Why?
-
Peace brother
Salam,
Please interrupt more often!!
I agree, there is a set of rules that we follow based on a certain system (religion). This system, as we have been born into, is a tradition that has been proven and shown time and time again not to work.
There is the religion of work.. the religion of academia, religion of money... the religion of self preservation etc. Many of the aspects within these systems are known to us as "proper" behaviour. Also, one can easily put these "different" systems together and find the system that has "programmed" the individual falsely into believing in certain behaviour to be "superior" ove another.
If asked who is better a college student or a drug addict, the "programmed" response is the college student. This response is very often done without any further investigation into the either person etc.
Here is an example of this type of programming
Very good example once again and I totally agree. I wonder what exactly is the "real way" to things. Is emotions programmed as well? I tend to think so, however we probably have a basic level of it without the programming. Well it probably really isnt emotions, just instincts, like protection, mothers, etc.
Peace
-
Salam,
I wonder what exactly is the "real way" to things. Is emotions programmed as well? I tend to think so, however we probably have a basic level of it without the programming. Well it probably really isnt emotions, just instincts, like protection, mothers, etc.
I pray that we all wonder the same at some point. I believe emotions are part of our make up, yet the programming triggers how these emotions are played out. Since instincts have been neglected and set aside we react more emotionally than our instincts would justify. Emotions are a wonderful factulty. They teach and inspire much, both good and bad.
As an example, it's been asserted that one of the ways the human being has come to understand empathy is through pity. And pity is simply brought about by an instinct of self presavation. From there a long list of academic set of morality is set out and within the academic set we find many reasons or "agendas" that may once again be attribuited back to instinct in conjuction with the mind yet our own existance here and now with the issues that we are confronted on a daily basis shows that this set of instinct and mind is out of balance. What happens when there is an inbalance between the two, instinct and mind? Where does the soul fit into all of this? What do you think?
peace.
-
Peace
Salam,
I pray that we all wonder the same at some point. I believe emotions are part of our make up, yet the programming triggers how these emotions are played out. Since instincts have been neglected and set aside we react more emotionally than our instincts would justify. Emotions are a wonderful factulty. They teach and inspire much, both good and bad.
As an example, it's been asserted that one of the ways the human being has come to understand empathy is through pity. And pity is simply brought about by an instinct of self presavation. From there a long list of academic set of morality is set out and within the academic set we find many reasons or "agendas" that may once again be attribuited back to instinct in conjuction with the mind yet our own existance here and now with the issues that we are confronted on a daily basis shows that this set of instinct and mind is out of balance. What happens when there is an inbalance between the two, instinct and mind? Where does the soul fit into all of this? What do you think?
peace.
We must question and verify all the time, that is what God tells us.
Thats a great way of describing the evolution of the emotions, never heard of that one before. I think thats the problem with the human being. Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power. Such as with King David
He said, "He is being unfair to you by asking to combine your sheep with his. Most people who combine their properties treat each other unfairly, except those who believe and work righteousness, and these are so few."
I guess we need to know the definition of a soul. Based on the Quran, all life has been "breathed in" by God. On a physical level, I guess we are just organic machines?
Peace
-
Salam,
Such as with King David
He said, "He is being unfair to you by asking to combine your sheep with his. Most people who combine their properties treat each other unfairly, except those who believe and work righteousness, and these are so few."..and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance). 3824
Understood... and thank you for the helping me remember humility.
Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power.
Surah 3824. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
understand?
I guess we need to know the definition of a soul. Based on the Quran, all life has been "breathed in" by God. On a physical level, I guess we are just organic machines?
I agree... but I wonder how important are these machines in the entire scope as we've come to know?
peace -
Peace
Salam,
..and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance). 3824Understood... and thank you for the helping me remember humility.
Sureah 3424. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
understand?
Forgive me, but what exactly do you want me to understand? You quoted the same verse that I quoted so Im not quite sure?
I agree... but I wonder how important are these machines in the entire scope as we've come to know?
peace...Not saying that we are machines, but take God out of the equation and we could probably describe ourselves as it. Even with God in the equation, maybe we do function as a higher machine. Atoms, cells, electricity, chemicals, etc. all in our body and makes it function. Memory and experiences perhaps in the same way, yet we dont know yet.
Peace
-
Salam,
Forgive me, but what exactly do you want me to understand? You quoted the same verse that I quoted so Im not quite sure?
Thank you for asking perhaps it's for my understanding as well.
Amuslim, in your opinion, why did "David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance)."
Did he give bad advice to the disputants?
Surah 38. Sad, (the Letter) Sad ( S )
21. Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber;
22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said "Fear not we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
23. "This man is my brother He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one Yet he says, 'commit her to my care,' and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech."
24. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
25. So We forgave him this (lapse) he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.
26. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth so judge thou between men in truth (and justice) Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah. for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account. -
Peace
Did he give bad advice to the disputants?
Surah 38. Sad, (the Letter) Sad ( S )
21. Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber;
22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said "Fear not we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
23. "This man is my brother He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one Yet he says, 'commit her to my care,' and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech."
24. (David) said "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"...and David gathered that We had tried him he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).
25. So We forgave him this (lapse) he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.
26. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth so judge thou between men in truth (and justice) Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah. for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.Based on the way its worded that he was forgiven, it would seem so. However, what would you make of this message? Is it true or false?
"truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"
Exactly how did David fail this test if he did? Was it being too quick to judge the other man?
Peace
-
Salam,
Thanks again for asking!
Based on the way its worded that he was forgiven, it would seem so. However, what would you make of this message? Is it true or false?
Allah is Merciful indeed! If by this message you mean, the verses we're talking about it, my humble opinion would be since we do not know more about the actual facts of the story and only have the few words to rely on.. then I would have to agree with David's decision. More input would definitly be needed to make a better judgement but, given the simplicity of the facts, I would even think the one brother with more sheep would give a few to his brother and help him cultivate them (even if one guessed that the brother only had one because of his lack of care for the sheep etc.) once again... More input is needed... eat but no worries.. I know how to fast.
"truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other
Truly! I doubt that the program has changed much in this aspect from then to now. Are there any Lawers in the house?
Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness,
True, yet we would have to take this into account the level of righteousness as within the Quran as a standard to make this work.
and how few are they?"
hmm
In my opinion, this is where David fell within this test. He fell from humility. That is why I thank you for helping me remember mine.Yet, found it strange that you made exactly the same "error" as David. ("error" from my point of view aka program, religion etc. etc understanding of these verses etc). when you said
Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power.
There is a difference from "many" as in "truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other" and "most" as in your comment. The word "most" in your comment is akin to the word "few" as in Davids. Thus my perception of wondering if you also understood the Verses you posted in this config.
Hope that helps. peace
-
Peace
Salam,
Thanks again for asking!
Allah is Merciful indeed! If by this message you mean, the verses we're talking about it, my humble opinion would be since we do not know more about the actual facts of the story and only have the few words to rely on.. then I would have to agree with David's decision. More input would definitly be needed to make a better judgement but, given the simplicity of the facts, I would even think the one brother with more sheep would give a few to his brother and help him cultivate them (even if one guessed that the brother only had one because of his lack of care for the sheep etc.) once again... More input is needed... eat but no worries.. I know how to fast.Truly! I doubt that the program has changed much in this aspect from then to now. Are there any Lawers in the house?
True, yet we would have to take this into account the level of righteousness as within the Quran as a standard to make this work.
hmm
In my opinion, this is where David fell within this test. He fell from humility. That is why I thank you for helping me remember mine.Yet, found it strange that you made exactly the same "error" as David. ("error" from my point of view aka program, religion etc. etc understanding of these verses etc). when you said
There is a difference from "many" as in "truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other" and "most" as in your comment. The word "most" in your comment is akin to the word "few" as in Davids. Thus my perception of wondering if you also understood the Verses you posted in this config.
Hope that helps. peace
Right. I actually agree with Davids view that "few work righteousness". However the problem of where he actually went wrong.
Its the judgement that he made that was "apparently" wrong, not his actual statement of "few". So his judgement was that his brother was trying to take his lot. If we base it on that, my only way of thinking where he went wrong on what we were given was due to the fact that only that one brother spoke. He gave all the information without David listening to the other. David rambled on due to his own personal opinion without hearing the other side of it. That doesnt mean that his ideals were wrong, but he didnt hear the other side to make the correct judgement. It's like saying, "Children have a natural bond to their mother". Although this may be true, someone uses this to determine whether a child is biologically from a certain women, without actually going through facts.
As far as David asking for forgiveness, I think thats just how careful he was in regards to making decisions. He either felt uneasy and wasn't sure or he knew that he did something wrong. Maybe he just wanted to clear up anything he "may" have done wrong? Again, this is all my interpretation.
Peace
-
Salam,
If we base it on that, my only way of thinking where he went wrong on what we were given was due to the fact that only that one brother spoke.
So for you it's soley based on the fact that one remained silent (even though he was right there and present) , it's still David's fault. thanks for sharing that's interesting. it's nice too that you're being responsible enough to say that it is your interpretation..
Well, as I said earlier.. more input is needed but.. if someone doesn't use their their factualties then.. their loss...
anyway.. back to this
Emotions grant much power, and most people are not good with power.
I can see how you mean "emotions grant much power".. but what you say about "most" people... is false... where I live... most people drive cars.. folks who drive cars are wielding alot of power yet, somehow.. the majority ("most" tend to keep it well under control... so would you say that it is your opinion that "most people are not good with power?" how can you account for saying that?
Thanks
peace -
Peace
Salam,
So for you it's soley based on the fact that one remained silent (even though he was right there and present) , it's still David's fault. thanks for sharing that's interesting. it's nice too that you're being responsible enough to say that it is your interpretation..
Well, as I said earlier.. more input is needed but.. if someone doesn't use their their factualties then.. their loss...
anyway.. back to this
I can see how you mean "emotions grant much power".. but what you say about "most" people... is false... where I live... most people drive cars.. folks who drive cars are wielding alot of power yet, somehow.. the majority ("most" tend to keep it well under control... so would you say that it is your opinion that "most people are not good with power?" how can you account for saying that?
Thanks
peaceWhat exactly is Davids fault? Is it that he stated "they are very few" or the judgement he made regrading that specific party? I take the later as it makes more sense than a statement. Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error. Again, which for me makes more sense on his judgement between the two brothers.
As for the car statement, I can attest that most people that I have been in cars with has been wreckless more than once, its just that they never got into accidents. For example, say you speed. If you go driving at night, you speed over the speed limit, but you dont get into car crashes. That is one example. Also, road rage is another. Just because there are no accidents it doesnt mean that people can control. or better try to do their best. I have friends that drive expensive cars and that drive non expensive cars, but yet, a lot of them still go over what they are supposed to be doing. If the cop was there or even cares, based on the law, they should be getting tickets. Matter of fact, a lot of my friends have tickets that they still need to pay off. Not that there is some statistic out there, but from my personal experience in life, most people like to go BEYOND the limit. Yet, when something is done to them beyond the limit, they complain.
Peace
-
Salam,
What exactly is Davids fault? Is it that he stated "they are very few" or the judgement he made regrading that specific party? I take the later as it makes more sense than a statement. Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error. Again, which for me makes more sense on his judgement between the two brothers.
I take the former. No worries. I think it's fine that two people don't agree on such an issue, as long as it's done with responsibility. I believe it is even more beautiful as you say, "Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error." Exactly, nothing was actually addressed in specific.. In this instant, without outside sources, all we have to use to come to an understanding are the words that are transmitted within the story itself, possibly, very much like the same position that David was was in. Praise Allah! pr
As for the car statement, I can attest that most people that I have been in cars with has been wreckless more than once, its just that they never got into accidents. For example, say you speed. If you go driving at night, you speed over the speed limit, but you dont get into car crashes. That is one example. Also, road rage is another. Just because there are no accidents it doesnt mean that people can control. or better try to do their best. I have friends that drive expensive cars and that drive non expensive cars, but yet, a lot of them still go over what they are supposed to be doing. If the cop was there or even cares, based on the law, they should be getting tickets. Matter of fact, a lot of my friends have tickets that they still need to pay off. Not that there is some statistic out there, but from my personal experience in life, most people like to go BEYOND the limit. Yet, when something is done to them beyond the limit, they complain.
"Attest" is akin to witness. So you are saying that you are a witness to your own saying that "...most people are not good with power." So by you saying ... "most people are not good with power." isn't that just your own opinion? Or are you declaring you saying "...most people are not good with power." as truth?
Peace
-
Peace
Salam,
I take the former. No worries. I think it's fine that two people don't agree on such an issue, as long as it's done with responsibility. I believe it is even more beautiful as you say, "Also, it wasn't addressed that his statement was his error." Exactly, nothing was actually addressed in specific.. In this instant, without outside sources, all we have to use to come to an understanding are the words that are transmitted within the story itself, possibly, very much like the same position that David was was in. Praise Allah! pr"Attest" is akin to witness. So you are saying that you are a witness to your own saying that "...most people are not good with power." So by you saying ... "most people are not good with power." isn't that just your own opinion? Or are you declaring you saying "...most people are not good with power." as truth?
Peace
Agree to disagree is ok with me. I don't find the statement itself important compared to the whole.
To say that "most" would definitely be by my own opinion. If I were to make it a fact, then one would need statistical information, no? Also, by stating the opposite, that most people are good or responsible with power, would also need statistical information. The point though was that I see it in the Quran as a statement that confirms it. Without the Quran, I'd still hold that opinion, but I only brought it up for the fact that it was in it. If you don't, again like said previously, we can agree to disagree on the issue, theres nothing wrong with differ opinions. Enjoying the discussion
Peace
-
Salam,
Peace
Agree to disagree is ok with me. I don't find the statement itself important compared to the whole.
To say that "most" would definitely be by my own opinion. If I were to make it a fact, then one would need statistical information, no? Also, by stating the opposite, that most people are good or responsible with power, would also need statistical information. The point though was that I see it in the Quran as a statement that confirms it. Without the Quran, I'd still hold that opinion, but I only brought it up for the fact that it was in it. If you don't, again like said previously, we can agree to disagree on the issue, theres nothing wrong with differ opinions. Enjoying the discussion
Peace
I agree! Somehow even within the disagreement, I see many agreements between us. You mentioned that David based his decision on his own opinion yet he didn't hear the other side. We often base decisions on opinion. Once again, I think this brings us back to the point of the thread. These opinions are at times based, as it's already been discussed, on programming that the individual has. Without additional input, can we put blame on an individual for coming to a certain opinion?
Another way of looking at it is, can we blame a person who has never heard God's Message about not knowing about it? Without additional input, that person can hardly be blamed. Even for a person who's God's Message has arrived, such as David, can we really blame him for making a decision on limited input? But for a person who has knowledge of God's Message, humility is key.
I've noticed this in what I read here from others and with myself how commonly generalizing issues are easily done. "People this, them that, they are those etc." I pray that I can be more responsible and practice more humility in my own words and actions as well as I pray for others the same.
Yet, generalization is also a key into coming to certain understandings. There is the pro and cons of profiling. There are pro and cons of generalization... well, in general. But, there is a by-product of being off balance with these forms of opinion. A person may judge another simply because of the headscarf they were, others might be dismissed and outcasted in society because of they somehow don't fit into the socialized box (smoking, lack of exercise, junk food and the such). These aspects become more important when I see that at the time being, our world is very media based. We are constantly bombarded by images and sounds etc.. Would you agree that a byproduct of these types of attacks on the senses is causing an off balance of reliance on the senses rather than the Soul?
Therefore, certain things are coined "proper" that please these senses rather than things that don't. al-Ghazali, many years ago, came to an understanding that our senses do not always tell us the truth. http//www.ghazali.org/ . So when we are talking about subconcious, nafs etc. wouldn't it be more "proper" to be responsible and more complete in our understanding of these issues? Is it the responsibility of those who wish to claim to attain Spiritual Knowledge (oxymoron?!) to understand some of these basic concepts and act accordingly?
So taking in the input I have gotten on this thread, and then I read the following
Why is it that when a person decides to do something, like stop smoking, or beginning a diet or exercise, or any type of change in behavior, does it follow that the person continues to follow the same pattern of behavior most times?
It would seem because the person has not actually decided to that thing. It's actually pretty simple. The why behind it may lay within the subject of the subconcious, but these subjects aught to be explored in a more complete sense to come to better understanding.
Do we properly understand the subconcious(nafs) part of being as we should?
"We" is too general to assertain a truthful answer. I'm sure some do, and some don't. Yet, if I was to take the same words and change "we" into "I" as in as within the original question posed
Do I properly understand the=subconcious(nafs) part of being as we should?
I would have to say, from the input (or lack thereof), no, Bro Kyle appears to lack a more complete understanding of the subject.
Now back to David. Since, I only have a certain amount of content to come to an understanding, can I be blamed on my decision at this point?
Enjoying the discussion
Me too.
peace.
-
Peace be upon you Lobster,
would you say that what we imagine is what we experience?
Your faculty of imagination and your faculty of verbal thought are two tools with which you program your subconcious(nafs). If you sit back and watch your person, you will realize that we spend much of our time in our imagination. We play all things out in our heads ....how we would react if this happenned and that happenned...and the images and thoughts that you play over and over again shape your behavior.
It is our RESPONSES to lifes events that we are working on, and you will find that your responses come AUTOMATICALLY in most cases, and this AUTOMATIC system can and needs to be reprogrammed (purified).
-
Peace be upon you M Mehdi,
To me this sounds like the personal litany of Kyle. Yet, the way he words it is more than that. He says, "So our job is to... " Our? What would make Kyle come to such conclusions.. what programming has led him to these types of ideas that it's not only "his" job.. but all of the sudden... "ours"
Because truth is universal...it is my job to drink plenty of water so my body can work properly, it is also your job to drink plenty of water. Perhaps you take that as me telling you what to do, no, I am only pointing to that which is VERIFYABLE in the book of life, it is up to you to follow it or not, my job is only to spread that which is beneficial and verifyable (if you do the work).
It is asinine (lost in the mind) to have go through such a twisted road to come to the simple conclusion that yes... you, me, we are conciousness itself! and of course each of us are responsible for our own nafs but that does not make the subconcious and "you" APART.
The FACT that "you" can shape and mold the Nafs(subconcious/spirit) shows us that it is not the same thing we call "I". I dont care what words you want to use for these parts, just realize there is a duality at work. All things were created in pairs. Realize that conciousness is one part and subconcious is the other part and it is the job of the conscious to put the right behavior in the subconcious. The concious is the part that WILLS, the subconcious is the part that carries out the programs placed in it. Its like a farmer dropping seeds and the soil making it grow through sun and water.
In conclusion, the subconcious is as much a part of "you" as your physical body. The physical body is a TOOL used by the "I" to have wordly experience, bu the physical body and conciousness are not the same thing. If you lose your arms and legs to you stop being "you"? There is a part of you that has and always will remain the same, that same conciousness that was "you" when you were 1 month old, 5 years old, 20 years old, and today, even though your physical body has changed completely since then...so who are "you"? You are consciousness, and conciousness has vehicles that it uses, that SERVE it. Your thoughts , imagination, physical body, etc. All of these vehicles are part of the subconcious realm and can all be programmed. Thats why we can lift weights and train our muscles to grao, or learn how to play a song on the piano after REPTITION, and it is the same with our MIND which is a TOOL of the conciousness.I'll stop here so we can digest this part for a moment and talk it through.
-
Your faculty of imagination and your faculty of verbal thought are two tools with which you program your subconcious(nafs). If you sit back and watch your person, you will realize that we spend much of our time in our imagination. We play all things out in our heads ....how we would react if this happenned and that happenned...and the images and thoughts that you play over and over again shape your behavior.
It is our RESPONSES to lifes events that we are working on, and you will find that your responses come AUTOMATICALLY in most cases, and this AUTOMATIC system can and needs to be reprogrammed (purified).
bravo There will always remain that negative aspect of our reflexes. The reflectance to process thoughts comes from the nourishments it receives and the strengths of internal/external combustion (the aura). -
Salam,
Because truth is universal...it is my job to drink plenty of water so my body can work properly, it is also your job to drink plenty of water. Perhaps you take that as me telling you what to do, no, I am only pointing to that which is VERIFYABLE in the book of life, it is up to you to follow it or not, my job is only to spread that which is beneficial and verifyable (if you do the work).
Kyle, do you consider yourself a messenger of God?
I understand the programming that has led you to say such a thing though. There's no argument about such things about water being "good" for you but at the same time smoking doesn't have to be bad for you, as an example. And also many things which we deem in our society today to be good can actually have opposite effects etc. I pray you can be more full rounded while doing your "job."
The FACT that "you" can shape and mold the Nafs(subconcious/spirit) shows us that it is not the same thing we call "I". I dont care what words you want to use for these parts, just realize there is a duality at work. All things were created in pairs. Realize that conciousness is one part and subconcious is the other part and it is the job of the conscious to put the right behavior in the subconcious. The concious is the part that WILLS, the subconcious is the part that carries out the programs placed in it. Its like a farmer dropping seeds and the soil making it grow through sun and water.
In conclusion, the subconcious is as much a part of "you" as your physical body. The physical body is a TOOL used by the "I" to have wordly experience, bu the physical body and conciousness are not the same thing. If you lose your arms and legs to you stop being "you"? There is a part of you that has and always will remain the same, that same conciousness that was "you" when you were 1 month old, 5 years old, 20 years old, and today, even though your physical body has changed completely since then...so who are "you"? You are consciousness, and conciousness has vehicles that it uses, that SERVE it. Your thoughts , imagination, physical body, etc. All of these vehicles are part of the subconcious realm and can all be programmed. Thats why we can lift weights and train our muscles to grao, or learn how to play a song on the piano after REPTITION, and it is the same with our MIND which is a TOOL of the conciousness.
I'll stop here so we can digest this part for a moment and talk it through.Thanks for your response. I did take your suggestion and let it "digest" for moment before replying. And I find that you did not in provide a good case as to how the two are seperate.
The "fact" (as you say) that "you" can shape and mold the nafs would point more towards that they are a part of "you." You also mention something about loosing arms and legs etc. This is not a good analogy that you use. Lets instead use an analogy (since you opened the door) that actually concerns the concious, the sub-concious, and behavoir since this is part of what I you appear to be talking about.
As you seem to assert in one portion of your thought that the sub-concious creates certain behaviour patterns that are executed through the conscious mind. But lets say that you fall and become unconcious what good or bad does your sub-concious do in the sense of your behaviour patterns? How would you continue to smoke, eat junk food etc. etc.. ?
You do not make a good case as to how the concious mind and sub-concious are apart. If anything all that you said above shows more clearly how they are part of one. At the same time, it appears that you are taking a very long and unnecessary road to coming to very simple conclusions. Such as
There is a part of you that has and always will remain the same, that same conciousness that was "you" when you were 1 month old, 5 years old, 20 years old, and today, even though your physical body has changed completely since then...so who are "you"? You are consciousness, and conciousness has vehicles that it uses, that SERVE it. Your thoughts , imagination, physical body, etc. All of these vehicles are part of the subconcious realm and can all be programmed. Thats why we can lift weights and train our muscles to grao, or learn how to play a song on the piano after REPTITION, and it is the same with our MIND which is a TOOL of the conciousness.
Ok sure.. but so what's your point? I agree that I, you, we.. are conciousness (or at least a part thereof). How does this show the sub-concious to be seperate?
Frankly, it appears that you are taking certain thoughts and studies and repeating them without actually being able to articulate your own resolve. By saying things such as
Because truth is universal...
Realize that conciousness is one part and subconcious is the other part and it is the job of the conscious to put the right behavior in the subconcious.You seem to just want the reader to agree with you.. well.. just "because" you say so. This behaviour of yours is the same as a while ago when I asked you to give more detail about your experience with the drumming and you were not able to do so. Alas, the experience is key.. and may lead to more if we can learn to program that "behaviour" pattern as you yourself are asserting.
Sensing a thing is a good start though, as you mentioned
The physical body is a TOOL used by the "I" to have wordly experience, bu the physical body and conciousness are not the same thing.
Yet, the actions of our physical bodies leave an imprint on the Soul. The behaviours that the bodies causes does effect the Soul. The two are working in conjuction together and at this point are infused and not "yet" apart, Kyle. But I believe you're onto a good thing here. We can start to see the seperation of the two, but must understand that at this point, here and now, they work together and are both part of the "I".
Yes, and even so when we can practice different techniques to seperate the two for a time being, we always come back to the union of the two in this dunya.
Kyle, practicality can also be a key.
Peace be on you, bro.
-muhammad
ps. Good to see you still around...
-
Peace be upon you,
Kyle, do you consider yourself a messenger of God?
Only if what I stated can be proven. But dont take that to mean some superhero to be worshipped as partner to the God. Only a normal person like you. Do you NOT consider yourself a messenger when you deliver truth? You are. Its time we took responsibility for what we say and not shift this responsibility to some Jewish superheroes of the unverifyable past.
I understand the programming that has led you to say such a thing though. There's no argument about such things about water being "good" for you
Thats correct because life is built on LAWS.
but at the same time smoking doesn't have to be bad for you, as an example.
WHat do you mean by "doesnt have to be"? Smoke is not meant for the lungs.
And also many things which we deem in our society today to be good can actually have opposite effects etc. I pray you can be more full rounded while doing your "job."
Truth is built on relationships, how things relate to each other, that is how LAW is used. Things must be weighed/measured. We do not make blanket statements but look at each situation and weigh it. We are responsible for our faculties.
Thanks for your response. I did take your suggestion and let it "digest" for moment before replying. And I find that you did not in provide a good case as to how the two are seperate.
The "fact" (as you say) that "you" can shape and mold the nafs would point more towards that they are a part of "you." You also mention something about loosing arms and legs etc. This is not a good analogy that you use.
Its an excellent analogy because the physical body is a vehicle just like your thoughts and images. Look at your wording above, it is screaming to you that they are seperate, actually an indivisible duality. The point I want you to focus on is what part to you identify with as the "I"?
Lets instead use an analogy (since you opened the door) that actually concerns the concious, the sub-concious, and behavoir since this is part of what I you appear to be talking about.
As you seem to assert in one portion of your thought that the sub-concious creates certain behaviour patterns that are executed through the conscious mind.
Incorrect. There is no "concious mind", YOU are conciousness Itself, and the Spirit(subconcious) is your vehicle that you are given so that you can purify it and build the house of God so God can come into the world through your vehicle. Conciousness WILLS, but the subcocious/spirit CARRIES OUT what is willed. But the spirit is not always receptive, so although we may "plant seeds in the garden, the soil is not always fertile, it is not always the right season".
But lets say that you fall and become unconcious what good or bad does your sub-concious do in the sense of your behaviour patterns? How would you continue to smoke, eat junk food etc. etc.. ?
What do you do when you dream? Sleep is the cousin of death. "is that air your breathing Neo"?
You do not make a good case as to how the concious mind and sub-concious are apart. If anything all that you said above shows more clearly how they are part of one. At the same time, it appears that you are taking a very long and unnecessary road to coming to very simple conclusions.
(2137) The human/mankind was created from hurry/haste/speed, I will show you My signs/evidences , so do not hurry/hasten.
Take your time, I assure you it is verifyable. Is THAT which percieves the same as that which is percieved?
Ok sure.. but so what's your point? I agree that I, you, we.. are conciousness (or at least a part thereof). How does this show the sub-concious to be seperate?
If you ARE consiousness, how can you be that which is percieved by the conciousness? Are you the chair that you are sitting on? The subconcious is your vehicle, just like your body, but it is not the "I" within, it is not your identity. However the probem mankind faces is that they are conditioned from birth to identify with the emotions and physical body, thereby forgeting who they really are. Know Thyself.
Frankly, it appears that you are taking certain thoughts and studies and repeating them without actually being able to articulate your own resolve.
If you have taken the time to reflect and look at these things in your own experience and you disagree, then thats fine, peace to you just the same.
You seem to just want the reader to agree with you.. well.. just "because" you say so.
Never that, I just want the reader to see my passion and take the TIME to check this out and not reach into thier preconcieved ideas bag (subconcious) and grab thier programmed responses without really considering it.
This behaviour of yours is the same as a while ago when I asked you to give more detail about your experience with the drumming and you were not able to do so. Alas, the experience is key.. and may lead to more if we can learn to program that "behaviour" pattern as you yourself are asserting.
Probaly didnt have much experience at the time to provide that for you, whats wrong with that? SHould I make something up for you? This topic however is not drumming.
Yet, the actions of our physical bodies leave an imprint on the Soul. The behaviours that the bodies causes does effect the Soul. The two are working in conjuction together and at this point are infused and not "yet" apart, Kyle.
It is becoming more and more clear that you have not pondered what I am saying because you keep saying things I never said and are incorrect to what I am speaking on. The physical body IS part of the Spirit(subconcious realm), or do you beat your own heart and change that almond into flesh and blood, etc. Just like all of the Nafs, it can be programmed, do you agree that you can program your body?
But I believe you're onto a good thing here. We can start to see the seperation of the two
Yes, if we are seeing the seperation of the TWO, then that is a good thing.
but must understand that at this point, here and now, they work together and are both part of the "I".
God created all things in pairs, yes, it is an indivisible duality, but the focus here is WHICH PART OF THE TWO do you identify with. hey are both part of "being", but one cannot serve two masters, which of the two holds the throne? Which one is yang and which is yin?
Yes, and even so when we can practice different techniques to seperate the two for a time being, we always come back to the union of the two in this dunya.
Yes, we always come back to the ONE, but that is by making the TWO to work properly together. Are the slave and the master the same?
Kyle, practicality can also be a key.
Peace be on you, bro.
-muhammad
ps. Good to see you still around...
Good to "hajj" with you again and peace be upon you as well. ;D
-
Peace brother Kyle,
It is good to see you on the forum.
Good to "hajj" with you again and peace be upon you as well. ;D
The term "hajj" doesn't mean debate. my understanding of this term has improved. I can now see that "hajj" actually means "feast". You can empirically verify this. Try to invite all people to a debate or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a debate". I doubt many people will come. On the other hand, invite people to a feast or put a sign outside your house saying "come in for a free feast". You will get many people. This is reality and it matches with the signs of the great reading. Naturally, animal sacrifice is one of the central components of the feast/"hajj".
Peace,
Ayman