2 questions concerning chapter/surah 30 about the romans...
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That issue has been taken care of at many other places. Here a fact is being narrated, therefore, why should it be taken symbollically to defeat the desires. We need not play with the words of the Book and try to perceive the "thought" of Allah other than what His words are depicting.
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Salaams Br,
well people having played with words have made oceans devide??? , certainly not i.
Here a fact is being narrated
A fact that presupposes a future event not taken place, well......
may be your right , but ...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8715.0Salaams
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well people having played with words have made oceans devide??? , certainly not i. {mz
}Half of the thing has been said and half kept back. How could we make anything out of it? Please say something complete so that we can understand in what context it is being said or what is the complete statement. It may not be presumed that we have read everything said by everyone.
A fact that presupposes a future event not taken place, well?..{mz}
Today NASA gives me the news that after 1000 years there shall be an eclipse. I accept it without questioning. Why? I accept it because I know they have said it on the basis of knowledge that they have. They tell me that on such and such date at such and such time a cyclone will hit your seashore, we immediately take appropriate precautionary measures. If Allah had given news about the happening in future 3-9 years, what is strange in it that this news should not have been accepted? One Messenger had told his nation that enjoy for another three days and then you will face a tragedy and Book tells that it happened. What is strange in it not to accept?
All actions are taken only with a purpose. If we are not sure of the possibility of achieving the desired result, men of prudence do not perform an act. There is always doubt before knowledge. And there is always a conviction/belief/understanding of achieving the desired result for which we intend/decide to take an action.
And our capability of action is dependent upon the fact that Allah has created everything by and making it . Had everything around us not like that, could we imagine of taking a decision even for taking a glass of water? We know the things only by relationship. And anyone who is not aware of the result of his doings seems to have been acting in a distorted state of mind. We know the future; we know our destiny; we are the writers of our own book, which will decide our fate. We will be our own judge. Everything is recorded. And when we read about our past actions, we recall and see them in our vision. That day we will recall/see minutest of things done good or bad.
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?but he's tryin to say it has nothing to do with the romans... so base your counterpoints on that! ?{AaRun}
Dear AaRun, Who is he who is saying that?
?thanks mz, i was waiting for someone to postulate that perhaps rwm has nothing to do with romans at all.
i've been saying it for years but very few listen? {AaRun}
Here you use the word "perhaps", still you are bold enough to ask for the counterpoints on it. If you ask me to prove the esistence of sun, do you expect I will start giving you arguments. And see mz does not seem to have applied his own mind; he says Lane had applied his mind. You seem to be little bit tired. Refresh up and we will discuss.
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Use lanes;
302-4
Have defeated the desires in their nearest (worldly) disposition and they after their defeat will gain mastery.
Their relationships will determine the fruitfulness of time to come and indeed will rejoice the believers.302 Ghulibati alrroomu
Usually ?al? denounces a noun and without cross-reference to another verse one is left to ponder if it?s an Arabic word or ever applied to anything other than ?The Romans? in other literature at the time.
Using Lanes to study roots of ?borrowed? words doesn?t always work well; i.e. with 1051 alfeel, a loanword from Persian ?peel? meaning ?elephant? (no ?p? sound thus ?f? used).
As for ability to prophesy future events, consider dreams in Surah 12?
1241 "O my two companions of the prison! As to one of you, he will pour out the wine for his lord to drink as for the other, he will hang from the cross, and the birds will eat from off his head. (so) hath been decreed that matter whereof ye twain do enquire"...
Peace
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Half of the thing has been said and half kept back. How could we make anything out of it? Please say something complete so that we can understand in what context it is being said or what is the complete statement. It may not be presumed that we have read everything said by everyone.
Sorry Mazhar - i was talking about Moses splitting the sea - bazaar or what and its all playing with words.
Today NASA gives me the news that after 1000 years there shall be an eclipse. I accept it without questioning. Why? I accept it because I know they have said it on the basis of knowledge that they have. They tell me that on such and such date at such and such time a cyclone will hit your seashore, we immediately take appropriate precautionary measures. If Allah had given news about the happening in future 3-9 years, what is strange in it that this news should not have been accepted? One Messenger had told his nation that enjoy for another three days and then you will face a tragedy and Book tells that it happened. What is strange in it not to accept?
Again Mazhar there is nothing about future events in the quran - its too long an argument to discuss, accept you will get good for being good and vice versa , i think.
All actions are taken only with a purpose. If we are not sure of the possibility of achieving the desired result, men of prudence do not perform an act. There is always doubt before knowledge. And there is always a conviction/belief/understanding of achieving the desired result for which we intend/decide to take an action.
And our capability of action is dependent upon the fact that Allah has created everything by and making it . Had everything around us not like that, could we imagine of taking a decision even for taking a glass of water? We know the things only by relationship. And anyone who is not aware of the result of his doings seems to have been acting in a distorted state of mind. We know the future; we know our destiny; we are the writers of our own book, which will decide our fate. We will be our own judge. Everything is recorded. And when we read about our past actions, we recall and see them in our vision. That day we will recall/see minutest of things done good or bad.
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"?So obviously joseph new their law and consequently after careful thought investigation told them what their outcome was going to be ? I believe?{mz253}
Your beliefs are quite interesting. "His careful thought investigation" told him that one of the two prisoners will become very close to the king!!
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Brother Nun,
Try
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9769.msg43192#msg43192
God Bless All.
Brother mz,
Try
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13232.msg110315#msg110315
Still have these occasionally about once a month. D
Peace
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I have seen how rum and feel can mean other things as well. Feel can mean something along the lines of doubt and confusion, and rum something like worldy desires as Mz say but I need to jog my memory. Mz, would you mind posting the citations, word by word, of lane for rum and feel. That would help your point if you could actually post the citations for everyone to see.
I'm going to look it up for myself as well, but please post your evidences if you are going to make claims.Godbless,
Anwar -
Dear Anwar,
You had reached a conclusion. Mz has again made you double minded. He is interpreting and drawing meanings after finding a word ?desires? on page 359 of volume 3 of Lane Lexicon, against , . . I feel disappointed and sorry that a man like Anwar could be misled by mz who is just trying to make mockery of Arabic words. The verse starts with and even a man like me of ordinary knowledge of Arabic language know that it is singular feminine, showing one thing of past. And the second word is prefixed with ?Al?. And defeat of a nation, kingdom is narrated by a feminine word. is masculine and always compares two things. A linguist is expected to ignore such observations/interpretations or loudly call them a foolish idea instead starts following it to find some substance in it.
Wa in tuti' aksara man fil ardi yudillu_ka 'an sabililla_h(i), iy yattabi'u_na illaz zanna wa in hum illa_ yakhrusu_n(a). {6116}.When one thing is more than clear and supporting evidence is also their would it be a prudent behavior to keep running after conjectures and what people are inventing?
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Dear Anwar,
You had reached a conclusion. Mz has again made you double minded. He is interpreting and drawing meanings after finding a word ?desires? on page 359 of volume 3 of Lane Lexicon, against , . . I feel disappointed and sorry that a man like Anwar could be misled by mz who is just trying to make mockery of Arabic words. The verse starts with and even a man like me of ordinary knowledge of Arabic language know that it is singular feminine, showing one thing of past. And the second word is prefixed with ?Al?. And defeat of a nation, kingdom is narrated by a feminine word. is masculine and always compares two things. A linguist is expected to ignore such observations/interpretations or loudly call them a foolish idea instead starts following it to find some substance in it.
Wa in tuti' aksara man fil ardi yudillu_ka 'an sabililla_h(i), iy yattabi'u_na illaz zanna wa in hum illa_ yakhrusu_n(a). {6116}.When one thing is more than clear and supporting evidence is also their would it be a prudent behavior to keep running after conjectures and what people are inventing?
At least you wasn't angry like
021.068
YUSUFALI They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do (anything at all)!"I have learnt to use the God given intelligence Br rather then thinking i am making any type of mockery of any language , but to you your way.
God Bless.
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"I have learnt to use the God given intelligence Br rather then thinking i am making any type of mockery of any language , but to you your way"
But you don't seem to have given some "intelligence" to what was said. "knowledge" based on "Perhaps" is not intelligence, it is conjecture and wishfull thinking. Page No and Volume of Lane has already been indicated in red. Also please consult about the other words used in the verse, otherwise what you say is nothing but your "desire", "imagination" . And it leads to nowhere but to the place where the followers of wanted to throw syedna Ibrahim {peace is upon him} but the end result was their own humiliation.
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Dear Brother,
Here is reflected your habit of drawing conclusion from half statement while ignoring the last part. When you do it like this the perception you may get will always be contrary to what had been said. You omitted "what had been said". I don't feel hard, but in responding I try that the viewers/readers may also get some new point to ponder. What I suggested was that in addition to word "desire" used by Lane in a different context, the meanings of other words used in the verse may also be taken care so that a truthful perception could be conceived.
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Salaams Br,
What I suggested was that in addition to word "desire" used by Lane in a different context, the meanings of other words used in the verse may also be taken care so that a truthful perception could be conceived.
A nice suggestion Br. It is however unfortunate some of us don't have much time.
I would like to say one thing though - the languages become rigid as they get established in time , but when a language first starts off it hardly has any rules and the quran came at such a time , so the grammer rules didn't apply as much then - i think.
God Bless.
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Dear brother,
Nothing gets rigid. Grammer is not that important, O kay. But the words have specific meanings. Quran is called Mubeen and its language is Arabic Mubeen. And the very word Mubeen clarifies that the meanings of a statement/word of Quran cannot be two or three. Quran is made easy because of it being Mubeen. Then its ayat have been "" i.e. seperated/segregated so that everything becomes distinct. Again its ayat have been "" which means to distinguish the two things, segregate right from wrong, knowledge from conjecture, truth from falsehood since the job of the judge is to decide and segregate two things. And Quran is still made easier by so that even a man of ordinary prudence could perceive the stated thing from all angles comprehensively. Quran says right has been segregated from wrong. But our problem is that we don't have much of time and see Quran only as a side activity.