Hell

cosmicdancer

Peace

Either that or opposition.

Joe

However you spin it - the Qur'an says that unbelievers will be roasted, boiled and generally made to suffer unspeakable agony - over and over again.

I can't believe in such a God.

I used to try and soften and explain all this away by saying it is just allegory and metaphore - but I was being dishonest with myself.

TheNabi

Peace Cosmic

I'm not sure if you are aware, but there are other attributes attributed to this divine being than that of Mercy.

Joe

cosmicdancer

Peace Cosmic

I'm not sure if you are aware, but there are other attributes attributed to this divine being than that of Mercy.

Joe

I know.

And I don't have a problem with punishing murderers, rapists, tyrants etc...

But good decent people whose only crime is that they didn't believe? That I find I can't believe.

And whenever the Qur'an talks about Hell it is nearly always as a punishment for those who don't believe - not rapists or murderers etc...

Leoxyz

Arnold Yasin did a good piece on this - http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0

It seems he is using QXP there, which is not a direct translation (some people find it very hard to comprehend this).

Article is from website
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0

The article states

Jahannam(arabic&hebrew)/Gehenna(greek) is an old valley south of Jerusalem, Ja=valley Hannam=valley name. People used to be sacrificed there to idols, also the valley was used later on as an execution ground for criminals and also a place were bodies and clothing were burned, who had died of a contagious diseas. Also in Jesus's time it was still used for burning the rubbish and garbage of Jerusalem. Which in itself gives the idea that Jahannam is made 'out of rubbish' or illusion.

Another attempt to take the shelter of History to explain Quranic words.
{Hatred for Hadith ,Love for history = double standard}

Article further says;

God already explains that the descriptions of Gehenna and Djenna are metaphors, allegories. (see 1335 and 4715)

It is another Tampering of Quranic meanings
Actual ayas are
4712

1335
Where Allah has said "Jannat" and "Jahannum" are
-metaphors
-allegories
Show me

TheNabi

Peace

But good decent people whose only crime is that they didn't believe?

I think it quite hard to go about the days of my life without acknowledging and praising the source behind myself and all the relationships with my self.

Joe

cosmicdancer

Peace

I think it quite hard to go about the days of my life without acknowledging and praising the source behind myself and all the relationships with my self.

Joe

Well good for you.

But I cannot believe in a God who tortures people who are not as perfect as you are.

unknownuser

I fear for you, if that is your learning technique. Pay attention, it is 4715, not 4712. Also, ask the author, not me.

4715 - ) (l

1335 - ) (

TheNabi

Peace

Perfect as myself? Please, let's not let this conversation get out of hand or I shall have to close this thread or send you a warning. I did not claim to be perfect of course. I'm just speaking from my own experience which is why I was speaking of me and not we.

Joe

unknownuser

Well good for you.

But I cannot believe in a God who tortures people who are not as perfect as you are.

Torture is very inhuman, and if any god likes that he is very much a psycho for sure!

unknownuser

Peace

or I shall have to close this thread or send you a warning.
Joe

rotfl

zenje

Isn't it funny that Leoxyz is addressing and debating others, but not the starter of this thread (whom he obviously disagrees with)?
Or is it that enemy of my enemy thing again? ignore

Leoxyz

Isn't it funny that Leoxyz is addressing and debating others, but not the starter of this thread (whom he obviously disagrees with)?
Or is it that enemy of my enemy thing again? ignore

He is an open disbeliever.His point of view is obviously not acceptable .

But to change the meaning of the Holy Quran is more detrimental not only for our muslim brothers and sisters over here but also for whole muslim umma.
"Janna " and "Hell" are ther real abodes for the righteous and sinners/unbelievers respectively.
These are neither metaphorical nor allegorical places.

Navid

I think actions play into the grand scheme of things A LOT, perhaps more than anything else. Not just belief. I think that is evident in the quran, but it might just be my "tampered" understanding of the quran, as leoxyz likes to put it

unknownuser

A butterfly flaps its wings in Australia, tornado ensues in the USA.

Leoxyz

I fear for you, if that is your learning technique. Pay attention, it is 4715, not 4712. Also, ask the author, not me.

4715 - ) (l

1335 - ) (

Even in these ayaas ,tell me where it is showing that these abodes are metaphorical or allegorical.
The word "masal" is showing the similie.
If you say that example of "X" is that of "Y" ,how does it prove that "X" does not exist tangibly.
What a Quranic Thought!!!.Only a Quranist can think on these lines.
If someone says that ,Zeebra is likened to donkey ,then according to Quranists "Zeebra " does not exist and it is
-metaphorical
-allegorical
Subhanallah

unknownuser

Even in these ayaas ,tell me where it is showing that these abodes are metaphorical or allegorical.
The word "masal" is showing the similie.
If you say that example of "X" is that of "Y" ,how does it prove that "X" does not exist tangibly.
What a Quranic Thought!!!.Only a Quranist can think on these lines.
If someone says that ,Zeebra is likened to donkey ,then according to Quranists "Zeebra " does not exist and it is
-metaphorical
-allegorical
Subhanallah

The description given in the verses is a similitude, an allegory. Please do not put words into my mouth.

Navid

I always laugh when I see things like "What a Quranic Thought!!!.Only a Quranist can think on these lines."

The irony of the generalization is killing me

Anyway, on with the discussion, just wanted to get that off my chest. Sorry to intrude

SatanHatesMe

I discipline my kids.

But I wouldn't burn their skins, pour boiling water into their skull, or make them eat fruit that shred their intestine - over and over again?

Glad to hear that!!! )

But i think you missed my point. First remember that these are warnings of the consequences of your actions. For example, if your child was about to touch a hot pot or spinning blades, wouldn't you warn the child? You may say "dont touch that pot, you will burn your hand" or "dont put your hand there, it will get cut off." These are actual consequences of your child action of touching a hot pot or spinning blades. Such is the warnings of the Hell. It is consequences of our actions. God warns us of it (4165).

And for what?

Because they murdererd? Raped? or even stole?

No.

Because they didn't believe!

Doesn't sound like a Merciful God.

Sounds like a an vain, egotistical, vindictive, petty, and jealous God.

Sounds like a made up God.

This is an illogical argument. If you believe judgment, accountability, and discipline is about a vain, egotistical, vindictive, petty, and jealous GOD, why do you obey laws of the land? Why don't you rob people? Why don't you rape women? You don't you kill a man? Why do you care for you child? Why try to make other people happy? Why do you behavior with a moral consciousness? Why? Because you fear the consequences.

People you claim they disbelieve in GOD existence are just the most confused deniers, because your action of your daily life reflect your awareness of a Great Power and ultimate accountably. I TRUE disbelieve in GOD existence will live his life with NO FEAR OF CONSEQUENCES, no fear of morality, no fear of decency, no shame, and no fear of accountability. People who say "there is no GOD" or "the concept of GOD is man-made" sound so hypocritical because their daily actions and activities testifies to the opposite.

Leoxyz

The description given in the verses is a similitude, an allegory. Please do not put words into my mouth.

The thing which cannot be understood by a Quranist is that
-Janna and Hell are among the "alghaib" and these cannot be thought of and sensed by human mind.
-the principle is ,to make a thing thought that is always given example of a perceptible and easily thought of example.
-How does this prove that "alghaib" does not exist?

I think this is also beyond perception of "pseudointellectuals"
210
(210) In their hearts is a disease which Allah has increased all the more *12 and a painful doom is in store for them for the lie they utter.

Navid

The thing which cannot be understood by a Quranist is that
-Janna and Hell are among the "alghaib" and these cannot be thought of and sensed by human mind.
-the principle is ,to make a thing thought that is always given example of a perceptible and easily thought of example.
-How does this prove that "alghaib" does not exist?

I think this is also beyond perception of "pseudointellectuals"
210
(210) In their hearts is a disease which Allah has increased all the more *12 and a painful doom is in store for them for the lie they utter.

Are you honestly asserting that people here don't believe in heaven and hell? They are arguing that heaven/hell DOES exist, just not literally in the sense that the quran states. And you yourself proved this

-Janna and Hell are among the "alghaib" and these cannot be thought of and sensed by human mind.
-the principle is ,to make a thing thought that is always given example of a perceptible and easily thought of example.
-How does this prove that "alghaib" does not exist?

Exactly, they do exist. However, not as literally as described in the quran. They are simply examples God has given us in which we can associate with pain/pleasure (hell/heaven), because we as humans can not truly comprehend "heaven" and "hell."

This is easy to see, and this is what you yourself stated, so we are on the same page, yes?