Why?
-
Peace idolfree, all
your post reminds me of the book Mind Over Mood. Change how you feel by changing the way you think (Greenberger & Padesky.1995) It is a psychology book, but as you have said many times everything is interconnected, and after all, we need a way or a method to be able to programme our subconcious, I think a good next step would be to find, explore and develop that method or technique.
-
Why is it that when a person decides to do something, like stop smoking, or beginning a diet or exercise, or any type of change in behavior, does it follow that the person continues to follow the same pattern of behavior most times?
The problem is that man thinks he is independent and can accomplish things on his own. If only he would know that he cannot even breathe without the permission of Allah, so how can he expect to accomplish quitting smoking or losing weight without Allah Most High and Holy be his Name being out of the equation?
Nay, but man does indeed transgress all bounds, in that he looks upon himself as being self-sufficient (Al-Alaq 966-7)
But the remedy for all such afflictions which he desires to vanquish is to turn completely to his Lord and put his entire trust in Him. In this way he will not only lose anxiety over matters which he has no control over, but through steadfast prayer and supplication, Allah the exalted will out of His pure grace bestow upon him all of his needs and take care of all of his worries!
Covey, therefore, the glad tidings
to those who have placed their trust in my God.
Holy is He who watches over His servant
and bestows a portion of His bounty upon him.
Aye! Holy is my Lord the Most Beneficient, the Most Merciful,
let His praise be constantly generating from your tongues,
O wretched one,
that you too may obtain of His grace. -
Salam,
The subconcious(nafs) is our animal to tame, we are resposible for doing so. This teaching(quran) states that "he who purifies it succeeds and he who corrupts it fails". So our job is to tame the animal...purify it so that instead of pulling you to that which you dont want to do (smoke..eat junk food..cheat on your spouse, etc), the subconcious will push you towards the proper behavior.
Although what you are saying may be true to a point, I believe that you fail to understand the entire scope of the idea. You mention certain obvious behaviors such as "smoking, eating junk food, cheating on your spouse etc." and then you mention "proper" behavior.
I believe that you fail to mention that there is so much more to the "programming" that includes such things as how the subconcious is programmed to follow a long line of programming that also includes the world of the so called "proper." This so called proper includes work, school, money, exercise, morality etc... however when looked futher into this false set of "proper behaviour" we can see that they also lead to negative aspects which are akin to smoking, eating junk food, cheating etc.
-
Peace
Salam,
Although what you are saying may be true to a point, I believe that you fail to understand the entire scope of the idea. You mention certain obvious behaviors such as "smoking, eating junk food, cheating on your spouse etc." and then you mention "proper" behavior.
I believe that you fail to mention that there is so much more to the "programming" that includes such things as how the subconcious is programmed to follow a long line of programming that also includes the world of the so called "proper." This so called proper includes work, school, money, exercise, morality etc... however when looked futher into this false set of "proper behaviour" we can see that they also lead to negative aspects which are akin to smoking, eating junk food, cheating etc.
Thats a very good point brother.
Peace
-
Salam,
Although what you are saying may be true to a point, I believe that you fail to understand the entire scope of the idea. You mention certain obvious behaviors such as "smoking, eating junk food, cheating on your spouse etc." and then you mention "proper" behavior.
I believe that you fail to mention that there is so much more to the "programming" that includes such things as how the subconcious is programmed to follow a long line of programming that also includes the world of the so called "proper." This so called proper includes work, school, money, exercise, morality etc... however when looked futher into this false set of "proper behaviour" we can see that they also lead to negative aspects which are akin to smoking, eating junk food, cheating etc.
I don't get it, can you explain this?
peace -
Peace
I don't get it, can you explain this?
peaceDont mean to interrupt, but what I got from it is that "proper behavior" is mostly programmed into our thinking. Much like religion and traditions. Therefore what we may see as proper isnt necessarily so.
Peace
-
Peace
peace amuslim,
thanks for the clarification. But we can know what is proper and what isn't. We know what's right and wrong. So we program right (proper) things into us and get rid of the wrong stuff.I agree on it at a basic level. However most things in life is indeed programmed into us. The way we talk, the way we eat, everything. What makes for example cannibalism wrong? Is it even wrong? Society would state that it was wrong, therefore that would be "proper behavior" not to do it. Does it really make it proper? Also, whats proper in one group/country/etc. is not necessarily proper in another. Sorry if it sounds confusing.
Peace
-
Salam,
Peace
Dont mean to interrupt, but what I got from it is that "proper behavior" is mostly programmed into our thinking. Much like religion and traditions. Therefore what we may see as proper isnt necessarily so.
PeacePlease interrupt more often!!
I agree, there is a set of rules that we follow based on a certain system (religion). This system, as we have been born into, is a tradition that has been proven and shown time and time again not to work.
There is the religion of work.. the religion of academia, religion of money... the religion of self preservation etc. Many of the aspects within these systems are known to us as "proper" behaviour. Also, one can easily put these "different" systems together and find the system that has "programmed" the individual falsely into believing in certain behaviour to be "superior" ove another.
If asked who is better a college student or a drug addict, the "programmed" response is the college student. This response is very often done without any further investigation into the either person etc.
Here is an example of this type of programming
If she follows the Quran only then why does she wear a sectarien hijab?
Please click the link to that thread to get a better idea of the context (if needed).
The notion of judging a person simply on their dress is part of this "programming" that hinders growth, knowledge, experience.. etc. Please note that I thought this was a very nice example of this type of "programming". I'm not saying this is who Layth is but rather thank him for giving us a nice window into his "self".
I thought that's the reason we have quran? hmm
ideally! but... hmm hmm is right! If in fact we could use the Quran alone to come to these types of desicions then why is there so many posts on this site alone that come to arguments over words or letters within the Quran? Also, many of the ideas and notions spouted on this site based on the Quran alone can very easily be attribuited to personal reasons as well as the "programming" of society that is merely deemed as "proper behaviour."
The root of the issue arises from the neglagence of the instincts of a human being. These instincts become dull as the mind takes over. Once the mind takes over then there is an imbalance in action, perseption, experience etc.
-
The notion of judging a person simply on their dress is part of this "programming" that hinders growth, knowledge, experience.. etc. Please note that I thought this was a very nice example of this type of "programming". I'm not saying this is who Layth is but rather thank him for giving us a nice window into his "self".
That's the whole point (of Kyle's post) right? If one of our habits is hindering or growth or harming ourselves/others, then we get rid of it.
I agree on it at a basic level. However most things in life is indeed programmed into us. The way we talk, the way we eat, everything. What makes for example cannibalism wrong? Is it even wrong? Society would state that it was wrong, therefore that would be "proper behavior" not to do it. Does it really make it proper? Also, whats proper in one group/country/etc. is not necessarily proper in another. Sorry if it sounds confusing.
I think deciding what's right and wrong is very complicated, there isn't one size fits all answer to it. Generally, killing people is wrong, so I guess eating them is too. But what if you're killing others to survive? Then the rules change.
-
Salam,
That's the whole point (of Kyle's post) right? If one of our habits is hindering or growth or harming ourselves/others, then we get rid of it.
Whole?
I think deciding what's right and wrong is very complicated, there isn't one size fits all answer to it.
Then how do you know which habit is harming yourself or others for that matter? So what was the whole point again?
-
Right/wrong is subjective... yes there are some black and white issues where we know right and wrong... but the greyer issues... who knows?
What if through prior faulty programming your view of right/wrong is damaged (whatever part of the brain that is)
I do agree with the general point Idolfree is making
-
Basically the voice in your head is what makes it hard for you to do certain things in life because the voice in your head is what is known as the ego, the EGO is the shaitan, the devil, satan. We all have the devil within us, this is why when we feel jealous for example we can see that we are being jealous and actually want to get rid of the emotion which is actually caused by the voice in your head (shaitan), so basically we can be aware of our shaitan. Our goal in life is not to focus on quitting smoking, exercising, or do other things that requires "improving" ourselves. The purpose of life is to get rid of the ego, this is known as EGO-DEATH, or Samsara, or Enlightenment, or ISLAM (surrender the EGO or the false self). God has put the ego there to test us, the ego feeds off pleasure, that is why the God keeps telling us that we should not let this world of pleasures be a distraction to us and that paradise is what we should focus on. When you no longer feed the EGO, it will eventually die. This is what the JIHAD is. The battle between you and your ego. This is where resurrection comes in, when you kill the ego you are sort of reborn, your mind is completely in your control, no more thoughts that trigger negative emotions and actions, when the ego is gone you live in COMPLETE PEACE AND JOY, Buddha defined enlightenment as "THE END OF SUFFERING", paradise!. It is the uncontrollable voice in your head that is greedy, self centered, jealous, unfulfilled, etc... The bible says SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.. the kingdom of heaven is basically killing the ego and being returned to GOD as the quran says over and over.
Every "religion" teaches us the same thing, deny yourself till the point of complete surrender. This is what Jesus meant when he said, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." The cross is a symbol of self denial, basically it is the letter "I" crossed out, this is the path to paradise. All holy books that came through by means of revelation have this exact same message at its core.
Just like you said, consciousness is what is left, that consciousness is the ego less state we are to strive for.
-
Salam,
when it happens, you know.
When what happens & what is that you think you'll know?Plus what is the "whole" point? If you read Kyles he states
So our job is to tame the animal...purify it so that instead of pulling you to that which you dont want to do (smoke..eat junk food..cheat on your spouse, etc), the subconcious will push you towards the proper behavior.
To me this sounds like the personal litany of Kyle. Yet, the way he words it is more than that. He says, "So our job is to... " Our? What would make Kyle come to such conclusions.. what programming has led him to these types of ideas that it's not only "his" job.. but all of the sudden... "ours"
what alternative are you suggesting?
Alternative? What's that? How about starting with simple understanding. A play on words can have some with a certain programming say words like "consciousness."
If you'd like suggestions, first of all, I'd like to suggest to Babak, if he hears voices in his head that makes it hard for him to do certain things in life, he probably needs to have better dialog with those "voices" or stop listening to them all together. There is help that he can get with those voices if he comes to a point where he can't help himself anymore. I'm sure there are many here who can help him within his own area. Also, I'd like to suggest to Babak to read some Thomas Moore on the issue of jealousy because I believe he sums it up as nicely as I've ever read, saw, or heard before. Actually since babak seems to be stuck on the "ego" trip, perhaps pick up the book "care of the soul" by Mr. Moore. Babak might actually enjoy it. ) btw... welcome
And mostly I like to suggest that by mixing all of man's systems (religions) into mush brings about only the understanding of why it led someone to post such things as
The cross is a symbol of self denial, basically it is the letter "I" crossed out, this is the path to paradise. All holy books that came through by means of revelation have this exact same message at its core.
and this
Just like you said, consciousness is what is left, that consciousness is the ego less state we are to strive for.
Parroting what is said in the books of men without understanding is not only akin to... well.. Surah 6205 but the statement above about "consciousness is the ego less state" negates the definition of "consciousness" itself.
Much like bro Kyle seems to be saying here too
if "you" are responsible for the nafs(subconcious)...meaning you are APART from the subconcious studying it and taming it with proper thoughts and images repeated to make new nueral connections...then who are "you"? You are conciousness itself.
It is asinine (lost in the mind) to have go through such a twisted road to come to the simple conclusion that yes... you, me, we are conciousness itself! and of course each of us are responsible for our own nafs but that does not make the subconcious and "you" APART.
peace -
peace Mehdi,
If you don't like Kyle saying what "our" job is, then you can't possibly tell Babak what he should do, can you?
stop coming up with ridiculous ways to criticize people. I'm sure Kyle is a facist elitist too who's trying to take over the world, right?So you are saying that me and my subconscious are the same? Can you explain that last sentence?
What I meant is this
If I have been conditioned to dislike vegetables, I don't eat them, and because of that my health suffers. If I see that there's a problem and I know what the problem is, then I work to get rid of it. The "whole" point of Kyle's post is that it isn't just a matter of deciding I'll eat my veggies from now on, you have to re-condition yourself. -
stop coming up with ridiculous ways to criticize people. I'm sure Kyle is a facist elitist too who's trying to take over the world, right?
As always you jump to your own conclusions... this may be part of your subconscious programming as bro Kyle is describing. Yet as you are also programmed to judge "certain" ways of so called "critizism" (using you own words thus your own program) you make your own conclusions based on your programming and your own subconscious mind. So since both you and your subconscious mind is effecting your behaviour, then they both belong to you and are not seperate from you. Yet, it is your responsiblity to come to understand these things and "tame the animal" (as verbage used from part of bro Kyles' program). But once again.. they are not APART.
If you don't like Kyle saying what "our" job is, then you can't possibly tell Babak what he should do, can you?
Wrong again! I never "told" Babak what he should do. You asked for suggestions... I gave suggestions. -*
-
Peace brother
Salam,
Please interrupt more often!!
I agree, there is a set of rules that we follow based on a certain system (religion). This system, as we have been born into, is a tradition that has been proven and shown time and time again not to work.
There is the religion of work.. the religion of academia, religion of money... the religion of self preservation etc. Many of the aspects within these systems are known to us as "proper" behaviour. Also, one can easily put these "different" systems together and find the system that has "programmed" the individual falsely into believing in certain behaviour to be "superior" ove another.
If asked who is better a college student or a drug addict, the "programmed" response is the college student. This response is very often done without any further investigation into the either person etc.
Here is an example of this type of programming
Very good example once again and I totally agree. I wonder what exactly is the "real way" to things. Is emotions programmed as well? I tend to think so, however we probably have a basic level of it without the programming. Well it probably really isnt emotions, just instincts, like protection, mothers, etc.
Peace
-
Salam,
I wonder what exactly is the "real way" to things. Is emotions programmed as well? I tend to think so, however we probably have a basic level of it without the programming. Well it probably really isnt emotions, just instincts, like protection, mothers, etc.
I pray that we all wonder the same at some point. I believe emotions are part of our make up, yet the programming triggers how these emotions are played out. Since instincts have been neglected and set aside we react more emotionally than our instincts would justify. Emotions are a wonderful factulty. They teach and inspire much, both good and bad.
As an example, it's been asserted that one of the ways the human being has come to understand empathy is through pity. And pity is simply brought about by an instinct of self presavation. From there a long list of academic set of morality is set out and within the academic set we find many reasons or "agendas" that may once again be attribuited back to instinct in conjuction with the mind yet our own existance here and now with the issues that we are confronted on a daily basis shows that this set of instinct and mind is out of balance. What happens when there is an inbalance between the two, instinct and mind? Where does the soul fit into all of this? What do you think?
peace.