To Obey the Prophet(PBUH) is obligatory to every Muslim

[ayman]

Peace all,

The absurdity of the "uncreated Quran" only demonstrates how Sunnism and its blind followers are completely irrational. Thus it is not surprising to see Hussein dance around the major logical problems that his dogmatic absurdity has created. He is not the first or the last, no Sunni was ever able to address the following issues

1. Since the great reading is uncreated it also follows that every word in the great reading is uncreated. So the words of Moses and all the other people who speak and even Iblis's words (he speaks there too) are all uncreated. Of course this is absurd.

2. Since the great reading is in Arabic and it is uncreated and eternal then Arabic must be uncreated and eternal too!!! Of course this is another absurdity.

3. Since Jesus is clearly descibed as as "the god's word", then he too is uncreated and eternal. Of course Hussein keeps dancing around this issue and dismisses it because he can't properly address it.

4. The god told us that he has sent previous books, however those were corrupted. Hussein is saying that the words of god are like god and thus are uncreated and eternal. Since we know that those words were corrupted, then they are certainly not eternal and certainly god cannot be corrupted so Hussein' analogy is completely false.

Others have brought many other issues and I can bring many more problems with the Sunni anti-rationalist dogma of the "uncreated Quran", but let's see if they can answer the above. I know they can't and they will continue to dance around the issues.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace OPF,

Can you please explain the significance of the Quran being created or not, thanks.

Isn't it obvious? The same people who claim such nonsense are those who hang the so-called Quran on their walls and make amulets out of its pages to ward-off evil spirits, cure the sick and all sorts of nonsense. They have essentially turned the great reading into an idol.

Peace,

Ayman

[unknownuser]

Peace,

The Qur'an is never standing alone. The words of God are always with God,

No, you do not worship the Qur'an because you worship the standing alone entity and that is God.

Re-read your post; an obvious contradiction using deductive reasoning if A then B.

In addition to what Ayman posted; read...

Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi...
1037 And this the Qur'an was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than God,...

Inna jaAAalnahu qur-anan AAarabiyyan laAAallakum taAAqiloona
433 We made it an Arabic Qur?an, maybe/perhaps you reason/comprehend.

Fa-innama yassarnahu bilisanika laAAallahum yatathakkaroona
4458 So We eased it/We made it flexible with your tongue/language, maybe/perhaps they mention/remember.

[hlatif]

Salaam all,

1- The issue is that Sunnis are not going outside of the Qur'an to claim the Qur'an created. You guys however, are using your nonsense logic to make things up, and then imposing it on the Qur'an. Where is the Qur'an alone business?.

2- I responded to the issue of Jesus before.

3- Yuftara and jaal do not mean manufactured/created.

4- When you think and then you speak you are not creating words. You are expressing yourself. Expressing yourself is not an act of creation. Your words are created because you are created. The words of God are not created because God is not created.

5- The Qur'an is the word of God. When it mentions the words of the creation in it, it is still the word of God narrating what the others said. We do that all the time.

6- As for the corruption of the bible and the Torah, that is God's business. His words were not changed, they were always with him. He allowed the people to make changes because He was planning for another message. It is part of God employing abrogation.

Take care all.

hussein

[hlatif]

As for the Arabic language, it does not become eternal. God can speak in any way he wants, including Arabic and Hebrew. That does not the make the languages God or uncreated. Only the words of God are uncreated. The languages in which He expressed himself to us remain what they are with no additional halo around them.

When you believe that the Qur'an is not created, then you are not believing in another God. Why? becaues the words of God are not separated from God. What you hang on the walls are the created means of communicating God's words. The means of communication are created, while the words are not.

Hussein

[unknownuser]

Peace,

3- Yuftara and jaal do not mean manufactured/created.

4- When you think and then you speak you are not creating words. You are expressing yourself. Expressing yourself is not an act of creation. Your words are created because you are created. The words of God are not created because God is not created.

Are you 100% sure about this and how things with God really are?

Why not go according to how God says they are?

Please translate the exact meaning for above verses posted along with these...

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/19/19_97.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm

Thank you.

[Leoxyz]

Peace,

Are you 100% sure about this and how things with God really are?

Why not go according to how God says they are?

Please translate the exact meaning for above verses posted along with these...

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/19/19_97.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm

Thank you.

Dear
These also need translation

2252

3108

456

2253

4251

275

96

4815

11120

1813

NoteIf some aya is not found in the respective reference then please let me know.Thanks

[unknownuser]

Dear
These also need translation

2252

3108

456

2253

4251

275

96

4815

11120

1813

NoteIf some aya is not found in the respective reference then please let me know.Thanks

Obviously, most on this site AGREE those are God?s verses.

However, the question is did God create them? The verses you posted don?t address this.

To claim Qur'an is eternal according to other sources/definitions is serious. What did God say?

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm

Btw, Leoxyz ? Yes, you did miss a few?

413
552
801

Perhaps you can translate especially beginning of Surah 80 -- love to see your version.

Peace

[Leoxyz]

Obviously, most on this site AGREE those are God?s verses.

However, the question is did God create them? The verses you posted don?t address this.

To claim Qur'an is eternal according to other sources/definitions is serious. What did God say?

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm

Btw, Leoxyz ? Yes, you did miss a few?

413
552
801

Perhaps you can translate especially beginning of Surah 80 -- love to see your version.

Peace

So you want to say

• = means "To create ????
• = means "To create????
• = means "To create????
  2156

Only and only a Quranist can say like this.
After all in-built defect They can
1Ma3toof/ma3toof alai can have different "i3raab"
2Quran can be translated on "may/may not" pattern
3Tamper the translation
4Say that "To teach a book is same as to give a book"
Then why not this distortion of mean as usual.??

[unknownuser]

So you want to say

• = means "To create ????
• = means "To create????
• = means "To create????
  2156

Only and only a Quranist can say like this.
After all in-built defect They can
1Ma3toof/ma3toof alai can have different "i3raab"
2Quran can be translated on "may/may not" pattern
3Tamper the translation
4Say that "To teach a book is same as to give a book"
Then why not this distortion of mean as usual.??

No, I want you to say what these verses mean.

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm

413
552
801

Why no opinion, always the freaky faces; why don?t you add some value to these discussions ? are you afraid of making a mistake?

Where is your confidence and faith in that what you believe is right?

Do you even have an opinion other than that we are all wicked pseudo-intellectuals?

http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pseudointellectual&r=f

1. pseudointellectual

Created solely as an attempt to display the author's intellectual prowess though actually void of real pith; intellectualism as style rather than substance. Often relies on heavy name dropping and erudite, obscure terminology instead of easily understood, common words.

2. Pseudointellectual

One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.

[Leoxyz]

No, I want you to say what these verses mean.

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/10/10_37.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/43/43_3.htm

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/44/44_58.htm

413
552
801

Why no opinion, always the freaky faces; why dont you add some value to these discussions are you afraid of making a mistake?

Where is your confidence and faith in that what you believe is right?

Do you even have an opinion other than that we are all wicked pseudo-intellectuals?

http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pseudointellectual&r=f

1. pseudointellectual

Created solely as an attempt to display the author's intellectual prowess though actually void of real pith; intellectualism as style rather than substance. Often relies on heavy name dropping and erudite, obscure terminology instead of easily understood, common words.

2. Pseudointellectual

One who imposes a smart remark yet truly it makes little to no sense - nonsense. Usually happens when people come up with real bad comebacks that either make no sense or are thoughtless - empty words.

Actually you people do not have understanding of the Holy Quran;
You tell me the group who thinks
To give the book/To teach the book are synonymous
Who say that "Talaa/yatoo" is synonymous to creation (From your post I deduct this meaning if not please correct me)
What can you expect out of them .
Can they interpret the Quran
Who is the Greatest Quran temperer of the time ,A QURANIST.

First prove that "Talaa/yatloo", kallama/yokallimo ' qassa/yaqussu " means creation ,then I will give the translation of those ayaas.

[amuslim]

Peace

Cant you all just agree to disagree. It says in the Quran, "We will see who is right", and just leave it at that. You think you are right, they think they are right. At the end, we will all find out who was right.

Now, Leon, instead of making all these topics to prove that you are right, can you not just go to a Sunni board and fellowship with them that you will be all the one of the 72 sects that go to Heaven? It seems to me that you want to incite a board war here, but only God knows your intent.

Obviously if someone did the same thing you were doing on a Sunni board everyone would get mad. The conversations between everyone doesn't seem productive in the least and is just making people mad.

God knows best.

Peace

[Leoxyz]

Peace

Cant you all just agree to disagree. It says in the Quran, "We will see who is right", and just leave it at that. You think you are right, they think they are right. At the end, we will all find out who was right.

Now, Leon, instead of making all these topics to prove that you are right, can you not just go to a Sunni board and fellowship with them that you will be all the one of the 72 sects that go to Heaven? It seems to me that you want to incite a board war here, but only God knows your intent.

Obviously if someone did the same thing you were doing on a Sunni board everyone would get mad. The conversations between everyone doesn't seem productive in the least and is just making people mad.

God knows best.

Peace

Who told you that I am a Sunni ?
I am a Quran lover muslim not a "Quranist ".
BTW Who is sunni ?? Would you please explain ?

[Samia]

Who told you that I am a Sunni ?
I am a Quran lover muslim not a "Quranist ".
BTW Who is sunni ?? Would you please explain ?

What a genious! a leftist is a left hater, a rightist is a right hater bravo

[amuslim]

Peace

Who told you that I am a Sunni ?
I am a Quran lover muslim not a "Quranist ".
BTW Who is sunni ?? Would you please explain ?

My apoligies if you are not a Sunni and dont follow Hadith. But my statements still stand. If you are just here to incite a war or "convert", please dont do so as its only going in circles. Reason I state this is because I notice how you create new topics to virtually convey the same message, which is basically the nature of trolls.

Peace

[unknownuser]

What a genious! a leftist is a left hater, a rightist is a right hater bravo

I hate black people, but I have black friends.

[Raj-ah]

ayman

Isn't it obvious? The same people who claim such nonsense are those who hang the so-called Quran on their walls and make amulets out of its pages to ward-off evil spirits, cure the sick and all sorts of nonsense. They have essentially turned the great reading into an idol.
Peace,

Ayman

It is not hard to figure out, who has turned the great reading in to an idol
offcourse those who have named themselves as "Quranists" in contradiction to Allah's word who has called them "Muslims".
Same is true with "Sunni's" Shia's etc.

[unknownuser]

ayman
It is not hard to figure out, who has turned the great reading in to an idol
offcourse those who have named themselves as "Quranists" in contradiction to Allah's word who has called them "Muslims".
Same is true with "Sunni's" Shia's etc.

Please show me someone who calls themself a "Quranist" here. Are you making a generic statement?

[Zulf]

LEOXYZ

What is your criteria for a thing to be 100% correct and verified?

Well, strictly speaking, you can't verify something unless you yourself observe it. It's actually quite tricky, one can be exposed to illusions, like in the case of stage magicians, and then we have selective awareness etc etc... and if you really go far, you won't even be able to be sure that the moon is still there once it disappears behind the horizon, if you have no other means of verifying it.

In the case of hadeeth and sunnah... well, all we can go on is verbal testimony over hundreds of years, and such narrations are considered not to be as accurate as the original statements, no matter what the topic is, hadeth or folklore or witness reports of public events.

As far as I understand the "quran alone movement", which is really nothing new or radical, the rejection of hadeeth as something you must follow and obey stems from the quran itself and what is written therein. The possibility to reject hadeeth and sunnah as something obligatory is given through the quran and how different ayas and their context are understood.

I guess there is no need to bring up all ayas etc here and now, that are used as grounds for rejecting hadeeth as something obligatory.. there are so many threads for that already.

HLATIF

Zulf, perhaps you can question your logic a little.

God knew that the messenger will order things outside the Qur'an.

He would not have said "obey the messenger" if He did not want us to obey those orders.

There is also no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means.

All Muslims but you guys understand it the same way.

They disagree on if or what he said, but not on the meaning of the order from God nor the fact that it is mandatory.

Replies to the quotes above

1. Of course I can question my logic a little. Do you see some special flaw that you can point out so that I can scrutinize it? I hope I was not asked to question my logic just because my conclusion differs from your/others.

2. Speculation! Yes, God is all-knowing, that's not the problem, the problem is the second part of your claim and what it means. Yes, sure, the prophet ordered things, like matters of his household and whatever business he was into. I can't see any reason to believe that the prophet ordered things outside the quran that would be incorporated into the body of law that is obligatory for us to follow. When he received the quran, and was instructed to deliver it, why would he create another body of law in shape of some sort of a quran-wannabe? The prophet was a human being, he was not an organic machine that only and only recited the quran. Obviously he uttered alot of words in all matters of life, such as food, business, war, weather, infrastructure of his village etc etc etc. Every word he uttered didn't become law just becasue he also received the quran. Why would it??

3. "Those orders".... so the problem is what exactly "those orders" were. Some people say it was only the ayats of the quran, while others say it was how the prophet instructed people to urinate, eat and move etc. It all boils down to what we believe that the prophet actually ordered. Unfortunately we don't have any digital tapes from those days, so we will never know. I guess this is just another challenge from God. We can however learn from the quran on this matter. We do believe in the quran as an intact scripture from God.

4. Yes and No. There is no disagreement about what "obey the messenger" means as far as vocabulary and grammar in concerned. This is however is big fat disagreement on what it PRACTICALLY means, i.e. should we obey his message (the quran) or EVERYTHING which he ALLEDGELY said, ordered and did.

5. "All muslims"? Well, I think this is a bit dangerous generalization. Neither "muslims" nor "you guys" are homogeneous and welldefined groups... BUT I understand what you mean. You mean "hadeeth/sunnah obeyers" contra "hadeeth/sunnah independents". It doesn't matter who believes/understands what. Number don't count. The quran does not speak well about following the majority anyway... but this is anyway not the issue. Regardless of what other think, we must try to reach a logic, constructive and sound conclusion, and keep improving it.

6. So the sunnis disagree on if and what the prophet said, but not that obeying him is mandatory. Well, the "quran aloners" along with all other "muslims" have exactly the same idea!! We all agree to obey the messenger!! But we diesagree on if and what the prophet said! That is, we disagree on what the message is!! Some say it is only the quran, others say it is more than the quran. That's it. This is the difference.

All the best!
Peace!

[Samia]

Sunnis do not believe that hadeeth is divine law.

Hussein

Salaam Hussein

That's not true. If they believe that a hadith can abrogate a verse, then not only do they believe that hadith is divine law, but they believe that it is more divine than the qur'aan. Example "No will to benefit a heir laa wasiyyata liwaarithin" abrogates 2180; stoning/killing adulterers abrogates 242; killing the apostates contradicts the teachings of the qur'aan. The theory of hadith/actions of the prophet abrogating some verses finds its way to the Islamic law/shari3a

Actually, the schools of thought amongst sunnism differ about whether or not to apply or accept many hadeeths.

This is not like differ in accepting hadith. they accept the main ones. When they differ, they have to add up to the hadith, like that of suckling the adult where those opposing it said it was not "suckling", but she had do "milk" herself and serve him the milk in a cup. As stupid as this explanation is, it is plain forgery. The woman is sterile for heaven's sake, and that's why she adopted this boy-turned-man. Even if she was not, and even if she had children, does this mean she will have milk a la carte?

and...One baseless hadith is too many to find its way in the legislation