Hi an ex-Muslim

Elke

Peace cosmicdancer and welcome

My evolution is similar to yours in many ways. Not born muslim, but became one , the usual thing for about 20 years - same as you - i guess we're in the same age range.

I also look at quran differently nowadays, but still want to tell you that most things you advance right here like wife beating and the torture of unbelievers - can be understood very differently.
Many - often violent - discussions have been going on , specially about the wife beating subject (use search function)
and the torture in layers is imo more about ego burning inside of us...

peace
lk

ps please, who's your avatar ?

cosmicdancer

Peace cosmicdancer and welcome

My evolution is similar to yours in many ways. Not born muslim, but became one , the usual thing for about 20 years - same as you - i guess we're in the same age range.

I also look at quran differently nowadays, but still want to tell you that most things you advance right here like wife beating and the torture of unbelievers - can be understood very differently.
Many - often violent - discussions have been going on , specially about the wife beating subject (use search function)
and the torture in layers is imo more about ego burning inside of us...

peace
lk

ps please, who's your avatar ?

Peace Elke link and thank you for the welcome. I agree that there are many interpretations of these things and for a long time I strongly advanced the allegorical and symbolic meanings you mention.

But ultimately they did not satisfy me. For a book that is so graphic and detailed in it's discriptions - I found it hard to interpret them in a more metaphorical way.

But good luck to those who can.

)

Navid

Possibly.

I do not deny there is a God.

My position is an Agnsotic one. I believe such things are unknowable for certain in this world.

It is organised religion I reject.

Alright, yeah I also dislike organized religion.

Peace

explorer

I was born a Muslim and the Qur'an was always assumed to be the word of God - it was a natural thought since I was very young. I started actively practising when I was 20 after reading the Qur'an while on holiday in my father's country. It was an emotional and very spiritual time for me. I was searching for meaning to life and the words of the Qur'an seemed tp speak to me and moved me. I had no doubt it was the word of God speaking to my soul.

For the next 20 years or so I never doubted for one minute the Qur'an was the word of God.

Then September 11th and other events shook me to the core. I began to ask questions like "How could people be so convinced and so certain they are following the truth - yet be so dreadfully wrong and blind?" I wondered if I could be like that. Not in the sense of holding extreme views - which I never did - but in the sense of being totally convinced of something - yet in fact completely wrong?

The more I thought about this the more I started to ask "Why I believe in what I do". I started looking at the Qur'an with a much more detached and dispassionate logic. I found things that had troubled me in the past now stood out painfully. Verses such as being able to hit one's wife or verses about torturing unbelievers over and over in Hell by burning their skins of then replacing them so they can keep suffering. It seemed sadistic and without logic.

My perception gradually changed. Until I no longer saw these words as the words of God. But the words of a man from a harsh 7th century desert environment - where such behaviour and imagery was the order of the day.

Thank you for sharing your story.

Few things

You are an honest and rational person. You are better than millions who are not even sure what they are following. They never bothered to reason their beliefs. They are like herd of cattle as Quran labelled them.
You tried and you reached this conclusion. I dont see how a Quranist is any better than you who tried and reached a different conclusion. As long as both tried sincerely.
I agree with you on hiding the identity. Brain washed people are akin to animals. They can do anything. You should protect yourself using your mind not emotions. I think you are doing the right thing.
My last comment is that I see major major major issues with the book myself. Keeping these issues in mind, even if I accept that this is a man written book I would not be able to explain few amazing miracles in there which certainly cannot be attributed to a man. The situation boils down to one of the two choices 1) The book has major issues and hence written by a man. This man somehow was able to write things in the book that were not known to humans at that time 2) The book has miracles and hence written by God. Few things in the book does not look appropriate to me perhaps due to my lack of knowledge and due to my certain way of looking at the world. You have chosen option 1. I am still debating. It is a very very difficult choice.

cosmicdancer

Thank you for sharing your story.

Few things

You are an honest and rational person. You are better than millions who are not even sure what they are following. They never bothered to reason their beliefs. They are like herd of cattle as Quran labelled them.
You tried and you reached this conclusion. I dont see how a Quranist is any better than you who tried and reached a different conclusion. As long as both tried sincerely.
I agree with you on hiding the identity. Brain washed people are akin to animals. They can do anything. You should protect yourself using your mind not emotions. I think you are doing the right thing.
My last comment is that I see major major major issues with the book myself. Keeping these issues in mind, even if I accept that this is a man written book I would not be able to explain few amazing miracles in there which certainly cannot be attributed to a man. The situation boils down to one of the two choices 1) The book has major issues and hence written by a man. This man somehow was able to write things in the book that were not known to humans at that time 2) The book has miracles and hence written by God. Few things in the book does not look appropriate to me perhaps due to my lack of knowledge and due to my certain way of looking at the world. You have chosen option 1. I am still debating. It is a very very difficult choice.

I see you too are struggling with these dilemmas.

Whatever your concusions are it doesn't matter - so long as you have honestly made the effort to understand and find answers to the best of your ability.

If there is a God - then that is all he can ask of us.

I tell my children if they choose to stick to Islam, they will be safe - I only ask they do not close their mind or shut down their heart and mind - no matter what others may say.

We are all on a journey - I wish you all the best in yours.

Jack

Alright, yeah I also dislike organized religion.

Me 3

ayman

Peace CD,

If you mean the Arabic word 'Muslim' is a synonym of 'peaceful' - then no - it is not a direct synonym of the word 'peaceful'

The common noun "muslim" (the universal concept, not the cultural proper name Muslim) is indeed a direct synonym of "peacemaker".

You said that you studied Arabic so you should know that such form is very common in the Arabic language.

For example

good, making good, good maker

Have the same forms and interrelation as

peace, peace making, peacemaker

Peace,

Ayman

cosmicdancer

Peace CD,

The common noun "muslim" (the universal concept, not the cultural proper name Muslim) is indeed a direct synonym of "peacemaker".

You said that you studied Arabic so you should know that such form is very common in the Arabic language.

For example

good, making good, good maker

Have the same forms and interrelation as

peace, peace making, peacemaker

Peace,

Ayman

I'd be interested to hear your view on my thread about wife hitting Ayman.

ayman

Peace CD,

I'd be interested to hear your view on my thread about wife hitting Ayman.

There is no such thing as wife hitting in the great reading. The word "daraba" is never used to mean "hit" in the great reading.

Peace,

Ayman

Someone

Peace,

If I say to an arabic speaker "I(ee)drib", he would understand "hit or strike".

But if I say "Adrib" he would understand "go on strike".

Even in today's arabic, the meaning is preserved.

It is one's mindset or programming that pushs to think one way or the other, but from the context and the logical succession of the steps cited in that verse, plus knowing that one is better to be inclined to the peace, "go on strike" makes much more sense than "hit".

It is a matter of choice, and surely the consequences of each action are as distinct as hell and paradise.

cosmicdancer

Peace CD,

There is no such thing as wife hitting in the great reading. The word "daraba" is never used to mean "hit" in the great reading.

Peace,

Ayman

If the Qur'an did say one can hit one's wife.

Would that make you reject the Qur'an?

Or would it make no difference to you Ayman?

sahaba

Possibly.

I do not deny there is a God.

My position is an Agnsotic one. I believe such things are unknowable for certain in this world.

It is organised religion I reject.

God's existence is obvious.

Check out
www.harunyahya.com

cosmicdancer

God's existence is obvious.

Check out
www.harunyahya.com

Seen it.

Thanks.

Leoxyz

deleted

ayman

Peace CD,

If the Qur'an did say one can hit one's wife.
Would that make you reject the Qur'an?
Or would it make no difference to you Ayman?

If the great reading predicted E=MC^2, would that make you accept it?

We can all make up all sorts of hypothetical questions but at one point, we have to face reality.

Firstly, I do reject the meaningless label Quran. The word "quran" as used in this book is clearly a common noun (a concept) and not a label. It is of the form "fu3lan". So similar to forms like "sultan" (intense/great authority), it literally means "intense/great reading".

So to make your question more meaningful you should ask "Would that make you reject the intense reading?" But of course it wouldn't. Many people don't agree with some of what is said (or they think is said) in the great reading but still think that it indeed makes a very good, indeed intense reading. In fact, even the worst translations do provide interesting reading.

Also, one can accept many man-made books. For example, I have no problem accepting many of the academic books that I studied. So rejecting or accepting a certain book has no bearing on whether it is from the god or not.

Your question should really be "Why do you think that the intense reading is from the god?"

To know the answer, we have to look within us and at the world around us. What is truth and what is falsehood?

Truth is reality. There is no such thing as "falsehood" in the universe. For example, the falsehood of the "flat earth" was created by our own understanding of the universe and how we imagined it to be. The universe itself doesn't care and it has always remained and will continue to remain true. Falsehood only exists due to our imagination and lives in our imagination. So people can make idols out of a black stone or a stone cube or some "holy" water and revere them and give them the power to forgive sins or cure all ills, etc. but this doesn't change the reality of those things and all this is just in people's imagination.

People have also turned the great reading into an idol that they called Quran. They hang it on their walls to ward off evil and mindlessly repeat certain passages to cure the sick. So you ask me if "wife hitting would make me reject the Quran" but I already reject the idol that people named Quran. As for the intense reading, your very question and the fact that after all those years and all those corruptions I can still tell you confidently that the word "darab" doesn't mean "hit" speaks about the truth in that book. The very existence of Hadiths and pagan rituals in so-called Islam speaks about the incorruptability of that book. They had to readjust and invent Hadiths and rename things to match the great reading because they couldn't change it. Our imagination couldn't touch it. Indeed, all the "jinn"/imagination/fantasy and humans cannot bring the likes of this book.

The book addresses our "jinn"/imagination/fantasy through the allegorical signs and addresses our selves through the judging signs. It mirrors the reality that we see in us and around us. I am sorry to be the first to bring this to your attention but the reality is that the universe is a very violent place. Stars that burn in the millions of degrees, supernova explosions, black holes sucking entire galaxies, etc. Everyone who spent an extended period outside with no protection from the elements gets a glimpse of what I am talking about. So think about what would happen to you outside the protection of this fragile little place called earth. So this is reality. The universe is a very violent place. We are only protected from this through the creator's mercy. If you are outside his mercy, it would be bad indeed. The allegorical passages in the great reading that talk about hell convey this picture. You may think that hell is cruel or that it is cruel that a black hole sucks an entire galaxy into oblivion but this is reality. In the big scheme of things reality is not cruel. It is the truth. In the big scheme of things everything that the god creates ultimately is good.

How do I know that the great reading is from the god? Everything I know about myself, my purpose and life itself and what I am telling you is from the wisdom in that book which mirrors what I actually see in me and around me. This is how I know the great reading is the truth and all truth (whether in the great reading or not) is from the god.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

The book addresses our "jinn"/imagination/fantasy through the allegorical signs and addresses our selves through the judging signs. It mirrors the reality that we see in us and around us. I am sorry to be the first to bring this to your attention but the reality is that the universe is a very violent place. Stars that burn in the millions of degrees, supernova explosions, black holes sucking entire galaxies, etc. Everyone who spent an extended period outside with no protection from the elements gets a glimpse of what I am talking about. So think about what would happen to you outside the protection of this fragile little place called earth. So this is reality. The universe is a very violent place. We are only protected from this through the creator's mercy. If you are outside his mercy, it would be bad indeed. The allegorical passages in the great reading that talk about hell convey this picture. You may think that hell is cruel or that it is cruel that a black hole sucks an entire galaxy into oblivion but this is reality. In the big scheme of things reality is not cruel. It is the truth. In the big scheme of things everything that the god creates ultimately is good.

Very good exposition. I always wondered why the concept of hell is inconcievable to others when a hell lies just a few thousand miles (relatively, of course) from us.

Jack