Is Maryam from the NCRI/MEK a Quran only leader/Imam?

unknownuser

Salaam all,

Did you get this from Lane? If not, where? As I said above I dont have my resources with me, so cant check.

Please look up Kha-Miim-Ra in Project Root List, LL, V2, page 445, middle bottom and top right columns.

Dose this mean the rest of the women are instructed in the Quraan to wear an outer garment.

3359 O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments (jalaabeebihinna). That is better so that they will be recognized and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

"Jalabeeb" is the plural of "jilbaab" which is a loose outer garment, like a gown or cloak.

Wakas

peace Tanveer,

Is it the following you are referring to (first two Arabic words, bottom line of pic)? I never found anything in the middle and bottom part of right column.

http//img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?a0ab376d34.jpg

Perhaps Samia can clarify.
It is definitely making "khimaar" equivalent (i.q.) to "naSeef", but then does it make "naSeef" also as "khimirr" or "khimaar" as well? Also if the plural of "khimirr" is "khumur".

Samia

peace Tanveer,

http//img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?a0ab376d34.jpg

It is definitely making "khimaar" equivalent (i.q.) to "naSeef", but then does it make "naSeef" also as "khimirr" or "khimaar" as well? Also if the plural of "khimirr" is "khumur".

Salaam all

This is what I understood from this link
What is clear from this paragraph is that the word "khimaar" does not show!!
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.

naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.

Wakas

peace Samia,

Thanks for the clarification. So "khumur" is used in 2431 and since this can be the plural of "khimir" (which can mean any covering) then in terms of Classical Arabic and grammar, it is perfectly acceptable to translate it as a general covering/veil and NOT a headcover.

Yes I know "khimaar" does not appear in the pic, I was referring to what came previously (found at the bottom of the middle column in Lane, page 445 in PRL)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000445.pdf

I guess I could have been clearer.

Samia

peace all,

You will know more about features of Arabic prose more so than me so I cant really comment if a shift would be logical or not.

Salaam Wakas

In fact this feature is not specific to arabic, but is universal in all languages. Try to make a sentence in English addressing a group, then shift the address to a different group in the middle of the sentence (without any extra word to allude to the second group).

Leoxyz

However, I think I understand what you mean. Is verse 55; 629 something you are looking for?

Men headcover.

Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"

For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".

Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover, but the famous poet Annaabighal Thubiaani used it to mean something like a "sarong". Another linguist says it is an "overall", worn over all the woman's clothes.

It seems that lisaanul3arab does not have a clear cut meaning for "head cover for women", it just says "it is said that..". However, it is used in hadeeth literature as head cover for men (specifically mentioned in relation to the prophet) according to lisaanul3arab

Salam
Absolutely wrong concept
The actual lisanul Arab text goes like this .

( 4 / 254)

Where are you finding that "Khimar is for men"??
Waiting for reply

Samia

Salam
Absolutely wrong concept
The actual lisanul Arab text goes like this .

( 4 / 254)

Where are you finding that "Khimar is for men"??
Waiting for reply

Salaam Leoxyz

First of all I apologize for the belated reply, as I was not online for the past four or five days.

The difference between your post and mine is that you copied what lisanul3arab said and I translated the meaning. Otherwise, how do you understand the Arabic sentence you copied (translation and the khimar for the woman it is the naseef)? I expect you to ask then for whom is the "khimar" as head cover only? If you go on, you will find at the end of the paragraph a "hadith" by Umsalama where she stated that the prophet used to rub on "his khimar". Lisanul 3arab itself said "and it is said that the khimar is what the woman covers her head with", alienating itself from stating this as a linguistic fact, and not revisiting it anymore.

Moreover, when using the verb "takhammarat and ikhtamarat", lisanul3arab further stresses the "non-head-cover-only" meaning by saying takhammarat bil-khimar and ikhtamarat if she wears it and covered her head by it. The point is in "wears ...and covers" which is to be understood as something to be worn first and not just a piece of cloth to cover the head, unlike that of men, and more like a naseef (sarong; overall...)

It is also noteworthy that lisanul3arab did not mention verse 2431 which could be the only proof from a written document that khimar is a head-cover for women, but it did not, nor did it present any other proof. The word mentioned in this verse is "khumur", a broken plural, which, of course, could be the plural of khimaar, but could also be the plural of another word (as stated by brother Tanweer. Please follow the thread from the beginning). Lisanul3arab with its understanding that khimar is not a head-cover for women (but something like a sarong), does not consider this verse as proof of khimaar being head cover, which is what we were discussing. In short, and if you read the whole thread, you will understand how lisanul3arab considers khimar as head-cover for men, not for women, but for women it is like a naseef.

Leoxyz

Salaam Leoxyz

First of all I apologize for the belated reply, as I was not online for the past four or five days.

The difference between your post and mine is that you copied what lisanul3arab said and I translated the meaning. Otherwise, how do you understand the Arabic sentence you copied (translation and the khimar for the woman it is the naseef)? I expect you to ask then for whom is the "khimar" as head cover only? If you go on, you will find at the end of the paragraph a "hadith" by Umsalama where she stated that the prophet used to rub on "his khimar". Lisanul 3arab itself said "and it is said that the khimar is what the woman covers her head with", alienating itself from stating this as a linguistic fact, and not revisiting it anymore.

Moreover, when using the verb "takhammarat and ikhtamarat", lisanul3arab further stresses the "non-head-cover-only" meaning by saying takhammarat bil-khimar and ikhtamarat if she wears it and covered her head by it. The point is in "wears ...and covers" which is to be understood as something to be worn first and not just a piece of cloth to cover the head, unlike that of men, and more like a naseef (sarong; overall...)

It is also noteworthy that lisanul3arab did not mention verse 2431 which could be the only proof from a written document that khimar is a head-cover for women, but it did not, nor did it present any other proof. The word mentioned in this verse is "khumur", a broken plural, which, of course, could be the plural of khimaar, but could also be the plural of another word (as stated by brother Tanweer. Please follow the thread from the beginning). Lisanul3arab with its understanding that khimar is not a head-cover for women (but something like a sarong), does not consider this verse as proof of khimaar being head cover, which is what we were discussing. In short, and if you read the whole thread, you will understand how lisanul3arab considers khimar as head-cover for men, not for women, but for women it is like a naseef.

Dear Samia
Thanks for reply.
Would you please translate the arabic text which I put from Lisaan ul Arab into English?.
So we should know what we understand from this text.
Thanks

Samia

Dear Samia
Thanks for reply.
Would you please translate the arabic text which I put from Lisaan ul Arab into English?.
So we should know what we understand from this text.
Thanks

Salaam Leoxyz

Actually, the translation is there in the first paragraph of my post

Leoxyz

Salaam Leoxyz

Actually, the translation is there in the first paragraph of my post

Dear Samia
If that is your translation ,the I think you are badly mistaken (sorry to say)
In fact "Khimaar" is any thing which covers any other thing.It is used also for
Woman - then called "Khimaar" or "Naseef "(both names)
Man - In them turban is called "Khimaar."
If you go to Lanes' Lexicon that very clear definitions.

( 1 / 2785)

(translation=Any thing which covers any other thing is "Khimaar" .From it woman's khimaar is with which she covers her head .Its plural is "akhmirah or kummur&quot
Mujaamul Wasit has more elaborative definition
( ) ( ) ( )
Translation
Alkhimaar ,anything which covers.From it is woman's khimar and that is the cloth with which she covers her head and from it is turban because the man covers his head with it and turns it below his jaws.In Hadith ,Verily he used to rub his khiff(socks) and khimar i.e Turban.
Better you visit studyquran website and read about Khimar from Lane's it will clear every thing.
So ,I do not think your concept that
"Naseef is for women and Khimaar is for men" is correct.No doubt Naseef is synonymous with Khimaar.
For Naseef ,Mujaamul Wasit writes
( ) ( ) ( )
Alnaseef has three meanings

Half of anything
Anything which covers the head which is Khimaar or Turban
That who serves]

( 1 / 6140)

Mehjar = cloth which covers the head

( 1 / 6140)

It is said ,that Alnaseef = Turban and everything which covers the head is called "Naseef"

Samia

Salaam Leoxyz

Do you mean that all your post is the translation of "the Arabic text which you put from Lisaan ul Arab"? Or is it "what we understand from this text"?

You ask me about a sentence to translate, and when I do, you tell me that I am mistaken without showing where I went wrong on this particular translation, or showing how you would translate it? What does all you wrote have to do with either your initial question or the second one?

My dear, you are going off topic, and I've had enough of this "khimaar-therefore-cover-your-heads" issue. I am comfortable withh what I understand. You are not being asked to "cover" your head, so why do you want to discuss it to cover someone else's head? (assuming that you are a male). If you are a sister, cover your head, sister, and leave my head alone. "The best of you with God are the most righteous" and that is the issue.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but you are new here and I have been discussing this on and off all my life, so please forgive me.

Leoxyz

Salaam Leoxyz

Do you mean that all your post is the translation of "the Arabic text which you put from Lisaan ul Arab"? Or is it "what we understand from this text"?

You ask me about a sentence to translate, and when I do, you tell me that I am mistaken without showing where I went wrong on this particular translation, or showing how you would translate it? What does all you wrote have to do with either your initial question or the second one?

My dear, you are going off topic, and I've had enough of this "khimaar-therefore-cover-your-heads" issue. I am comfortable withh what I understand. You are not being asked to "cover" your head, so why do you want to discuss it to cover someone else's head? (assuming that you are a male). If you are a sister, cover your head, sister, and leave my head alone. "The best of you with God are the most righteous" and that is the issue.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but you are new here and I have been discussing this on and off all my life, so please forgive me.

Dear Samia
The question is not who is cover his head .
The question is what is "Khimaar" and for what it is used for.
You said that Khimaar is not for females.
I gave you the references from all Arabic dictionaries.Instead of being harsh refute with references as I have put .
You did not put even a single reference
The exact Lisan ul Arab text which I have put before.

= And Khimar is for the woman

= And that is Naseef
= And "Al-khimar is said to be anything with which a woman covers her head .

If you have some reference bring out .I will appreciate.You have been discussing this topic ,that is good.But I need proper references .

Samia

Salaam Leoxyz

Your first question was how I reached that understanding in the old post. I explained it, starting by translating what you copied from Lisanul 3arab. You then asked me to give a translation of what you provided, and I told you that I have already done. What references should I bring? For my understanding? It is an understanding of a sentence from Lisanul 3arab, that's all.

My only proof from lisanul 3arab that either "khumur" in verse 2431 is not the plural of "khimaar"; or if it is, it does not mean "head cover" is that Lisanul 3arab did not quote this verse as a proof for "khimaar=head cover, or khumur= plural of khimaar", or even as related to this entry in any way. Yet, it brought a hadith to prove that "khimaar =head cover for men".

Do other dictionaries quote this verse (2431)?

SwedenMajidah

Peace,

Thanks Samia for really making this clear. And I also find it very intresting that not the verse 2431 is mention as a reference in lisanul arab.

Sis Majidah

Leoxyz

Salaam Leoxyz

My only proof from lisanul 3arab that either "khumur" in verse 2431 is not the plural of "khimaar"; or if it is, it does not mean "head cover" is that Lisanul 3arab did not quote this verse as a proof for "khimaar=head cover, or khumur= plural of khimaar", or even as related to this entry in any way. Yet, it brought a hadith to prove that "khimaar =head cover for men".

Do other dictionaries quote this verse (2431)?

Dear Samia
How can you say that the word "khumur " used in the Aya

is not the plural of "Khimaar "
Some evidence is either right or wrong.Nothing in-between.So there are no ifs and buts.Khumur is either Plural or not ,nothing in -between.
Look at Lisaan Ul Arab ;

( 4 / 254)

So lisaan ul Arb says that plural of "Khimaar is "khumur" (highlighted)
As far as your saying that because lisan ul Arb is not bringing this aya as an evidence ,so in this aya this meaning is not acceptable.This logic is not correct.Lisan ul arb is a dictionary of classical Arabic and has quoted many quranic Ayaat .But it does not mean if it does not quote some aya ,then that aya loses some meaning.
The well known and widely accepted Quranic dictionary of Imam Raghib in Mufradaat says;

} {

Same meaning of Khimaar and has quoted your required Aya.
I have uploaded below the a small para from Lane.
Hope it helps

SwedenMajidah

Peace,

So if this khimar is a headcovering for both males and females as your references claims and also quotes 2431 as a reference then why are no one today use that word for their headcoverings?

I have never heard a woman say, I will put on my khimar, but she says I will put on my hijjab and my abaya or such.

I still doubt that surah 2431 is about headcovering but it can refer to any cloth that cover her breast/cloveage as the surah states.

And it's very strange that Quran which are ment to be for all people for all times have this kind of dress codes which is more suitable for people living in extreme climate zones(heat,sandstorms).

So maybe this dress codes have been weared out and the dress of modesty is for all woman to decide for her own.

Because I guess the intelligence are higher these days than back on the time of the Prophet Muhammad !?

Sis Majidah

Leoxyz

Peace,

So if this khimar is a headcovering for both males and females as your references claims and also quotes 2431 as a reference then why are no one today use that word for their headcoverings?

I have never heard a woman say, I will put on my khimar, but she says I will put on my hijjab and my abaya or such.

I still doubt that surah 2431 is about headcovering but it can refer to any cloth that cover her breast/cloveage as the surah states.

And it's very strange that Quran which are ment to be for all people for all times have this kind of dress codes which is more suitable for people living in extreme climate zones(heat,sandstorms).

So maybe this dress codes have been weared out and the dress of modesty is for all woman to decide for her own.

Because I guess the intelligence are higher these days than back on the time of the Prophet Muhammad !?

Sis Majidah

Dear
you are at liberty to think and do whatever you consider correct.No one can enforce you.If the females and males are half naked ,who can stop them.
But kindly do not fire from the shoulder of the Quran or Deen.

Samia

Dear Samia
How can you say that the word "khumur " used in the Aya

is not the plural of "Khimaar "

Salaam Leoxyz

You tend to leave the evidence and jump to what I wrote. First, I did not say khumur is not the plural of khimaar, fullstop. I was trying to analyze why Lisanul 3arab does not quote this verse.

Secondly, I put khimaar between brackets, meaning this meaning of khimaar as head-cover for women. This is not strange in Arabic. "kut-taab" is the plural of "kaatib writer" but not the plural of "kaatib clerk". There are many examples like this. Lisanul 3arab does not recognize "khimaar head cover for women" and that's why it says "and it is said that the khimaar is what the woman covers her head with " . IT IS SAID, not what Lisanul 3arab says.

There are other words that have the plural "khumur". Remember that broken plurals do not have a rule, and nouns do not have a rule as how to have their plurals, except very few one word can have more than one plural, and one plural can serve many words.

Leoxyz

Salaam Leoxyz

You tend to leave the evidence and jump to what I wrote. First, I did not say khumur is not the plural of khimaar, fullstop. I was trying to analyze why Lisanul 3arab does not quote this verse.

Secondly, I put khimaar between brackets, meaning this meaning of khimaar as head-cover for women. This is not strange in Arabic. "kut-taab" is the plural of "kaatib writer" but not the plural of "kaatib clerk". There are many examples like this. Lisanul 3arab does not recognize "khimaar head cover for women" and that's why it says "and it is said that the khimaar is what the woman covers her head with " . IT IS SAID, not what Lisanul 3arab says.

There are other words that have the plural "khumur". Remember that broken plurals do not have a rule, and nouns do not have a rule as how to have their plurals, except very few one word can have more than one plural, and one plural can serve many words.

Sorry Samia;
Again mistaken you are.
As far words "qeela" or "yoqaalo" are concerned these are used very frequently in arabic dictionary when giving the meanings.Tajul aroos and Lisan ul Arb and 'Almohkam use this terminology very commonly.
Secondly, give me a single reference in which "Khumur" is plural of any other word.
In one of your post in this thread you said

Salaam all

This is what I understood from this link
What is clear from this paragraph is that the word "khimaar" does not show!!
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.

naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.

Alhamdullilah I have a lot of stuff for research.I will not hesitate for a second to accept the truth.But proper reference is required.
I do not believe in "without reference " stuff.Because it is the question of the interpretation of the Quran.
In my last post I have uploaded the Lane's defination of the "Khimaar",.

Samia

Salaam

I know your fingers are just itching to type mistaken.
This is not to say I do not make mistakes..that would be rediculous. But before thinking...and now before even reading, you jump to your guns. Can you be a bit quiet and patient if you are genuinely asking questions? However, if your aim is to attack for the sake of attacking, I am not at all interested in sharing this time- wasting game with you. I do welcome anyone to show me where I am mistaken, and I will own to it. You have to show the spirit of discussion, and not of assault.

Back to your post. You ask if there is another word whose plural is khumur, and without thinking, you quote another old post of mine (thank you very much, because in it is the answer for your question). Have your eyes wide open and read. beware, don't mix "khimaar" with "khimir".

khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.

naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.

As for "It is said", yes, it is frequent in dictionaries... did I say it is rare to find "it is said"? And of course you have to find it in dictionaries, where else? It is an expression of uncertainity.

Can you find in the dictionary under, for example, "mayyett" "It is said that when the soul leaves the body the person is called mayyet?" whatever