Why?
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Salam,
Peace
Dont mean to interrupt, but what I got from it is that "proper behavior" is mostly programmed into our thinking. Much like religion and traditions. Therefore what we may see as proper isnt necessarily so.
PeacePlease interrupt more often!!
I agree, there is a set of rules that we follow based on a certain system (religion). This system, as we have been born into, is a tradition that has been proven and shown time and time again not to work.
There is the religion of work.. the religion of academia, religion of money... the religion of self preservation etc. Many of the aspects within these systems are known to us as "proper" behaviour. Also, one can easily put these "different" systems together and find the system that has "programmed" the individual falsely into believing in certain behaviour to be "superior" ove another.
If asked who is better a college student or a drug addict, the "programmed" response is the college student. This response is very often done without any further investigation into the either person etc.
Here is an example of this type of programming
If she follows the Quran only then why does she wear a sectarien hijab?
Please click the link to that thread to get a better idea of the context (if needed).
The notion of judging a person simply on their dress is part of this "programming" that hinders growth, knowledge, experience.. etc. Please note that I thought this was a very nice example of this type of "programming". I'm not saying this is who Layth is but rather thank him for giving us a nice window into his "self".
I thought that's the reason we have quran? hmm
ideally! but... hmm hmm is right! If in fact we could use the Quran alone to come to these types of desicions then why is there so many posts on this site alone that come to arguments over words or letters within the Quran? Also, many of the ideas and notions spouted on this site based on the Quran alone can very easily be attribuited to personal reasons as well as the "programming" of society that is merely deemed as "proper behaviour."
The root of the issue arises from the neglagence of the instincts of a human being. These instincts become dull as the mind takes over. Once the mind takes over then there is an imbalance in action, perseption, experience etc.
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The notion of judging a person simply on their dress is part of this "programming" that hinders growth, knowledge, experience.. etc. Please note that I thought this was a very nice example of this type of "programming". I'm not saying this is who Layth is but rather thank him for giving us a nice window into his "self".
That's the whole point (of Kyle's post) right? If one of our habits is hindering or growth or harming ourselves/others, then we get rid of it.
I agree on it at a basic level. However most things in life is indeed programmed into us. The way we talk, the way we eat, everything. What makes for example cannibalism wrong? Is it even wrong? Society would state that it was wrong, therefore that would be "proper behavior" not to do it. Does it really make it proper? Also, whats proper in one group/country/etc. is not necessarily proper in another. Sorry if it sounds confusing.
I think deciding what's right and wrong is very complicated, there isn't one size fits all answer to it. Generally, killing people is wrong, so I guess eating them is too. But what if you're killing others to survive? Then the rules change.
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Salam,
That's the whole point (of Kyle's post) right? If one of our habits is hindering or growth or harming ourselves/others, then we get rid of it.
Whole?
I think deciding what's right and wrong is very complicated, there isn't one size fits all answer to it.
Then how do you know which habit is harming yourself or others for that matter? So what was the whole point again?
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Right/wrong is subjective... yes there are some black and white issues where we know right and wrong... but the greyer issues... who knows?
What if through prior faulty programming your view of right/wrong is damaged (whatever part of the brain that is)
I do agree with the general point Idolfree is making
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Basically the voice in your head is what makes it hard for you to do certain things in life because the voice in your head is what is known as the ego, the EGO is the shaitan, the devil, satan. We all have the devil within us, this is why when we feel jealous for example we can see that we are being jealous and actually want to get rid of the emotion which is actually caused by the voice in your head (shaitan), so basically we can be aware of our shaitan. Our goal in life is not to focus on quitting smoking, exercising, or do other things that requires "improving" ourselves. The purpose of life is to get rid of the ego, this is known as EGO-DEATH, or Samsara, or Enlightenment, or ISLAM (surrender the EGO or the false self). God has put the ego there to test us, the ego feeds off pleasure, that is why the God keeps telling us that we should not let this world of pleasures be a distraction to us and that paradise is what we should focus on. When you no longer feed the EGO, it will eventually die. This is what the JIHAD is. The battle between you and your ego. This is where resurrection comes in, when you kill the ego you are sort of reborn, your mind is completely in your control, no more thoughts that trigger negative emotions and actions, when the ego is gone you live in COMPLETE PEACE AND JOY, Buddha defined enlightenment as "THE END OF SUFFERING", paradise!. It is the uncontrollable voice in your head that is greedy, self centered, jealous, unfulfilled, etc... The bible says SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.. the kingdom of heaven is basically killing the ego and being returned to GOD as the quran says over and over.
Every "religion" teaches us the same thing, deny yourself till the point of complete surrender. This is what Jesus meant when he said, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." The cross is a symbol of self denial, basically it is the letter "I" crossed out, this is the path to paradise. All holy books that came through by means of revelation have this exact same message at its core.
Just like you said, consciousness is what is left, that consciousness is the ego less state we are to strive for.
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Salam,
when it happens, you know.
When what happens & what is that you think you'll know?Plus what is the "whole" point? If you read Kyles he states
So our job is to tame the animal...purify it so that instead of pulling you to that which you dont want to do (smoke..eat junk food..cheat on your spouse, etc), the subconcious will push you towards the proper behavior.
To me this sounds like the personal litany of Kyle. Yet, the way he words it is more than that. He says, "So our job is to... " Our? What would make Kyle come to such conclusions.. what programming has led him to these types of ideas that it's not only "his" job.. but all of the sudden... "ours"
what alternative are you suggesting?
Alternative? What's that? How about starting with simple understanding. A play on words can have some with a certain programming say words like "consciousness."
If you'd like suggestions, first of all, I'd like to suggest to Babak, if he hears voices in his head that makes it hard for him to do certain things in life, he probably needs to have better dialog with those "voices" or stop listening to them all together. There is help that he can get with those voices if he comes to a point where he can't help himself anymore. I'm sure there are many here who can help him within his own area. Also, I'd like to suggest to Babak to read some Thomas Moore on the issue of jealousy because I believe he sums it up as nicely as I've ever read, saw, or heard before. Actually since babak seems to be stuck on the "ego" trip, perhaps pick up the book "care of the soul" by Mr. Moore. Babak might actually enjoy it. ) btw... welcome
And mostly I like to suggest that by mixing all of man's systems (religions) into mush brings about only the understanding of why it led someone to post such things as
The cross is a symbol of self denial, basically it is the letter "I" crossed out, this is the path to paradise. All holy books that came through by means of revelation have this exact same message at its core.
and this
Just like you said, consciousness is what is left, that consciousness is the ego less state we are to strive for.
Parroting what is said in the books of men without understanding is not only akin to... well.. Surah 6205 but the statement above about "consciousness is the ego less state" negates the definition of "consciousness" itself.
Much like bro Kyle seems to be saying here too
if "you" are responsible for the nafs(subconcious)...meaning you are APART from the subconcious studying it and taming it with proper thoughts and images repeated to make new nueral connections...then who are "you"? You are conciousness itself.
It is asinine (lost in the mind) to have go through such a twisted road to come to the simple conclusion that yes... you, me, we are conciousness itself! and of course each of us are responsible for our own nafs but that does not make the subconcious and "you" APART.
peace -
peace Mehdi,
If you don't like Kyle saying what "our" job is, then you can't possibly tell Babak what he should do, can you?
stop coming up with ridiculous ways to criticize people. I'm sure Kyle is a facist elitist too who's trying to take over the world, right?So you are saying that me and my subconscious are the same? Can you explain that last sentence?
What I meant is this
If I have been conditioned to dislike vegetables, I don't eat them, and because of that my health suffers. If I see that there's a problem and I know what the problem is, then I work to get rid of it. The "whole" point of Kyle's post is that it isn't just a matter of deciding I'll eat my veggies from now on, you have to re-condition yourself. -
stop coming up with ridiculous ways to criticize people. I'm sure Kyle is a facist elitist too who's trying to take over the world, right?
As always you jump to your own conclusions... this may be part of your subconscious programming as bro Kyle is describing. Yet as you are also programmed to judge "certain" ways of so called "critizism" (using you own words thus your own program) you make your own conclusions based on your programming and your own subconscious mind. So since both you and your subconscious mind is effecting your behaviour, then they both belong to you and are not seperate from you. Yet, it is your responsiblity to come to understand these things and "tame the animal" (as verbage used from part of bro Kyles' program). But once again.. they are not APART.
If you don't like Kyle saying what "our" job is, then you can't possibly tell Babak what he should do, can you?
Wrong again! I never "told" Babak what he should do. You asked for suggestions... I gave suggestions. -*
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Peace brother
Salam,
Please interrupt more often!!
I agree, there is a set of rules that we follow based on a certain system (religion). This system, as we have been born into, is a tradition that has been proven and shown time and time again not to work.
There is the religion of work.. the religion of academia, religion of money... the religion of self preservation etc. Many of the aspects within these systems are known to us as "proper" behaviour. Also, one can easily put these "different" systems together and find the system that has "programmed" the individual falsely into believing in certain behaviour to be "superior" ove another.
If asked who is better a college student or a drug addict, the "programmed" response is the college student. This response is very often done without any further investigation into the either person etc.
Here is an example of this type of programming
Very good example once again and I totally agree. I wonder what exactly is the "real way" to things. Is emotions programmed as well? I tend to think so, however we probably have a basic level of it without the programming. Well it probably really isnt emotions, just instincts, like protection, mothers, etc.
Peace
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Salam,
I wonder what exactly is the "real way" to things. Is emotions programmed as well? I tend to think so, however we probably have a basic level of it without the programming. Well it probably really isnt emotions, just instincts, like protection, mothers, etc.
I pray that we all wonder the same at some point. I believe emotions are part of our make up, yet the programming triggers how these emotions are played out. Since instincts have been neglected and set aside we react more emotionally than our instincts would justify. Emotions are a wonderful factulty. They teach and inspire much, both good and bad.
As an example, it's been asserted that one of the ways the human being has come to understand empathy is through pity. And pity is simply brought about by an instinct of self presavation. From there a long list of academic set of morality is set out and within the academic set we find many reasons or "agendas" that may once again be attribuited back to instinct in conjuction with the mind yet our own existance here and now with the issues that we are confronted on a daily basis shows that this set of instinct and mind is out of balance. What happens when there is an inbalance between the two, instinct and mind? Where does the soul fit into all of this? What do you think?
peace.
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Peace
Salam,
I pray that we all wonder the same at some point. I believe emotions are part of our make up, yet the programming triggers how these emotions are played out. Since instincts have been neglected and set aside we react more emotionally than our instincts would justify. Emotions are a wonderful factulty. They teach and inspire much, both good and bad.
As an example, it's been asserted that one of the ways the human being has come to understand empathy is through pity. And pity is simply brought about by an instinct of self presavation. From there a long list of academic set of morality is set out and within the academic set we find many reasons or "agendas" that may once again be attribuited back to instinct in conjuction with the mind yet our own existance here and now with the issues that we are confronted on a daily basis shows that this set of instinct and mind is out of balance. What happens when there is an inbalance between the two, instinct and mind? Where does the soul fit into all of this? What do you think?
peace.
We must question and verify all the time, that is what God tells us.
Thats a great way of describing the evolution of the emotions, never heard of that one before. I think thats the problem with the human being. Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power. Such as with King David
He said, "He is being unfair to you by asking to combine your sheep with his. Most people who combine their properties treat each other unfairly, except those who believe and work righteousness, and these are so few."
I guess we need to know the definition of a soul. Based on the Quran, all life has been "breathed in" by God. On a physical level, I guess we are just organic machines?
Peace
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Salam,
Such as with King David
He said, "He is being unfair to you by asking to combine your sheep with his. Most people who combine their properties treat each other unfairly, except those who believe and work righteousness, and these are so few."..and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance). 3824
Understood... and thank you for the helping me remember humility.
Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power.
Surah 3824. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
understand?
I guess we need to know the definition of a soul. Based on the Quran, all life has been "breathed in" by God. On a physical level, I guess we are just organic machines?
I agree... but I wonder how important are these machines in the entire scope as we've come to know?
peace -
Peace
Salam,
..and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance). 3824Understood... and thank you for the helping me remember humility.
Sureah 3424. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
understand?
Forgive me, but what exactly do you want me to understand? You quoted the same verse that I quoted so Im not quite sure?
I agree... but I wonder how important are these machines in the entire scope as we've come to know?
peace...Not saying that we are machines, but take God out of the equation and we could probably describe ourselves as it. Even with God in the equation, maybe we do function as a higher machine. Atoms, cells, electricity, chemicals, etc. all in our body and makes it function. Memory and experiences perhaps in the same way, yet we dont know yet.
Peace
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Salam,
Forgive me, but what exactly do you want me to understand? You quoted the same verse that I quoted so Im not quite sure?
Thank you for asking perhaps it's for my understanding as well.
Amuslim, in your opinion, why did "David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance)."
Did he give bad advice to the disputants?
Surah 38. Sad, (the Letter) Sad ( S )
21. Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber;
22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said "Fear not we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
23. "This man is my brother He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one Yet he says, 'commit her to my care,' and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech."
24. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
25. So We forgave him this (lapse) he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.
26. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth so judge thou between men in truth (and justice) Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah. for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account. -
Peace
Did he give bad advice to the disputants?
Surah 38. Sad, (the Letter) Sad ( S )
21. Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber;
22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said "Fear not we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
23. "This man is my brother He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one Yet he says, 'commit her to my care,' and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech."
24. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
25. So We forgave him this (lapse) he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.
26. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth so judge thou between men in truth (and justice) Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah. for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.Based on the way its worded that he was forgiven, it would seem so. However, what would you make of this message? Is it true or false?
"truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"
Exactly how did David fail this test if he did? Was it being too quick to judge the other man?
Peace
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Salam,
Thanks again for asking!
Based on the way its worded that he was forgiven, it would seem so. However, what would you make of this message? Is it true or false?
Allah is Merciful indeed! If by this message you mean, the verses we're talking about it, my humble opinion would be since we do not know more about the actual facts of the story and only have the few words to rely on.. then I would have to agree with David's decision. More input would definitly be needed to make a better judgement but, given the simplicity of the facts, I would even think the one brother with more sheep would give a few to his brother and help him cultivate them (even if one guessed that the brother only had one because of his lack of care for the sheep etc.) once again... More input is needed... eat but no worries.. I know how to fast.
"truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other
Truly! I doubt that the program has changed much in this aspect from then to now. Are there any Lawers in the house?
Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness,
True, yet we would have to take this into account the level of righteousness as within the Quran as a standard to make this work.
and how few are they?"
hmm
In my opinion, this is where David fell within this test. He fell from humility. That is why I thank you for helping me remember mine.Yet, found it strange that you made exactly the same "error" as David. ("error" from my point of view aka program, religion etc. etc understanding of these verses etc). when you said
Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power.
There is a difference from "many" as in "truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other" and "most" as in your comment. The word "most" in your comment is akin to the word "few" as in Davids. Thus my perception of wondering if you also understood the Verses you posted in this config.
Hope that helps. peace
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Peace
Salam,
Thanks again for asking!
Allah is Merciful indeed! If by this message you mean, the verses we're talking about it, my humble opinion would be since we do not know more about the actual facts of the story and only have the few words to rely on.. then I would have to agree with David's decision. More input would definitly be needed to make a better judgement but, given the simplicity of the facts, I would even think the one brother with more sheep would give a few to his brother and help him cultivate them (even if one guessed that the brother only had one because of his lack of care for the sheep etc.) once again... More input is needed... eat but no worries.. I know how to fast.Truly! I doubt that the program has changed much in this aspect from then to now. Are there any Lawers in the house?
True, yet we would have to take this into account the level of righteousness as within the Quran as a standard to make this work.
hmm
In my opinion, this is where David fell within this test. He fell from humility. That is why I thank you for helping me remember mine.Yet, found it strange that you made exactly the same "error" as David. ("error" from my point of view aka program, religion etc. etc understanding of these verses etc). when you said
There is a difference from "many" as in "truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other" and "most" as in your comment. The word "most" in your comment is akin to the word "few" as in Davids. Thus my perception of wondering if you also understood the Verses you posted in this config.
Hope that helps. peace
Right. I actually agree with Davids view that "few work righteousness". However the problem of where he actually went wrong.
Its the judgement that he made that was "apparently" wrong, not his actual statement of "few". So his judgement was that his brother was trying to take his lot. If we base it on that, my only way of thinking where he went wrong on what we were given was due to the fact that only that one brother spoke. He gave all the information without David listening to the other. David rambled on due to his own personal opinion without hearing the other side of it. That doesnt mean that his ideals were wrong, but he didnt hear the other side to make the correct judgement. It's like saying, "Children have a natural bond to their mother". Although this may be true, someone uses this to determine whether a child is biologically from a certain women, without actually going through facts.
As far as David asking for forgiveness, I think thats just how careful he was in regards to making decisions. He either felt uneasy and wasn't sure or he knew that he did something wrong. Maybe he just wanted to clear up anything he "may" have done wrong? Again, this is all my interpretation.
Peace
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Salam,
If we base it on that, my only way of thinking where he went wrong on what we were given was due to the fact that only that one brother spoke.
So for you it's soley based on the fact that one remained silent (even though he was right there and present) , it's still David's fault. thanks for sharing that's interesting. it's nice too that you're being responsible enough to say that it is your interpretation..
Well, as I said earlier.. more input is needed but.. if someone doesn't use their their factualties then.. their loss...
anyway.. back to this
Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power.
I can see how you mean "emotions grant much power".. but what you say about "most" people... is false... where I live... most people drive cars.. folks who drive cars are wielding alot of power yet, somehow.. the majority ("most" tend to keep it well under control... so would you say that it is your opinion that "most people are not good with power?" how can you account for saying that?
Thanks
peace -
Peace
Salam,
So for you it's soley based on the fact that one remained silent (even though he was right there and present) , it's still David's fault. thanks for sharing that's interesting. it's nice too that you're being responsible enough to say that it is your interpretation..
Well, as I said earlier.. more input is needed but.. if someone doesn't use their their factualties then.. their loss...
anyway.. back to this
I can see how you mean "emotions grant much power".. but what you say about "most" people... is false... where I live... most people drive cars.. folks who drive cars are wielding alot of power yet, somehow.. the majority ("most" tend to keep it well under control... so would you say that it is your opinion that "most people are not good with power?" how can you account for saying that?
Thanks
peaceWhat exactly is Davids fault? Is it that he stated "they are very few" or the judgement he made regrading that specific party? I take the later as it makes more sense than a statement. Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error. Again, which for me makes more sense on his judgement between the two brothers.
As for the car statement, I can attest that most people that I have been in cars with has been wreckless more than once, its just that they never got into accidents. For example, say you speed. If you go driving at night, you speed over the speed limit, but you dont get into car crashes. That is one example. Also, road rage is another. Just because there are no accidents it doesnt mean that people can control. or better try to do their best. I have friends that drive expensive cars and that drive non expensive cars, but yet, a lot of them still go over what they are supposed to be doing. If the cop was there or even cares, based on the law, they should be getting tickets. Matter of fact, a lot of my friends have tickets that they still need to pay off. Not that there is some statistic out there, but from my personal experience in life, most people like to go BEYOND the limit. Yet, when something is done to them beyond the limit, they complain.
Peace