7 heavens
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What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.
YES the words of Allah?
124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
125 Said (the father) "My (dear) little son! relate not thy vision to thy brothers, lest they concoct a plot against thee for Satan is to man an avowed enemy!
Why not tell his brothers?
1299 Then when they entered the presence of Joseph, he provided a home for his parents with himself, and said "Enter ye Egypt (all) in safety if it please Allah."
12100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Qur?an says earlier vision in 124 was fulfilled thus THEY above implies ALL!
Peace siki,
No body is doubting the above understanding for yousaf, but what i am trying to say is, "This points towards another important message from almighty to us humans as well, which is;
Planets are 12.
We can?t go by that since there are numerous asteroids, comets, and perhaps billions of other planets in our universe and remember Pluto was relegated to another rock.
Peace
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But who are ALL. On the stage there are three persons including Yousaf {peace is upon him}. Do you mean the whole audience before the throne went into Sajda for him?
For the vision to be fulfilled at least 11 plus 2 would have to prostrate themselves?
124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
More would not cause a contradiction since above would be a subset thus vision fulfilled.
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What has been said is the statement and perception of the translator; not the words of Allah.
My little understanding of Arabic notwithstanding, may I suggest that the translation and perception being drawn from it do not go along with the words used in the verse. 11 brothers were not taken to the throne. Only father and mother were taken up the throne. Two in Arabic does not make plural. For plural there has to be more than two. And statement of Quran is this
Wa rafa'a abawaihi 'alal 'arsyi wa kharru_ lahu_ sujjada_(n),
?And Yousaf took his father and mother upwards to throne; and they all fell into Sajda for Him {Allah mentioned immediately before it by Yousaf in 1299}?A plural verb following dual subject is not uncommon
499 " " " wa'in Taa'ifataani minal mu'mineenaq tataluu..." and if two groups among the believers fight each other"
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?124 Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
More would not cause a contradiction since above would be a subset thus vision fulfilled? .{Nun de plume}Again this is not what Yousaf {peace is upon him} said to his father and quoted by Allah.
We are not looking at the words/sentence uttered by Yousaf {Peace is upon him} rather listening to the perception of someone else.Iz qa_la ya_sufu li abihi ya_ abati inni ra'aitu ahada'asyara kaukabaw wasy syamsa wal qamara
When Yousaf said to his father Dad, I keep seeing eleven planets, and son and moon.
I see them turning like those who bend, come nearer to ground.
{Yousaf was on ground}
If is being taken here then ?I see them for me like those who bend, come nearer to ground?Active participle, plural, masculine. Those who bend themselves to ground, lowly, humble, submissive {for these objects prostrating and putting their forehead on ground is never said and perceived}
Presence of this word perhaps needs attention/analysis.
We in routine translate it ?for me?. Is it correct, sister Samia? Can?t it be considered here from ? ??
fal yastajibu_li
{Ref 2.186 }
YUSUFALI Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call,
PICKTHAL So let them hear My call
Can we accept this translation as the words of Allah? Certainly not. By any stretch of imagination yastajibu cannot mean hearing, listening. Its root is ? ? the basic meaning of which is to make a hole, tear from the main body, perforate, pierce, to cut.
Somewhere I had said that even individual words of Quran are proven scientific facts what to say of its complete statement. Just see this word. What we do when we answer? For answering somebody we have to ?physically? cut data from the memory and then respond to him via chest.The word ?sajda? has the concept of coming nearer. wasjud waqtarib
fall down in Sajda and get nearer! {Please perform Sajda}And what was the outcome of this dream? Yousaf {peace is upon him} said
wa ja_'a bikum minal badwiHis father, mother and 11 brothers had come near to him. Eleven planets, sun and moon turning like those who bend to earth to come closer.
One thing need to be noticed that in dreams nothing can be seen which do not exist somewhere in the Universe. Messenger has used the word which means seeing with eyes. Seeing and perception cannot be there unless the thing exists somewhere. Excluding earth 11 planets in our solar system is a fact. Sooner or later we will see and know them, perhaps courtesy NASA.
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"One thing need to be noticed that in dreams nothing can be seen which do not exist somewhere in the Universe. Messenger has used the word which means seeing with eyes. Seeing and perception cannot be there unless the thing exists somewhere."
Are you sure? What if I dreamt of an invisible pink unicorn?
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Sister,
But Taa'ifataani comprises of a group of people. This does not satisfy me, since both situations are different. Yousaf is accompanying his parents; did they fell before him immediately after he took them to throne?Maybe I should have continued in the verse, because we are talking about "dual", a grammatical concept, and it does not matter what it is composed of as long as these are "two" things
"wa 'in Taa'fataani minal mu'mineenaq tataluu faSliHuu bainahumaa, fa'in Taghat iHdaahumaa 3alal ukhraa faqaatiluu tilkal lati tabghaa.."
What's important is, no matter how you analyse the "Taa'ifa", the verse is treating it as a singular noun "iHdaahumaa one of the two"; "alukhraa the other one".
Grammatically, if you are speaking of a country, you wont treat it as plural because it has millions of people.
What I want to say is, don't build your understanding on this grammatical concept, because it is not strictly followed in the qur'aan.
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One thing need to be noticed that in dreams nothing can be seen which do not exist somewhere in the Universe. Messenger has used the word which means seeing with eyes. Seeing and perception cannot be there unless the thing exists somewhere. Excluding earth 11 planets in our solar system is a fact. Sooner or later we will see and know them, perhaps courtesy NASA.
Dreams had nothing to do with sun, moon, and planets nor the SEVEN cows anything to do with ?real? skinny cows devouring fat cows somewhere in the universe.
Rabbi qad ataytanee mina almulki waAAallamtanee min taweeli alahadeethi fatira alssamawati waalardi anta waliyyee fee alddunya waalakhirati tawaffanee musliman waalhiqnee bialssaliheena
12101 "O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of DREAMS and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."If dreams were all to be taken as literal then ability to interpret would not be God?s gift.
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Iz qa_la ya_sufu li abihi ya_ abati inni ra'aitu ahada'asyara kaukabaw wasy syamsa wal qamara
When Yousaf said to his father Dad, I keep seeing eleven planets, and son and moon.
I see them turning like those who bend, come nearer to ground.
{Yousaf was on ground}
If is being taken here then ?I see them for me like those who bend, come nearer to ground?Active participle, plural, masculine. Those who bend themselves to ground, lowly, humble, submissive {for these objects prostrating and putting their forehead on ground is never said and perceived}
Presence of this word perhaps needs attention/analysis.
We in routine translate it ?for me?. Is it correct, sister Samia? Can?t it be considered here from ? ??
fal yastajibu_li
{Ref 2.186 }
YUSUFALI Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call,
PICKTHAL So let them hear My call
Can we accept this translation as the words of Allah? Certainly not. By any stretch of imagination yastajibu cannot mean hearing, listening. Its root is ? ? the basic meaning of which is to make a hole, tear from the main body, perforate, pierce, to cut.-
The preposition as in is part of the verb "sajada". I do not think it means "prostrating", but maybe "submissive",i.e he could easily move them for example. If you want to attach the preposition to the verb "ra'aa", you will need to add to the Arabic what you added to the English "like".
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fal yastajeebuu (this verb also needs the preposition ) Form X of the root/verb ja wa ba, which, as you correctly mentioned, means to tear from the main body. It means "to respond", since the answer/response is part or connected to the question/command, but is cut from it. To explain this God is asking His subjects to call upon Him. Their response will be "to call upon Him".
Please note that I am just explaining linguistic parts, and not responding to the interpretation. I am watching the interpretation which I find quite interesting so far.
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"Are you sure? What if I dreamt of an invisible pink unicorn?"{OPF}
Brother,
The day you see it, even white will no more be a myth; it will be a reality. But please don't use some drug; otherwise it will not be dream but hullucination or "mental communication".
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Salaam Mazhar,
The only difference between the ?Sajda? of everything in Universe and that of human beings is kharru_ and touching their forehead on ground.
This is not relevant to the current discussion but since you are stating it as a fact, I wanted to point out that according to the Qur'aan, the physical aspect of "sujood" of humans to The God is supposed to be to the chin, not forehead
17107 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall (yakhirroona) to their chins (lilazqaan) prostrating."
17108 And they say "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
17109 And they fall (yakhirroona) to their chins (lilazqaan) crying, and it increases them in humility.The word used for forehead in the Qur'aan is "jabeen" (37103, 935), and is never used in the context of "sujood".
Please note that the Qur'aanic prostration is TO/WITH (LI) the chin and not UPON (3ALAA) the chin, so all that is required in the physical aspect of "sujood" to The God is to bring the chin nearer to the ground. Of course the mental aspect of "obedience" to The God is the more important aspect of "sujood", because without mental obedience, a physical sujood is useless.
The prostration upon the forehead is typical of the pagan prostration to their gods/godesses. For example, the Nabatean pagans used to prostrate to the cuboid idol of Allat upon their foreheads. Many Hindus also prostrate to their idols upon their foreheads.
Ghaalib says
kehte ho kyaa likhaa hai tirii sar-navisht mein
goyaa jabiin peh sijdah-e but kaa nishaan nahiin(on my forehead the mark of idol-prostration can be seen, and this itself is my fate and destiny).
http//www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ghalib/091/91_10.html
That is why the rejecters will not be able to "sujood" when called to it and will thus feel humiliation, because IMO they will be doing it the wrong way on their foreheads or not doing it at all
6842 The Day will come when they will be exposed, and they will be required to prostrate, but they will be unable to.
6843 With their eyes subdued, humiliation will cover them. They were invited to prostrate when they were whole and able. -
Brother Tanveer,
This is little bit vague. What would be the physical position by bringing chin near to ground. Is it simply bending little bit or going down straight and touching the ground? What should be done with the word "Kharoo", falling from up to ground which creates some sound also. Please clarify, it is little bit confusing me.
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Salaam brother Mazhar,
According to Lane's Lexicon
KHARRA = To sound murmured/rumbled or gurgled (water), run so as to make a noise , to be made to run , sound rustled (wind), to snore or make a sound in breathing, to fall or fall down (making a sound to be heard at the same time) , come upon a place or person suddenly or unawares, to be lax or flabby, to pass along or away or by from one place to another.
In the sense of falling down, "kharra" does not necessarily imply to make a sound according to LL. It is also used in the sense of just falling and not necessarily touching the ground.
According to LL, it can also signify "he, or it, fell from a high to a low place". For example "kharra min as-samaa" meaning "he fell from the sky". Therefore, when a parachuter falls from an airplane, the act will be "kharra" even before he has touched the ground. It will be "kharra" also when he touches the ground, so "kharra" can be falling from a high to a low place with or without touching the ground.
Even when the pagans prostrate on their foreheads to their idols, they don't BANG their foreheads on the ground to produce a noise, otherwise they can end up having concussions or bruises !!
What would be the physical position by bringing chin near to ground. Is it simply bending little bit or going down straight and touching the ground?
In my understanding, it can be both. Both positions will fulfill "yukhirroona lilazqaani sujjadan". I personally touch the chin to the ground.
It can have a metaphorical meaning too as used in the Qur'aan, if used with "sujjadan" alone, for example "kharroo lahoo sujjadan" in 12100, which can have a metaphorical meaning of "fell to him in obedience" meaning obeyed him or yielded to him, as implied by the context (remember the Qur'aan is its own dictionary). Similar metaphorical usage in English is "he fell sick", or "the commander ordered the soldiers to fall in line". But in 17107 and 17109, the usage of the word "lilazqaan" in addition to falling sujjadan implies that it is a physical act (of course with a mental aspect of obedience to The God also) and not purely metaphorical.
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Peace siki,
We can't go by that since there are numerous asteroids, comets, and perhaps billions of other planets in our universe and remember Pluto was relegated to another rock.
Peace
Ya ! i know, and i agree, they were gunning to make them twelve , but ended up relegating Pluto. Recently i have heard that they are still in the process of delibrating the correct definition of a planet. Some how i am very hopeful that finally there would be 12 planets, when the scientists are over with rewriting/finding the correct definition.
You wanna know why am i so sure? because i have pondered over the use of the word kokaba in this ayah. Why didn't God use the word "Najoom"? For those people then, for that dream only, "Najoom" (stars) would be more appropriate and would have made more sense, along with sun and the moon. sun
siki
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You wanna know why am i so sure? because i have pondered over the use of the word kokaba in this ayah. Why didn't God use the word "Najoom"? For those people then, for that dream only, "Najoom" (stars) would be more appropriate and would have made more sense, along with sun and the moon. sun
Perhaps this verse will shed light...
an-Nur 024035
Allahu nooru alssamawati waal-ardi mathalu noorihi kamishkatin feeha misbahun almisbahu fee zujajatin alzzujajatu kaannaha kawkabun durriyyun yooqadu min shajaratin mubarakatin zaytoonatin la sharqiyyatin wala gharbiyyatin yakadu zaytuha yudee-o walaw lam tamsas-hu narun noorun AAala noorin yahdee Allahu linoorihi man yashao wayadribu Allahu al-amthala lilnnasi waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun
Peace
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Perhaps this verse will shed light...
an-Nur 024035
Allahu nooru alssamawati waal-ardi mathalu noorihi kamishkatin feeha misbahun almisbahu fee zujajatin alzzujajatu kaannaha kawkabun durriyyun yooqadu min shajaratin mubarakatin zaytoonatin la sharqiyyatin wala gharbiyyatin yakadu zaytuha yudee-o walaw lam tamsas-hu narun noorun AAala noorin yahdee Allahu linoorihi man yashao wayadribu Allahu al-amthala lilnnasi waAllahu bikulli shay-in AAaleemun
Peace
A very important verse for understanding God, but i guess mankind needs some decades(or may be more) to properly understand this verse.
siki
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Brother Tanveer,
We are still not here not there. By this we are in a circle rather than moving on a straight line. For a while, there is no harm in doing the practical. For making only the chin to touch the ground, the excercise becomes quite difficult and looks ridiculous too. One has to kneal or lie straight on the ground to make the chin touch the ground.And then touching the chin or the forehead, what difference both will reflect? Except providing an opportunity to the idol worshippers, who reportedly prostrate and make their forehead touch the ground while keeping the idol right before them, to mock for adopting and following their practice rather in a ridiculous manner.
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Salaam bro Mazhar,
"Yakhirroon lilazqaani sujjadan" clearly implies sujood to the chin and not forehead and does not necessarily imply touching the chin with the ground. If The God wanted sujood upon the forehead, He would have said "3alal jabeeni", but we clearly hear "lilazqaani"/to the chins in context of sujood.
I don't find it difficult to perform the sujood with the chin touching the ground and I don't care if someone mocks me, as the salaat is for God alone and not to show off to others. Maybe this way is to differentiate the pagan's sujood to idols from the believer's sujood to The God alone.
Those who find the "exercise" (as you put it) difficult, can just bend down a little by bending their backs while sitting in the kneeling position and that will fulfill the command of "falling to the chin sujjadan" also as I explained in my previous post above. IMO, even just bending one's neck until the chin touches the upper chest while mentally focussing on obedience of The God would also be falling to the chin in sujood. That might be the sujood of choice while performing salaat walking or riding in state of fear/worry (2239).
The important thing is that the mental aspect of sujood i.e. obedience to The God is more important than how exactly one performs one's physical sujood, as long as one is lowering the chin nearer to the ground as stated in the Qur'aan.
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Brother, Assalamo Alaikum,
Please don't take the word "excercise" in lowely perception, everything involving physical movement and activity falls within the purview of this word; moving of chin to the chest or on ground is after all a physical movement. And deliberate movements are controlled mostly by that part of the memory which we call "procedural memory". If by practice, it is easy for one to touch the chin on the ground, for other who has not practiced it for quite some time it will remain a difficult proposition. Today I have seen many topics on the forum regarding salat and its ettiquettes/manners etc and downloaded dozens of pages to go through them. At the moment, I just want to know would this manner of salat or by whatever name we call it, be an individual activity or with another or more people since what you say is recited during this contains plural words "We"?