Was the Bible and Torah corrupted? What does Quran say?
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Muslims keep saying the Bible and Torah has been tampered and its been corrupted yet there is no eveidence from that in the Quran. In fact the Quran says the exact opposite
But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard They change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds) For God loveth those who are kind. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 13)
There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from God,' but it is not from God It is they who tell a lie against God and (well) they know it! (Surah 3, Al-i-'Imran, verse 7
Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)
Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 6
If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)
But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say,"Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth." (Surah 3, Al-i-'Imran, verse 93)
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)
"They (i.e. Jews and Christians) changed words from their contexts and forgot a good part of the message given to them, and you will continue to find them -except a few among them- bent on new deceits?" (513)
O People of the Book, now has come to you Our Messenger, clarifying to you much of that you used to conceal of the Book and passing over much (that is now unnecessary)." (515)
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48
All these verses imply the Bible and Torah are authoritative and are a source of guidance and to be followed. Yet Muslim keep telling me otherwise. I have tried in vain to find anything in the Quran that says the previous scriptues have been distotred and are unreliable. The only thing i found is this, whic is often used by Muslims including the hadiths from Ibn Abbas
2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
However upon close examination the verse before it says this
2.78. And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
So it seems the Quran was talking about forgeries and frauds who do not know the book but write stuff as if its from it. However the scriptures that were with the rabbis and the men of learning were not the intended attack by verse 79. In fact the Quran states the opposite
Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 68-69)
How could there be a party on the right course if the scriptures were tampered.
And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. 3199
Who were those Christians and what scriptures were they reciting the verses of?
Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid wrong; and they hasten in good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing. 3113-115
What verses were they reciting?
It seems yet again the Quran saying something but Muslims are saying something else. It seems from the Quran that the peole talked about making stuff up were not following what the scriptures were saying that the Jews and Christians had at the time. And it says that those scriptures indeed support what the Quran is saying that Jesus never claimed divinity and the Jews are not saved from God's punishment by virtue of ethnicity.
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Correct, definitely. The corruption in the Bible is self-evident, however. Jesus being transformed into a god, and his signs bestowed being transformed into gody powers, also.
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Peace
Jesus never claims divinity in the Old Testament. I also watched a video from Dr Zakir Naik about Jesus and the resurrection. He states that Jesus wasn't Crucified (meaning died on the cross) but that he survived it. His reasoning behind it was that Jesus' death was only hearsay from the Roman soldiers, no one actually saw it. He was put in the sepulcher and Mary would go to wash his feet. He said that Jews dont practice such a thing with the dead. Also, Jesus was dressed as a Gardener. Why would he do that if he wasnt afraid of the Romans finding out that he was alive? Even Mary didnt recognize him at first. He also stated to the disciples when they called him a ghost, "A spirit is not made of flesh and bones". I think that all of this resurrection business is not really in the Gospels after I heard his explanation. Theres 8 parts to the video, heres part 1 if you wish to view it in detail http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOn4lFVkIw
Some parts are from a Christian guy, as its a debate. Some is from Naik. Theres also a question and answer from both of them in the last parts.Peace
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Peace
Jesus never claims divinity in the Old Testament. I also watched a video from Dr Zakir Naik about Jesus and the resurrection. He states that Jesus wasn't Crucified (meaning died on the cross) but that he survived it. His reasoning behind it was that Jesus' death was only hearsay from the Roman soldiers, no one actually saw it. He was put in the sepulcher and Mary would go to wash his feet. He said that Jews dont practice such a thing with the dead. Also, Jesus was dressed as a Gardener. Why would he do that if he wasnt afraid of the Romans finding out that he was alive? Even Mary didnt recognize him at first. He also stated to the disciples when they called him a ghost, "A spirit is not made of flesh and bones". I think that all of this resurrection business is not really in the Gospels after I heard his explanation. Theres 8 parts to the video, heres part 1 if you wish to view it in detail http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJOn4lFVkIw
Some parts are from a Christian guy, as its a debate. Some is from Naik. Theres also a question and answer from both of them in the last parts.Peace
Correct, Jesus never. Others did
What I mean, also, is that the gospels are "hadeeth", also with a very hearsay nature, I don't understand the logic - did St Paul, Mark, Matthew and others each get sent down a book from God?
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Salaam
Correct, Jesus never. Others did
What I mean, also, is that the gospels are "hadeeth", also with a very hearsay nature, I don't understand the logic - did St Paul, Mark, Matthew and others each get sent down a book from God?
I agree with it being hadeeth. About Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they had it on the History channel and I think they said that its possible that someone wrote at least 2 of them themselves. Something about P or Q, I forgot what they named the author.
Either way, it quotes Jesus speaking about pure monotheism, just as Islam. Why would God cower that he would be crucified and pray to Himself to save him from the ordeal?
The way I see it, you should know God and whats right WITHOUT a book or teaching. If you need to be taught it, then its mostly a fake. Like the Quran states, we have the natural instinct, fitrah, in Allah.
Was Salaam
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Salaam
I agree with it being hadeeth. About Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they had it on the History channel and I think they said that its possible that someone wrote at least 2 of them themselves. Something about P or Q, I forgot what they named the author.
Either way, it quotes Jesus speaking about pure monotheism, just as Islam. Why would God cower that he would be crucified and pray to Himself to save him from the ordeal?
The way I see it, you should know God and whats right WITHOUT a book or teaching. If you need to be taught it, then its mostly a fake. Like the Quran states, we have the natural instinct, fitrah, in Allah.
Was Salaam
Exactly! Very well put.
It's also interesting how "Islamic" hadith are so close to the Gospels, just referring to different prophets. They're both recorded by humans sometime after the prophets' deaths. Further, on a more comedic note, the hadith and the Gospels both have four "books." Astonishing how closely they resemble each other.
Peace all
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Peace
Exactly! Very well put.
It's also interesting how "Islamic" hadith are so close to the Gospels, just referring to different prophets. They're both recorded by humans sometime after the prophets' deaths. Further, on a more comedic note, the hadith and the Gospels both have four "books." Astonishing how closely they resemble each other.
Peace all
Thanks. Maybe it is a sign for us? The Gospels, like the Hadiths, have some good messages. To say that it was garbage would be as ignorant as saying that it is Gods Word. I personally do like the Gospels due to the fact that it describes a lot of what the Quran says about Jesus. It kind of fits in place. Of course theres some descripancies between it and Quran but nothing major like Jesus claiming Divinity.
Peace
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Peace
Thanks. Maybe it is a sign for us? The Gospels, like the Hadiths, have some good messages. To say that it was garbage would be as ignorant as saying that it is Gods Word. I personally do like the Gospels due to the fact that it describes a lot of what the Quran says about Jesus. It kind of fits in place. Of course theres some descripancies between it and Quran but nothing major like Jesus claiming Divinity.
Peace
Yeah of course, there is truth found in both ahadith and the Gospels, but who knows which parts are true and which aren't. They should only be taken for historical help, not for guidance regarding the deen.
Peace
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Peace
Yeah of course, there is truth found in both ahadith and the Gospels, but who knows which parts are true and which aren't. They should only be taken for historical help, not for guidance regarding the deen.
Peace
I agree with that. What is your take on the rest of the NT? Like Pauls notes? I dont understand why they included his letters in the Bible at all. I guess since he was the major contributer to Christianity they felt the need to include it? I know that they have taken things out of the Bible before. Odd how it used to be the word of god and then they took it out.
Peace
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Peace
I agree with that. What is your take on the rest of the NT? Like Pauls notes? I dont understand why they included his letters in the Bible at all. I guess since he was the major contributer to Christianity they felt the need to include it? I know that they have taken things out of the Bible before. Odd how it used to be the word of god and then they took it out.
Peace
26 letters from Paul are in the NT, I believe. I guess people were gullible? And included his works in the NT. As you said, he was the founder of Christianity as we know it today. Afterwards, things like the Council of Nicaea further facilitated the corruption of Jesus' words and caused an orthodox Christianity. Various sects that had different views (including not believing in Jesus' divinity) were immediately shut up and belief in the trinity and Jesus' divinity was the new standard. It's just human nature I guess, happens with ever prophet
Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman is a good read. Check it out if you haven't already.
Peace
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26 letters from Paul are in the NT, I believe. I guess people were gullible? And included his works in the NT. As you said, he was the founder of Christianity as we know it today. Afterwards, things like the Council of Nicaea further facilitated the corruption of Jesus' words and caused an orthodox Christianity. Various sects that had different views (including not believing in Jesus' divinity) were immediately shut up and belief in the trinity and Jesus' divinity was the new standard. It's just human nature I guess, happens with ever prophet
Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman is a good read. Check it out if you haven't already.
Peace
Wow 26? I knew it was a lot but didnt actually count them. I wonder if it was true that he really was a orthodox rabbi, or did he just make it seem that way to make others convert?
The Nicaea one Ive read about. I think it was a debate against Jesus being in the beginning or being a creation. Arius vs Athanasius I believe it was, and Constantine CHOSE what was correct. Its funny that you have to vote to choose whats the correct religion. What if there were 29 votes that were all wrong?
About every prophet thats so true. People seem to worship the exact things they are told not to. As far as that book I am looking for it online right now, thanks for the tip. I bet the Christians say, "O its from a Jew, thats why".
Peace
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Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman is a good read. Check it out if you haven't already.
Peace
Wow 26? I knew it was a lot but didnt actually count them. I wonder if it was true that he really was a orthodox rabbi, or did he just make it seem that way to make others convert?
The Nicaea one Ive read about. I think it was a debate against Jesus being in the beginning or being a creation. Arius vs Athanasius I believe it was, and Constantine CHOSE what was correct. Its funny that you have to vote to choose whats the correct religion. What if there were 29 votes that were all wrong?
About every prophet thats so true. People seem to worship the exact things they are told not to. As far as that book I am looking for it online right now, thanks for the tip. I bet the Christians say, "O its from a Jew, thats why".
Peace
He overlooked Jesus' crucifixion (as Christians believe) then afterwards he supposedly saw Jesus in spirit and decided to repent. And for some reason, people believe this? It's laughable. This is the crutch for most of the NT today.
The voting thing is truly hilarious.
People tend to be drawn to physical things/people because it's easier to believe in. Definitely check out the book, Ehrman actually used to be Christian. He explains how he became aware of this in the intro.
Peace
Indeed, the voting thing is hilarious
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Peace
He overlooked Jesus' crucifixion (as Christians believe) then afterwards he supposedly saw Jesus in spirit and decided to repent. And for some reason, people believe this? It's laughable. This is the crutch for most of the NT today.
The voting thing is truly hilarious.
People tend to be drawn to physical things/people because it's easier to believe in. Definitely check out the book, Ehrman actually used to be Christian. He explains how he became aware of this in the intro.
Peace
Indeed, the voting thing is hilarious
Right, I remember it now that he saw the spirit of Jesus. Before this he had apparently stoned Christians. Its funny that people believe this, yet theres people that spew this exact same thing. Such as seeing the Virgin Mary in a tortilla. Thats actually an anecdote, as it was sold on eBay I believe.
Im getting the book, cant wait to read it. Hopefully Ill get it by tom to read. If he used to be a Christian, did he change his last name or something? Ehrman makes me think he's Jewish. Like a Weinstein or Goldberg.
As far as voting is concerned, that has to be the least legitimate way to solidify the religion of the state. If the scripture doesnt agree with the hearsay of the people, it shouldnt be followed (ie Jesus being God). Whats more, if the scripture contradicts itself, such as circumcision and other Jewish traditions being outdone by Paul, it definitely shouldn't be followed. "Lets vote to eat pork" is basically what they did.
Peace
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Peace
Right, I remember it now that he saw the spirit of Jesus. Before this he had apparently stoned Christians. Its funny that people believe this, yet theres people that spew this exact same thing. Such as seeing the Virgin Mary in a tortilla. Thats actually an anecdote, as it was sold on eBay I believe.
Im getting the book, cant wait to read it. Hopefully Ill get it by tom to read. If he used to be a Christian, did he change his last name or something? Ehrman makes me think he's Jewish. Like a Weinstein or Goldberg.
As far as voting is concerned, that has to be the least legitimate way to solidify the religion of the state. If the scripture doesnt agree with the hearsay of the people, it shouldnt be followed (ie Jesus being God). Whats more, if the scripture contradicts itself, such as circumcision and other Jewish traditions being outdone by Paul, it definitely shouldn't be followed. "Lets vote to eat pork" is basically what they did.
Peace
It really is funny how people buy into things like that. I don't understand it.
Awesome, tell me what you think. Yeah he might have converted.
Exactly! The most efficient way is to study the scripture and gain the best understanding. Not voting for extra arbitrary manmade laws.
Peace