liqaumiy ya'lamu_n(a).
Allah is one who has appointed for you stars so that you may guide/find direction yourselves with their help through the dark {unmarked} spaces of land and sea We have made distinct Our Ayat so that people may know/get informed. {697}
wa bin najmi hum yahtadu_n(a).
And with one star they get the direction/destination/guidance.{Ref 1616}

Quran has never said that people can get guidance/direction from Kwakib, Planets. And neither said that the sky of earth is adorned with Najoom, stars.

Distinction between them is also visible from their end.
Wa idzal kawa_kibun tatsarat
Wa idzal biha_ru fuj jirat {Ref 8202-03}

?un tatsarat? and ?fuj jirat? have the commonality of ?scatter?. Both reflect light and absorb light.

And the end of Stars is this
Wa idzan nuju_mun kadarat
When the stars fall losing their luster/light; {Ref 8102}

Fa iza nuju_mu tumisat
Wa izal jiba_lu nusifat
Then when the stars become scattered;
When the mountains are scattered (to the winds) as dust ;{ Ref 77 08, 10}

Faka_nat haba_ am mun bats sa_
{Mountains} Becoming dust/Gases scattered {Ref 5610}
And we know stars are massive shining sphere of hot gas {dust like}.

As regards Harun Yahya?s opinion
?The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers. (Layers of Atmosphere-Miracles of Quran-Harun Yahya)

It is not correct. It amounts to negating the vastness of words/concepts of Arabic Language and also negates what Quran calls about its Ayat ??.
We are not yet aware of the vastness of skies and will never be able to conceive/perceive it since it is expanding all the time. But Quran has given details of our solar system in an elaborate manner. When one sky has that vastness how can this word be used for seven layers of atmosphere?
Perhaps seven layers of atmosphere are mentioned here
Wa laqad halaqnal insa_na min sula_latim min tin
Sum ma jaalna_hu nutfaran fi qara_rim makin
Sum ma halaqnan nutfata alaqatan fahalaqnal alaqata mudgatan fahalaqnal mudgata iza_man fa kasaunal iza_ma lahma_ sum ma ansana_hu halqan a_har fataba_rakal la_hu ahsanul ha_liqin
Sum ma in nakum bada za_lika lamay yitu_n
Sum ma in nakum yaumal qiya_mati tubasu_n
Wa laqad halaqna_ fauqakum saba tara_iq wa ma_ kun na_ anil halqi ga_filin
And in the past We had made above you seven tracts; and We are never unmindful of (safety of our) Creation {2312-16}

Wa banaina_ fauqakum saban syida_da_
And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments {Ref 7812}

And perhaps reason for these seven layers is told in the next verse
Wa ja'alna_ sira_jaw wah ha_ja_

Nature of sun is explained by the word wah ha_ja. This is dangerous. These seven layers protect from this feature of the sun.
May Allah guide us all.

[siki]

Ya ! i agree too, kokab is not a meteor but a planet, this further endorses brother Edip's view of 11 planets in solar system as per yousaf's dream.

12-4 Recall that Joseph said to his father, "O my father, I saw eleven planets (kokabaa, not Najoom), and the sun, and the moon; I saw them prostrating before me

siki

[ILisa]

It may please be noted that Quran e Majeed has never said that the sky of the earth is adorned with stars.

In na_ zay yan nas sama_ ad dun ya_ bizinatinil kawa_kib
We have adorned the lower sky with Planets. {3706}

Peace Mazhar,

Great work! Thank you for sharing it with us. sun

This makes a big difference in how we can look into this subject. In fact, it makes me wonder, is there a relationship between Venus as described in AQ and times that we are to connect with God??

God bless!

[Samia]

Excellent work Mazhar. God bless you

[Mazhar]

Thanks sisters and brothers for encouragement.

Quran says
Wa huwal lazi ja'ala lakumun nuju_ma litahtadu_ biha_ fi zulumatil barri wal bahr(i), qad fassalnal a_ya_ti liqaumiy ya'lamu_n(a).
Allah is one who has appointed for you stars so that you may guide/find direction yourselves with their help through the dark {unmarked} spaces of land and sea We have made distinct Our Ayat so that people may know/get informed. {697}
wa bin najmi hum yahtadu_n(a).
And with one star they get the direction/destination/guidance.{Ref 1616}

While studying Quran e Majeed to find the facts/information/data about the Universe {}and writing them down under the caption ?Quran in the 21st Century?, the above two verses caused me sadistic pleasure since someone inspired that I have caught a contradiction in Quran. At one place it has used plural ?? who give direction and in the second it uses single star ??. But thanks to Allah, it immediately came to mind that should I refuse even if I could not comprehend it.

The beauty of Quran is that it was initially addressing the desert men and was meant for the posterity of humanity in time and space. The statement was comprehensively understandable to the desert men, since more than two stars serve as pointers and one star, pole/north star is the one with which direction is determined.

And today we can more appreciate and enjoy the beauty and precision of Quran when we know that even ?Pole/North Star? is not the one but many in the passage of time. Today Pole Star is Polaris. But in 7500 there will be some other star as Pole Star; and in 15000 there will still be another one and after 9000 years today?s Pole Star Polaris will again be the North/Pole Star.
Quote with thanks from Encarta
?North Star or Polestar, conspicuous star in the northern hemisphere, located closest to the point toward which the axis of the earth is directed, thus roughly marking the location of the north celestial pole. A polestar has been used by navigators throughout recorded history for charting navigation routes and is still used for determining true azimuth and astronomic latitude. The positions of the celestial poles change as the earth's axis moves with the earth's precessional motion (see Ecliptic), and as the north celestial pole assumes different positions relative to the constellations, different stars become the North Star.
Big Dipper, common name applied to a conspicuous constellation in the northern celestial hemisphere, near the North Pole. It was known to the ancient Greeks as the Bear and the Wagon and to the Romans as Ursa Major (the Great Bear) and Septentriones (Seven Plowing Oxen). The seven brightest stars of the constellation form the easily identified outline of a giant dipper. In Europe, the pattern is known as the Plow, Charles's (Charlemagne's) Wain, and the Wagon; among the Hindus, it represents the seven rishis, or holy ancient sages. Of the seven stars constituting the Big Dipper, six are of the second magnitude and one is of the third magnitude. Two of the second-magnitude stars, alpha (a) and beta (?) Ursa Major, which form the outer edge of the bowl, point directly to the North Star, or Polaris, and hence are called the Pointers?

Now consider the similarity between the Messengers and Pointers. All of them pointed towards only one source for guidance, the Book of Allah. Messengers, like the North Star kept changing in time and space, but the location of point of guidance remained the same. If a group of people differs in the unmarked areas of earth and waters about the direction, which will come to their guidance? North Pole, none else. Anyone who takes it as a guide to know the right direction will find the path and the one who refuses to take it as a guide shall remain wandering. This suggests Quran Alone if one wishes to reach the destination safe and sound. But this is the dilemma of humanity that while they know vividly that there cannot be two sources of guidance, yet run away from the Book to meet their own desires and choices in life.
For Urdu readers there is a topic on my website ?What is Hidayat? Where can we find it?? ??Quran e Majeed is Al Huda and Hadi {The Guide}? on this link http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_6/20/slides/1.html

[unknownuser]

Peace siki,

Ya ! i agree too, kokab is not a meteor but a planet, this further endorses brother Edip's view of 11 planets in solar system as per yousaf's dream.

12-4 Recall that Joseph said to his father, "O my father, I saw eleven planets (kokabaa, not Najoom), and the sun, and the moon; I saw them prostrating before me

siki

The dream was a metaphor (parents and brothers bowing) see verses 125 and 12100?

12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.

---

1246 "O Joseph!" (he said) "O man of truth! Expound to us (the dream) of SEVEN fat kine whom SEVEN lean ones devour, and of SEVEN green ears of corn and (SEVEN) others withered that I may return to the people, and that they may understand."

Alam taraw kayfa khalaqa Allahu sabAAa samawatin tibaqan
7115 "'See ye not how Allah has created the SEVEN heavens one above another,

WajaAAala alqamara feehinna nooran wajaAAala alshshamsa sirajan
7116 "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

Says look at the sky and see the SEVEN HEAVENS (metaphoric for plentiful grandeur).

http//www.vbcsanrafael.com/images/84/Sun%20and%20Moon%20at%20North%20Pole.jpg

Peace sun

[Mazhar]

12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.{Nun de plume}

What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.

My little understanding of Arabic notwithstanding, may I suggest that the translation and perception being drawn from it do not go along with the words used in the verse. 11 brothers were not taken to the throne. Only father and mother were taken up the throne. Two in Arabic does not make plural. For plural there has to be more than two. And statement of Quran is this
Wa rafa'a abawaihi 'alal 'arsyi wa kharru_ lahu_ sujjada_(n),
?And Yousaf took his father and mother upwards to throne; and they all fell into Sajda for Him {Allah mentioned immediately before it by Yousaf in 1299}?

Brothers have not been taken to the throne. They have not performed Sajda. Yet kharru has been used, it is plural. If only father and mother would have went into Sajda before Yousaf {peace is upon him} this word could not be used. The people who went to Sajda on the throne are more than two. The third one is Yousalf {Peace is upon him}. Yousaf took/accompanied his father and mother to the throne. When all three reached up on the throne they three fell for Allah into Sajda.

The only difference between the ?Sajda? of everything in Universe and that of human beings is kharru_ and touching their forehead on ground.

[siki]

Peace siki,

The dream was a metaphor (parents and brothers bowing) see verses 125 and 12100?

12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.

---

peace NUN

No body is doubting the above understanding for yousaf, but what i am trying to say is, "This points towards another important message from almighty to us humans as well, which is;

Planets are 12.

peace

siki

[siki]

What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.

My little understanding of Arabic notwithstanding, may I suggest that the translation and perception being drawn from it do not go along with the words used in the verse. 11 brothers were not taken to the throne. Only father and mother were taken up the throne. Two in Arabic does not make plural. For plural there has to be more than two. And statement of Quran is this
Wa rafa'a abawaihi 'alal 'arsyi wa kharru_ lahu_ sujjada_(n),
And Yousaf took his father and mother upwards to throne; and they all fell into Sajda for Him {Allah mentioned immediately before it by Yousaf in 1299}

Brothers have not been taken to the throne. They have not performed Sajda. Yet kharru has been used, it is plural. If only father and mother would have went into Sajda before Yousaf {peace is upon him} this word could not be used. The people who went to Sajda on the throne are more than two. The third one is Yousalf {Peace is upon him}. Yousaf took/accompanied his father and mother to the throne. When all three reached up on the throne they three fell for Allah into Sajda.

The only difference between the Sajda of everything in Universe and that of human beings is kharru_ and touching their forehead on ground.

yes Seems logical to me. Samia ! any opinions ?

siki

[unknownuser]

What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.

YES the words of Allah?

124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"

125 Said (the father) "My (dear) little son! relate not thy vision to thy brothers, lest they concoct a plot against thee for Satan is to man an avowed enemy!

Why not tell his brothers?

1299 Then when they entered the presence of Joseph, he provided a home for his parents with himself, and said "Enter ye Egypt (all) in safety if it please Allah."

12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Qur?an says earlier vision in 124 was fulfilled thus THEY above implies ALL!

Peace siki,

No body is doubting the above understanding for yousaf, but what i am trying to say is, "This points towards another important message from almighty to us humans as well, which is;

Planets are 12.

We can?t go by that since there are numerous asteroids, comets, and perhaps billions of other planets in our universe and remember Pluto was relegated to another rock.

Peace

[Mazhar]

But who are ALL. On the stage there are three persons including Yousaf {peace is upon him}. Do you mean the whole audience before the throne went into Sajda for him?

[unknownuser]

But who are ALL. On the stage there are three persons including Yousaf {peace is upon him}. Do you mean the whole audience before the throne went into Sajda for him?

For the vision to be fulfilled at least 11 plus 2 would have to prostrate themselves?

124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"

More would not cause a contradiction since above would be a subset thus vision fulfilled.

[Samia]

What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.

My little understanding of Arabic notwithstanding, may I suggest that the translation and perception being drawn from it do not go along with the words used in the verse. 11 brothers were not taken to the throne. Only father and mother were taken up the throne. Two in Arabic does not make plural. For plural there has to be more than two. And statement of Quran is this
Wa rafa'a abawaihi 'alal 'arsyi wa kharru_ lahu_ sujjada_(n),
?And Yousaf took his father and mother upwards to throne; and they all fell into Sajda for Him {Allah mentioned immediately before it by Yousaf in 1299}?

A plural verb following dual subject is not uncommon

499 " " " wa'in Taa'ifataani minal mu'mineenaq tataluu..." and if two groups among the believers fight each other"

[Mazhar]

Sister,
But Taa'ifataani comprises of a group of people. This does not satisfy me, since both situations are different. Yousaf is accompanying his parents; did they fell before him immediately after he took them to throne?

[Mazhar]

?124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
More would not cause a contradiction since above would be a subset thus vision fulfilled? .{Nun de plume}

Again this is not what Yousaf {peace is upon him} said to his father and quoted by Allah.
We are not looking at the words/sentence uttered by Yousaf {Peace is upon him} rather listening to the perception of someone else.

Iz qa_la ya_sufu li abihi ya_ abati inni ra'aitu ahada'asyara kaukabaw wasy syamsa wal qamara
When Yousaf said to his father Dad, I keep seeing eleven planets, and son and moon.
I see them turning like those who bend, come nearer to ground.
{Yousaf was on ground}
If is being taken here then ?I see them for me like those who bend, come nearer to ground?

Active participle, plural, masculine. Those who bend themselves to ground, lowly, humble, submissive {for these objects prostrating and putting their forehead on ground is never said and perceived}
Presence of this word perhaps needs attention/analysis.
We in routine translate it ?for me?. Is it correct, sister Samia? Can?t it be considered here from ? ??
fal yastajibu_li
{Ref 2.186 }
YUSUFALI Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call,
PICKTHAL So let them hear My call
Can we accept this translation as the words of Allah? Certainly not. By any stretch of imagination yastajibu cannot mean hearing, listening. Its root is ? ? the basic meaning of which is to make a hole, tear from the main body, perforate, pierce, to cut.
Somewhere I had said that even individual words of Quran are proven scientific facts what to say of its complete statement. Just see this word. What we do when we answer? For answering somebody we have to ?physically? cut data from the memory and then respond to him via chest.

The word ?sajda? has the concept of coming nearer. wasjud waqtarib
fall down in Sajda and get nearer! {Please perform Sajda}

And what was the outcome of this dream? Yousaf {peace is upon him} said
wa ja_'a bikum minal badwi

His father, mother and 11 brothers had come near to him. Eleven planets, sun and moon turning like those who bend to earth to come closer.

One thing need to be noticed that in dreams nothing can be seen which do not exist somewhere in the Universe. Messenger has used the word which means seeing with eyes. Seeing and perception cannot be there unless the thing exists somewhere. Excluding earth 11 planets in our solar system is a fact. Sooner or later we will see and know them, perhaps courtesy NASA.

[unknownuser]

"One thing need to be noticed that in dreams nothing can be seen which do not exist somewhere in the Universe. Messenger has used the word which means seeing with eyes. Seeing and perception cannot be there unless the thing exists somewhere."

Are you sure? What if I dreamt of an invisible pink unicorn?

[Samia]

Sister,
But Taa'ifataani comprises of a group of people. This does not satisfy me, since both situations are different. Yousaf is accompanying his parents; did they fell before him immediately after he took them to throne?

Maybe I should have continued in the verse, because we are talking about "dual", a grammatical concept, and it does not matter what it is composed of as long as these are "two" things

"wa 'in Taa'fataani minal mu'mineenaq tataluu faSliHuu bainahumaa, fa'in Taghat iHdaahumaa 3alal ukhraa faqaatiluu tilkal lati tabghaa.."

What's important is, no matter how you analyse the "Taa'ifa", the verse is treating it as a singular noun "iHdaahumaa one of the two"; "alukhraa the other one".

Grammatically, if you are speaking of a country, you wont treat it as plural because it has millions of people.

What I want to say is, don't build your understanding on this grammatical concept, because it is not strictly followed in the qur'aan.

[unknownuser]

One thing need to be noticed that in dreams nothing can be seen which do not exist somewhere in the Universe. Messenger has used the word which means seeing with eyes. Seeing and perception cannot be there unless the thing exists somewhere. Excluding earth 11 planets in our solar system is a fact. Sooner or later we will see and know them, perhaps courtesy NASA.

Dreams had nothing to do with sun, moon, and planets nor the SEVEN cows anything to do with ?real? skinny cows devouring fat cows somewhere in the universe.

Rabbi qad ataytanee mina almulki waAAallamtanee min taweeli alahadeethi fatira alssamawati waalardi anta waliyyee fee alddunya waalakhirati tawaffanee musliman waalhiqnee bialssaliheena
12101 "O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of DREAMS and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."

If dreams were all to be taken as literal then ability to interpret would not be God?s gift.

[Samia]

Iz qa_la ya_sufu li abihi ya_ abati inni ra'aitu ahada'asyara kaukabaw wasy syamsa wal qamara
When Yousaf said to his father Dad, I keep seeing eleven planets, and son and moon.
I see them turning like those who bend, come nearer to ground.
{Yousaf was on ground}
If is being taken here then ?I see them for me like those who bend, come nearer to ground?

Active participle, plural, masculine. Those who bend themselves to ground, lowly, humble, submissive {for these objects prostrating and putting their forehead on ground is never said and perceived}
Presence of this word perhaps needs attention/analysis.
We in routine translate it ?for me?. Is it correct, sister Samia? Can?t it be considered here from ? ??
fal yastajibu_li
{Ref 2.186 }
YUSUFALI Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call,
PICKTHAL So let them hear My call
Can we accept this translation as the words of Allah? Certainly not. By any stretch of imagination yastajibu cannot mean hearing, listening. Its root is ? ? the basic meaning of which is to make a hole, tear from the main body, perforate, pierce, to cut.

1. The preposition as in is part of the verb "sajada". I do not think it means "prostrating", but maybe "submissive",i.e he could easily move them for example. If you want to attach the preposition to the verb "ra'aa", you will need to add to the Arabic what you added to the English "like".

2. fal yastajeebuu (this verb also needs the preposition ) Form X of the root/verb ja wa ba, which, as you correctly mentioned, means to tear from the main body. It means "to respond", since the answer/response is part or connected to the question/command, but is cut from it. To explain this God is asking His subjects to call upon Him. Their response will be "to call upon Him".

Please note that I am just explaining linguistic parts, and not responding to the interpretation. I am watching the interpretation which I find quite interesting so far.

[Mazhar]

"Are you sure? What if I dreamt of an invisible pink unicorn?"{OPF}

Brother,

The day you see it, even white will no more be a myth; it will be a reality. But please don't use some drug; otherwise it will not be dream but hullucination or "mental communication".