Traditional Muslims are human-worshipping sheep
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peace brother
althought i agree with u on rejecting most of sunni and shia traditions that does not have a source
in the coran, i find the title that u chose silly and not right.
some traditional muslims r struggling for the sake of islam and the path of GOD
while others who consider themselves true muslims r living like sheep.
besides no muslim is human worshipping . we all believe in the same GOD
we all say "there no god but GOD".6117
Your Lord is fully aware of who strays from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. -
Peace Falcon,
Welcome to the board and thanks for expressing the rage. I don't remember being so angry at any sunni point in my life, just frustrated at times when I'd hit blocks trying to search for truth. peace
besides no muslim is human worshipping . we all believe in the same GOD we all say "there no god but GOD".
Yes, we all "say" this, but "saying" isn't enough, right?631 When the hypocrites come to you they Say ?We bear witness that you are the messenger of God.? And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
Peace.
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Thanks for the welcome all.
Zenje, I've never been angry as a direct result of religion. But the event that made me angry made my understanding of this world impossible to reconcile with the traditional Muslim view, and it's that conversation some months later that inspired me to go for the Quran alone.
Moslem, I agree with Zenje, saying is not enough. But I wouldn't call other Muslims hypocrites, they're mostly useless sheep. I just don't think the majority ever gave a thought to what Islam's monotheism implied.
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Yes, we all "say" this, but "saying" isn't enough, right?
631 When the hypocrites come to you they Say ?We bear witness that you are the messenger of God.? And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
peace brother
i used to consider myself a shia and as far as i can remember i meant it everytime i said "there's no god but GOD"
and i believed in it, i wasn't an idolator as some people say about sunni and shia.
now i simply say im a submitter and i still have some shia beliefs and i reject some of it.
that verse u gave talks about hypocrites who left islam after the prophet died
and if u call all other muslims hypocrites i advice u to read my first reply
only GOD knows who is on the straight pathPS i see u'r not different of some salafis like al kaida who consider other muslims as "kafir"
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The difference is on what basis?
There is no difference. Your authority to judge another's deen is null. The best you can do is respond to their actions & falsehood.
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peace falcon, and welcome
631 When the hypocrites come to you they Say ?We bear witness that you are the messenger of God.? And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
let's ponder this verse now....First of all i am not in favor of going around and calling people kaafirs
Remember Quran is also its own dictionary....
Take 631 and who 'bears witness' in their salat of such? And God clearly says here that he already knows who his messengers are !
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Once I decided it is "falsehood", I judged it. If I can't judge it, how can I respond?
The problem is that these words describes states of minds, not the people themselves. We all follow falsehood at one point, that may mean we are "kafir", but permanently?
More specifically, you just cannot say "I am more guided than you", the Quran warns against that, true or false?
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The problem is that these words describes states of minds, not the people themselves. We all follow falsehood at one point, that may mean we are "kafir", but permanently?
More specifically, you just cannot say "I am more guided than you", the Quran warns against that, true or false?
well said indeed
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besides no muslim is human worshipping . we all believe in the same GOD we all say "there no god but GOD".
Yes, we all "say" this, but "saying" isn't enough, right?
631 When the hypocrites come to you they Say ?We bear witness that you are the messenger of God.? And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
peace brother
i used to consider myself a shia and as far as i can remember i meant it everytime i said "there's no god but GOD"
and i believed in it, i wasn't an idolator as some people say about sunni and shia.
now i simply say im a submitter and i still have some shia beliefs and i reject some of it.
that verse u gave talks about hypocrites who left islam after the prophet died
and if u call all other muslims hypocrites i advice u to read my first reply
only GOD knows who is on the straight pathPS i see u'r not different of some salafis like al kaida who consider other muslims as "kafir"
Peace moslem,
No problem, it seems you have made up your mind about that. But I just wanted to point out, I said "we". And the verse I posted, was about "saying and not meaning" which is what I was talking about. My emphasis was not on hypocrites.
PEACE )
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Salam/peace/shalom, sun
The problem is that these words describes states of minds, not the people themselves. We all follow falsehood at one point, that may mean we are "kafir", but permanently?
I myself believe that the word 'kafir' describes the bad minds of people who justify it by covering it up with religious sayings. It's derived from the word 'kafara' which means to cover, deny, hide, renounce, reject, disbelieve (opposite of belief), be ungrateful, negligent, expiate, darken.
We basically can say that believers in God/Allah for example who kill people for reasons like not belonging to their religious group/sect is a 'kafir'... They 'darken' the words of God/Allah to justify their actions. So it's indeed a state of mind that makes a person 'kafir' or not. The more evil your mind is, the more 'kafir' (dark) you become. The Almighty is our light... turning off his light means disbelieving in peace and tranquillity and thus disbelieving in the Almighty's rules.
More specifically, you just cannot say "I am more guided than you", the Quran warns against that, true or false?
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion." (Quran 1091-6)That's why the Almighty let's everybody choose his own 'religion'/view, since we, humans, don't perfectly know which path to walk on and have to search it for our own. So we basically can't say 'you're wrong and I'm right', but we can say 'I think you're wrong and that the way how I interpret it is right' and then start a dialogue and discuss the matter (if one wishes) in where you disagree in.
Example
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand." (Quran 6151)A soul created by the Almighty is sacred and the one ignoring that fact can get his hands burned by doing the above since we're allowed to react in the same way by the Almighty for the sake of justice of saving our lives/soul. That are the rules of the Almighty, denying that is disbelieving and 'covering' it up with your own opinion, which can be considered as 'shirk' (idol worshipping -putting yourself or somebody else as your "lawmaker", your God-).
jedi
Ma'salama,
Latifah
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I come from a liberal sunni background. Years ago, something happened that made me hate God to the point that, merely hearing his name would fill me with deep rage and scorn. It shouldn't have happened as I'm half agnostic/nontheist, but it must have been the other half which didn't want to go away.
I knew enough about the other major religions not to be attracted to them. I wasn't attracted by the idea of becoming like one of those ex-Muslims who never went beyond the traditional view of Islam and hated it for it either. I've never been convinced by quite a few things in the sunni view of Islam in the first place, but I would attribute those elements to traditions without further thought. Even in my anger though, there are things I always liked about Islam, but I thought Muslims had parted away from them. Things like the many concepts that implied individual independence (no one is above you but God, individual accountability), rationalism (for practical purposes, strict monotheism towards an immaterial God might as well mean you're on noone else but your own brain here and now), pragmatism (the claimed ease of application, money, sex, power, are all okay parts of it, though the morons will always find restrictive twists).
My rage lasted a few months. The trigger happened when a bit randomly, in a conversation that didn't have much to do with religion, as a mere technical observation, someone corrected mixing up hadith and quranic verse. The hadith in question brought me to wonder about something that seemed to be so uncritically taken for granted as an Islamic prohibition (piled up on the endless list of prohibitions by sunnis and shias), yet was nowhere to be found in the Quran.
I undertook a much closer scrutiny of the hadith and the Quran. The former was so full of outright retarded stuff. The Quran OTOH offered enough flexibility for anyone to come up with some sense out of it given the right interpretation, without necessarily splitting hair. A historical look confirms how the hadith was so much easier to tamper with than the Quran - which ironically for sunnis/shias, voids the whole claim of correcting previous religions which have been tampered with by man. I didn't realize there were others who shared this view until quite some time later. Though I don't necessarily agree with everything on this site or others alike, I found a lot of material useful and convincing.
Today, I'm even more convinced that shias and sunnis are not so strictly monotheists. The legacy and the reverence to all those contemporary muslim priests, their dead "muslim apostles" and "fathers of the muslim church" comes in the way. For the sunnis lurking out there, that's your lesser gods who, good or bad, have no more claims to perfection than I do, i.e. the amru khaleds, the bukharis, the companions... Or for many, your even lesser gods, i.e. your kings, generals, petty cops and soldiers, the barely literate imams or the self-righteous pseudo-enlightened, the White Man or the idealized Black Man hiding all those inferiority complexes, the Eyes of the Neighbors and what they'd think of you...
Anyway, I'm not sharing my story in the style of touchy feely communities who newly discovered their faith, I actually wanted to take the chance to express my regards to you people for not submitting to another human being. That is what "there is NO god BUT god" is about after all.
Oh no! Not another tawassul bashing! tempt
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Peace,
Welcome to the forum, always nice with new members )
Majidah
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Yes, welcome!
I believe some of the main problems with people are that
- they mostly assume that they are right, and not allowing for the possiblility that they can be wrong or that many different parties can be right.
- they often have a tendency to force their ideas upon others, in order for themselves to feel good inside (insecurity issue) - and not letting/helping others to learn at their own pace according to their own circumstances.
- they often think they have the final answer, and therefor consider it useless to keep learning, investigating, striving for knowledge.
It seems that alot of people believe they sit on the final truth and have the right to shove it doen others' throats.
The absolute main problem is that people don't allow their mind to be open to new ideas or points of view. It seems so damn hard for people to see things from other people's point of view.
peace brother!
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Peace Zulf,
Yeah you are so right about this handshake
And if more people would look outside the box it would be easier to have intresting discussions.
Majidah