To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim
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Salaam all,
It is not the sent down that is the reason for the Qur'an being not created. Also iron is created because it is in the earth and God said that He created the earth and what is in it. Also, the iron is standing alone. The Qur'an is never standing alone. The words of God are always with God, in the listener or carried on created means of communications. The words themselves are not standing alone and therefore the question of being created does not apply.
No, you do not worship the Qur'an because you worship the standing alone entity and that is God. The words of God are attributes because they are not standing alone.
Zulf, perhaps you can question your logic a little.
Q1. Ok. For simplicity, let's assume we have a collection of hadeeth that are agreed upon that come from the prophet and that are sensible. Are they then law or not? If sunnis don't believe hadeeths are divine law, then what do they believe they are? If quran is divine law, and we should follow it, what level does hadeeth come at, according to sunnis, and how much and how closely should we follow hadeeth?
Q2. So everyone agrees that we should obey the messenger, but there are different interpretations to this. I guess the sunnis interpretation is that we should follow, beside the quran, the things the prophet has (according to sunnis) recommended and ordered through Hadeeth and Sunnah. So it is clear we should obey, but it is not clear what to obey. How important is it to follow hadeeth and sunnah in comparison with the quran? I guess this is the same as the previous question...
If all and you as well concluded that the prophet ordered something, then you are bound to obey it. The Qur'an tells you to obey the messenger. God knew that the messenger will order things outside the Qur'an. He would not have said "obey the messenger" if He did not want us to obey those orders. God could have easily said otherwise, unless you guys want to make God order what he did not know about, then it will be much worse of a situation. There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means. All Muslims but you guys understand it the same way. They disagree on if or what he said, but not on the meaning of the order from God nor the fact that it is mandatory.
Take care all and have a great day.
Hussein
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Can you please explain the significance of the Quran being created or not, thanks.
Please remember that for a word to have been uttered for a human, the brain must work in such and such a way to create the appropriate sequence, and sounds. As for God, he is all-powerful.
There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means.
I agree, it is quite obvious that it means "obey he who brought forth the message".
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Peace all,
The absurdity of the "uncreated Quran" only demonstrates how Sunnism and its blind followers are completely irrational. Thus it is not surprising to see Hussein dance around the major logical problems that his dogmatic absurdity has created. He is not the first or the last, no Sunni was ever able to address the following issues
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Since the great reading is uncreated it also follows that every word in the great reading is uncreated. So the words of Moses and all the other people who speak and even Iblis's words (he speaks there too) are all uncreated. Of course this is absurd.
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Since the great reading is in Arabic and it is uncreated and eternal then Arabic must be uncreated and eternal too!!! Of course this is another absurdity.
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Since Jesus is clearly descibed as as "the god's word", then he too is uncreated and eternal. Of course Hussein keeps dancing around this issue and dismisses it because he can't properly address it.
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The god told us that he has sent previous books, however those were corrupted. Hussein is saying that the words of god are like god and thus are uncreated and eternal. Since we know that those words were corrupted, then they are certainly not eternal and certainly god cannot be corrupted so Hussein' analogy is completely false.
Others have brought many other issues and I can bring many more problems with the Sunni anti-rationalist dogma of the "uncreated Quran", but let's see if they can answer the above. I know they can't and they will continue to dance around the issues.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace OPF,
Can you please explain the significance of the Quran being created or not, thanks.
Isn't it obvious? The same people who claim such nonsense are those who hang the so-called Quran on their walls and make amulets out of its pages to ward-off evil spirits, cure the sick and all sorts of nonsense. They have essentially turned the great reading into an idol.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
The Qur'an is never standing alone. The words of God are always with God,
No, you do not worship the Qur'an because you worship the standing alone entity and that is God.
Re-read your post; an obvious contradiction using deductive reasoning if A then B.
In addition to what Ayman posted; read...
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi...
1037 And this the Qur'an was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than God,...Inna jaAAalnahu qur-anan AAarabiyyan laAAallakum taAAqiloona
433 We made it an Arabic Qur?an, maybe/perhaps you reason/comprehend.Fa-innama yassarnahu bilisanika laAAallahum yatathakkaroona
4458 So We eased it/We made it flexible with your tongue/language, maybe/perhaps they mention/remember. -
Salaam all,
1- The issue is that Sunnis are not going outside of the Qur'an to claim the Qur'an created. You guys however, are using your nonsense logic to make things up, and then imposing it on the Qur'an. Where is the Qur'an alone business?.
2- I responded to the issue of Jesus before.
3- Yuftara and jaal do not mean manufactured/created.
4- When you think and then you speak you are not creating words. You are expressing yourself. Expressing yourself is not an act of creation. Your words are created because you are created. The words of God are not created because God is not created.
5- The Qur'an is the word of God. When it mentions the words of the creation in it, it is still the word of God narrating what the others said. We do that all the time.
6- As for the corruption of the bible and the Torah, that is God's business. His words were not changed, they were always with him. He allowed the people to make changes because He was planning for another message. It is part of God employing abrogation.
Take care all.
hussein
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As for the Arabic language, it does not become eternal. God can speak in any way he wants, including Arabic and Hebrew. That does not the make the languages God or uncreated. Only the words of God are uncreated. The languages in which He expressed himself to us remain what they are with no additional halo around them.
When you believe that the Qur'an is not created, then you are not believing in another God. Why? becaues the words of God are not separated from God. What you hang on the walls are the created means of communicating God's words. The means of communication are created, while the words are not.
Hussein
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Peace,
3- Yuftara and jaal do not mean manufactured/created.
4- When you think and then you speak you are not creating words. You are expressing yourself. Expressing yourself is not an act of creation. Your words are created because you are created. The words of God are not created because God is not created.
Are you 100% sure about this and how things with God really are?
Why not go according to how God says they are?
Please translate the exact meaning for above verses posted along with these...
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/19/19_97.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Thank you.
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Peace,
Are you 100% sure about this and how things with God really are?
Why not go according to how God says they are?
Please translate the exact meaning for above verses posted along with these...
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/19/19_97.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Thank you.
Dear
These also need translation2252
3108
456
2253
4251
275
96
4815
11120
1813
NoteIf some aya is not found in the respective reference then please let me know.Thanks
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Dear
These also need translation2252
3108
456
2253
4251
275
96
4815
11120
1813
NoteIf some aya is not found in the respective reference then please let me know.Thanks
Obviously, most on this site AGREE those are God?s verses.
However, the question is did God create them? The verses you posted don?t address this.
To claim Qur'an is eternal according to other sources/definitions is serious. What did God say?
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Btw, Leoxyz ? Yes, you did miss a few?
413
552
801Perhaps you can translate especially beginning of Surah 80 -- love to see your version.
Peace
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Obviously, most on this site AGREE those are God?s verses.
However, the question is did God create them? The verses you posted don?t address this.
To claim Qur'an is eternal according to other sources/definitions is serious. What did God say?
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
Btw, Leoxyz ? Yes, you did miss a few?
413
552
801Perhaps you can translate especially beginning of Surah 80 -- love to see your version.
Peace
So you want to say
- = means "To create ????
- = means "To create????
- = means "To create????
2156
Only and only a Quranist can say like this.
After all in-built defect They can
1Ma3toof/ma3toof alai can have different "i3raab"
2Quran can be translated on "may/may not" pattern
3Tamper the translation
4Say that "To teach a book is same as to give a book"
Then why not this distortion of mean as usual.?? -
So you want to say
- = means "To create ????
- = means "To create????
- = means "To create????
2156
Only and only a Quranist can say like this.
After all in-built defect They can
1Ma3toof/ma3toof alai can have different "i3raab"
2Quran can be translated on "may/may not" pattern
3Tamper the translation
4Say that "To teach a book is same as to give a book"
Then why not this distortion of mean as usual.??No, I want you to say what these verses mean.
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
413
552
801Why no opinion, always the freaky faces; why don?t you add some value to these discussions ? are you afraid of making a mistake?
Where is your confidence and faith in that what you believe is right?
Do you even have an opinion other than that we are all wicked pseudo-intellectuals?
http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pseudointellectual&r=f
- pseudointellectual
Created solely as an attempt to display the author's intellectual prowess though actually void of real pith; intellectualism as style rather than substance. Often relies on heavy name dropping and erudite, obscure terminology instead of easily understood, common words.
- Pseudointellectual
One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.
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No, I want you to say what these verses mean.
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm
http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm
413
552
801Why no opinion, always the freaky faces; why dont you add some value to these discussions are you afraid of making a mistake?
Where is your confidence and faith in that what you believe is right?
Do you even have an opinion other than that we are all wicked pseudo-intellectuals?
http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pseudointellectual&r=f
- pseudointellectual
Created solely as an attempt to display the author's intellectual prowess though actually void of real pith; intellectualism as style rather than substance. Often relies on heavy name dropping and erudite, obscure terminology instead of easily understood, common words.
- Pseudointellectual
One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.
Actually you people do not have understanding of the Holy Quran;
You tell me the group who thinks
To give the book/To teach the book are synonymous
Who say that "Talaa/yatoo" is synonymous to creation (From your post I deduct this meaning if not please correct me)
What can you expect out of them .
Can they interpret the Quran
Who is the Greatest Quran temperer of the time ,A QURANIST.First prove that "Talaa/yatloo", kallama/yokallimo ' qassa/yaqussu " means creation ,then I will give the translation of those ayaas.
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Peace
Cant you all just agree to disagree. It says in the Quran, "We will see who is right", and just leave it at that. You think you are right, they think they are right. At the end, we will all find out who was right.
Now, Leon, instead of making all these topics to prove that you are right, can you not just go to a Sunni board and fellowship with them that you will be all the one of the 72 sects that go to Heaven? It seems to me that you want to incite a board war here, but only God knows your intent.
Obviously if someone did the same thing you were doing on a Sunni board everyone would get mad. The conversations between everyone doesn't seem productive in the least and is just making people mad.
God knows best.
Peace
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Peace
Cant you all just agree to disagree. It says in the Quran, "We will see who is right", and just leave it at that. You think you are right, they think they are right. At the end, we will all find out who was right.
Now, Leon, instead of making all these topics to prove that you are right, can you not just go to a Sunni board and fellowship with them that you will be all the one of the 72 sects that go to Heaven? It seems to me that you want to incite a board war here, but only God knows your intent.
Obviously if someone did the same thing you were doing on a Sunni board everyone would get mad. The conversations between everyone doesn't seem productive in the least and is just making people mad.
God knows best.
Peace
Who told you that I am a Sunni ?
I am a Quran lover muslim not a "Quranist ".
BTW Who is sunni ?? Would you please explain ? -
Peace
Who told you that I am a Sunni ?
I am a Quran lover muslim not a "Quranist ".
BTW Who is sunni ?? Would you please explain ?My apoligies if you are not a Sunni and dont follow Hadith. But my statements still stand. If you are just here to incite a war or "convert", please dont do so as its only going in circles. Reason I state this is because I notice how you create new topics to virtually convey the same message, which is basically the nature of trolls.
Peace
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What a genious! a leftist is a left hater, a rightist is a right hater bravo
I hate black people, but I have black friends.
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ayman
Isn't it obvious? The same people who claim such nonsense are those who hang the so-called Quran on their walls and make amulets out of its pages to ward-off evil spirits, cure the sick and all sorts of nonsense. They have essentially turned the great reading into an idol.
Peace,Ayman
It is not hard to figure out, who has turned the great reading in to an idol
offcourse those who have named themselves as "Quranists" in contradiction to Allah's word who has called them "Muslims".
Same is true with "Sunni's" Shia's etc.