Hi an ex-Muslim
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Peace cosmicdancer and all
May I ask all of you a question
If a person is committed to implementing and upholdding following values.
Treating people with justice and equality
Respectting people and there property
Being tolerant and compassionate towards others
Taking responsibility for ones own actions
Working in ethical employment/self employment
Upholding ones commitments
Dealing with others in a peaceful manner
Continuously working to self improve and also if possible helping others to develop
Being generous and charitable towards others
Committed to the principle of Earth care ,People Care , and fare share for all
Being prepared to deffend the above even if it means that you may lose your life
Would you consider them Peaceful (MUSLIM) .
ABSOLUTELY.Although I do believe in an ultimate Supreme Force (a controlling factor), my views are that peace has nothing to do with a "God" in person. Belief in "God" is a concept, an object of thought, a superimposition to living a life essentially out of fear emanating from ancient polytheistic times from idolworship and continuing, nothing else. Peace is a universal rule and every government/societies have general earthly laws and conditions constituted, dictated by circumstance and nature. It is a different matter when people don't uphold righteousness and they get punished Here and Now, either by suffereings or death. What happens after death, if there's such a thing called 'soul', is unknown. Our bodies get dissipated/depleted, recycled and nourished (read Death to Dust). Scientists are busy experimenting upon creating a life form out of matter.
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Peace Genteel and Samia
I my self also believe in a Supreme Force by choice but that does not mean that The supreme force will put me in to hell or heaven as I believe hell and heaven are basically the following concepts heaven = being at peace.Hell being in turmoil depressive nature and we our self are capable of putting our self's in any of any of these concepts by the way we live our daily lives we our selves will be the judge and jury.
samia
If things are recognised from there opposites what is the opposite of God and if there is a opposite does that mean there are 2 Gods.
Peace Salim
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Peace Genteel and Samia
I my self also believe in a Supreme Force by choice but that does not mean that The supreme force will put me in to hell or heaven as I believe hell and heaven are basically the following concepts heaven = being at peace.Hell being in turmoil depressive nature and we our self are capable of putting our self's in any of any of these concepts by the way we live our daily lives we our selves will be the judge and jury.
samia
If things are recognised from there opposites what is the opposite of God and if there is a opposite does that mean there are 2 Gods.
Peace Salim
The opposite of God is no God.
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Sorry to intrude, but I completely agree that we know these things instinctively. However, I don't see how that goes against something being from God. In fact, it seems like evidence for that.
Peace
Possibly.
I do not deny there is a God.
My position is an Agnsotic one. I believe such things are unknowable for certain in this world.
It is organised religion I reject.
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...Would you consider them Peaceful (MUSLIM)
I would consider them peaceful.
I'm not sure what you mean by Muslim though?
If you mean do they follow Islam and the teachings of the Qur'an - obviously it depends if they do or not.
If you mean the Arabic word 'Muslim' is a synonym of 'peaceful' - then no - it is not a direct synonym of the word 'peaceful'
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Cosmicdancer,
Would you please share
- Why you initially believed that Quran in the word of God.
- Why eventually you changed your position to "Quran is authored by man".
I am not a muslim; but a monotheist. I believe in a God. I dont have any position on Quran however I am analyzing this book so that I could reach a conclusion.
I am interested in listening to your views.
I was born a Muslim and the Qur'an was always assumed to be the word of God - it was a natural thought since I was very young. I started actively practising when I was 20 after reading the Qur'an while on holiday in my father's country. It was an emotional and very spiritual time for me. I was searching for meaning to life and the words of the Qur'an seemed tp speak to me and moved me. I had no doubt it was the word of God speaking to my soul.
For the next 20 years or so I never doubted for one minute the Qur'an was the word of God.
Then September 11th and other events shook me to the core. I began to ask questions like "How could people be so convinced and so certain they are following the truth - yet be so dreadfully wrong and blind?" I wondered if I could be like that. Not in the sense of holding extreme views - which I never did - but in the sense of being totally convinced of something - yet in fact completely wrong?
The more I thought about this the more I started to ask "Why I believe in what I do". I started looking at the Qur'an with a much more detached and dispassionate logic. I found things that had troubled me in the past now stood out painfully. Verses such as being able to hit one's wife or verses about torturing unbelievers over and over in Hell by burning their skins of then replacing them so they can keep suffering. It seemed sadistic and without logic.
My perception gradually changed. Until I no longer saw these words as the words of God. But the words of a man from a harsh 7th century desert environment - where such behaviour and imagery was the order of the day.
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Peace Genteel and Samia
I my self also believe in a Supreme Force by choice but that does not mean that The supreme force will put me in to hell or heaven as I believe hell and heaven are basically the following concepts heaven = being at peace.Hell being in turmoil depressive nature and we our self are capable of putting our self's in any of any of these concepts by the way we live our daily lives we our selves will be the judge and jury.
Peace Salim
What about people putting others in hell and don't care after that, or areeven enjoying it?
If things are recognised from there opposites what is the opposite of God
Do we know the opposite of God? That's why we don't "recognize" Him. We just believe..a question of faith, not recognition.
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Peace cosmicdancer and welcome
My evolution is similar to yours in many ways. Not born muslim, but became one , the usual thing for about 20 years - same as you - i guess we're in the same age range.
I also look at quran differently nowadays, but still want to tell you that most things you advance right here like wife beating and the torture of unbelievers - can be understood very differently.
Many - often violent - discussions have been going on , specially about the wife beating subject (use search function)
and the torture in layers is imo more about ego burning inside of us...peace
lkps please, who's your avatar ?
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Peace cosmicdancer and welcome
My evolution is similar to yours in many ways. Not born muslim, but became one , the usual thing for about 20 years - same as you - i guess we're in the same age range.
I also look at quran differently nowadays, but still want to tell you that most things you advance right here like wife beating and the torture of unbelievers - can be understood very differently.
Many - often violent - discussions have been going on , specially about the wife beating subject (use search function)
and the torture in layers is imo more about ego burning inside of us...peace
lkps please, who's your avatar ?
Peace Elke link and thank you for the welcome. I agree that there are many interpretations of these things and for a long time I strongly advanced the allegorical and symbolic meanings you mention.
But ultimately they did not satisfy me. For a book that is so graphic and detailed in it's discriptions - I found it hard to interpret them in a more metaphorical way.
But good luck to those who can.
)
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I was born a Muslim and the Qur'an was always assumed to be the word of God - it was a natural thought since I was very young. I started actively practising when I was 20 after reading the Qur'an while on holiday in my father's country. It was an emotional and very spiritual time for me. I was searching for meaning to life and the words of the Qur'an seemed tp speak to me and moved me. I had no doubt it was the word of God speaking to my soul.
For the next 20 years or so I never doubted for one minute the Qur'an was the word of God.
Then September 11th and other events shook me to the core. I began to ask questions like "How could people be so convinced and so certain they are following the truth - yet be so dreadfully wrong and blind?" I wondered if I could be like that. Not in the sense of holding extreme views - which I never did - but in the sense of being totally convinced of something - yet in fact completely wrong?
The more I thought about this the more I started to ask "Why I believe in what I do". I started looking at the Qur'an with a much more detached and dispassionate logic. I found things that had troubled me in the past now stood out painfully. Verses such as being able to hit one's wife or verses about torturing unbelievers over and over in Hell by burning their skins of then replacing them so they can keep suffering. It seemed sadistic and without logic.
My perception gradually changed. Until I no longer saw these words as the words of God. But the words of a man from a harsh 7th century desert environment - where such behaviour and imagery was the order of the day.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Few things
- You are an honest and rational person. You are better than millions who are not even sure what they are following. They never bothered to reason their beliefs. They are like herd of cattle as Quran labelled them.
- You tried and you reached this conclusion. I dont see how a Quranist is any better than you who tried and reached a different conclusion. As long as both tried sincerely.
- I agree with you on hiding the identity. Brain washed people are akin to animals. They can do anything. You should protect yourself using your mind not emotions. I think you are doing the right thing.
- My last comment is that I see major major major issues with the book myself. Keeping these issues in mind, even if I accept that this is a man written book I would not be able to explain few amazing miracles in there which certainly cannot be attributed to a man. The situation boils down to one of the two choices 1) The book has major issues and hence written by a man. This man somehow was able to write things in the book that were not known to humans at that time 2) The book has miracles and hence written by God. Few things in the book does not look appropriate to me perhaps due to my lack of knowledge and due to my certain way of looking at the world. You have chosen option 1. I am still debating. It is a very very difficult choice.
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Thank you for sharing your story.
Few things
- You are an honest and rational person. You are better than millions who are not even sure what they are following. They never bothered to reason their beliefs. They are like herd of cattle as Quran labelled them.
- You tried and you reached this conclusion. I dont see how a Quranist is any better than you who tried and reached a different conclusion. As long as both tried sincerely.
- I agree with you on hiding the identity. Brain washed people are akin to animals. They can do anything. You should protect yourself using your mind not emotions. I think you are doing the right thing.
- My last comment is that I see major major major issues with the book myself. Keeping these issues in mind, even if I accept that this is a man written book I would not be able to explain few amazing miracles in there which certainly cannot be attributed to a man. The situation boils down to one of the two choices 1) The book has major issues and hence written by a man. This man somehow was able to write things in the book that were not known to humans at that time 2) The book has miracles and hence written by God. Few things in the book does not look appropriate to me perhaps due to my lack of knowledge and due to my certain way of looking at the world. You have chosen option 1. I am still debating. It is a very very difficult choice.
I see you too are struggling with these dilemmas.
Whatever your concusions are it doesn't matter - so long as you have honestly made the effort to understand and find answers to the best of your ability.
If there is a God - then that is all he can ask of us.
I tell my children if they choose to stick to Islam, they will be safe - I only ask they do not close their mind or shut down their heart and mind - no matter what others may say.
We are all on a journey - I wish you all the best in yours.
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Peace CD,
If you mean the Arabic word 'Muslim' is a synonym of 'peaceful' - then no - it is not a direct synonym of the word 'peaceful'
The common noun "muslim" (the universal concept, not the cultural proper name Muslim) is indeed a direct synonym of "peacemaker".
You said that you studied Arabic so you should know that such form is very common in the Arabic language.
For example
good, making good, good maker
Have the same forms and interrelation as
peace, peace making, peacemaker
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace CD,
The common noun "muslim" (the universal concept, not the cultural proper name Muslim) is indeed a direct synonym of "peacemaker".
You said that you studied Arabic so you should know that such form is very common in the Arabic language.
For example
good, making good, good maker
Have the same forms and interrelation as
peace, peace making, peacemaker
Peace,
Ayman
I'd be interested to hear your view on my thread about wife hitting Ayman.
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Peace,
If I say to an arabic speaker "I(ee)drib", he would understand "hit or strike".
But if I say "Adrib" he would understand "go on strike".
Even in today's arabic, the meaning is preserved.
It is one's mindset or programming that pushs to think one way or the other, but from the context and the logical succession of the steps cited in that verse, plus knowing that one is better to be inclined to the peace, "go on strike" makes much more sense than "hit".
It is a matter of choice, and surely the consequences of each action are as distinct as hell and paradise.
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Peace CD,
There is no such thing as wife hitting in the great reading. The word "daraba" is never used to mean "hit" in the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
If the Qur'an did say one can hit one's wife.
Would that make you reject the Qur'an?
Or would it make no difference to you Ayman?
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Possibly.
I do not deny there is a God.
My position is an Agnsotic one. I believe such things are unknowable for certain in this world.
It is organised religion I reject.
God's existence is obvious.
Check out
www.harunyahya.com