Hell
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Peace Lobster,
But in 18 years at this job, I have never seen any evidence of life after death.
You can live 180 years and you won't 'see' evidence of life after death. For that you have to die.I guess it would be fair if people could know about it without any doubt.
Those who believe have no doubt.I agree we get a lot of chances in this life. An infinite amount. As many as we like. That's mercy.
If we are in a "bad" state, we feel bad, and the only way to get out of it is to change ourselves. So unbelievers are always in hell, because if they aren't in hell, they aren't unbelievers.
That's why I believe god is merciful, because if we decide to change ourselves, god changes our condition.
I have no problem with that reasoning.and there is fear in the Quran. Every few verses there is a description of what will happen to people in hell, and it's equally scary every time. I don't have a problem with it telling us how it is, but it is the constant repitition that gets to me. Why is the quran pounding this fear of hell into us?
That means it's done it's job, i.e. being a reminder. Hell is not a pretty place to be, there's no use sitting and being afraid of it.I spoke to a lady one the phone today... she said her name was Heaven.
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I reckon you've got proof for this claim
Have you read the a book called the Qur'an?
Here's just a couple of verses
As for those who reject Our Signs, We will roast them in a Fire. Every time their skins are burned off, We will replace them with new skins so that they can taste the punishment. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.
As for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured over their heads, melting that which is in their bellies and their skins too, and for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape they are driven back therein and (it will be said) Taste the doom of burning
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You have the right to like/dislike this torture (it is human nature, in any case), but can you please explain how it impacts your life now?
It affects my decision whether or not to believe that the Qur'an is the word of God.
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It affects my decision whether or not to believe that the Qur'an is the word of God.
Is it simply the supposed contradiction between "merciful" and "eternal hell" or anything else?
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Is it simply the supposed contradiction between "merciful" and "eternal hell" or anything else?
Other things too.
But they are not the subject of this thread.
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So if the quran said everyone was going to heaven and the world is a very happy place, would you be more inclined to believe it is from God?
Just asking. Personally, I think we should primarily look at objective, empirical evidence as opposed to personal desires and what doesn't sound appealing to us.
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So if the quran said everyone was going to heaven and the world is a very happy place, would you be more inclined to believe it is from God?
Just asking. Personally, I think we should primarily look at objective, empirical evidence as opposed to personal desires and what doesn't sound appealing to us.
If it said that I suspect I wouldn't have had so much problem believing - but don't know for sure.
What are the objective reasons for believing that the Qur'an is the word of God?
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If it said that I suspect I wouldn't have had so much problem believing - but don't know for sure.
What are the objective reasons for believing that the Qur'an is the word of God?
Oh alright
There are plenty. Here are a few http//www.quran.org/code/allmmlh.htm
If you click on "Quran and Science" and look at the pull down menu on the top right, there are a lot more as well.
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What are the objective reasons for believing that the Qur'an is the word of God?
NONE whatsoever! -
NONE whatsoever!
Salams
An honest question to Genteel and CosmicDancer
If you are convinced that Quran is not a word of God then what are you doing on this forum?
There are two kinds of people in this forum
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
Those who are convinced that it is not the word of God spend their time elsewhere; unless they know deep down that they are wrong.
Also how would you explain the word count miracle? Is the word count miracle a deception? Or was Mohammad super super smart to hide this mirale himself in Quran?
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Oh alright
There are plenty. Here are a few http//www.quran.org/code/allmmlh.htm
If you click on "Quran and Science" and look at the pull down menu on the top right, there are a lot more as well.
What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?
The first one on that link says "The word a day (yewm) is used 365 times in the Quran."
What if you discovered that this was not true.
Is your belief in the Qur'an based on these mathematical miracles?
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NONE whatsoever!
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Salams
An honest question to Genteel and CosmicDancer
If you are convinced that Quran is not a word of God then what are you doing on this forum?
There are two kinds of people in this forum
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
Those who are convinced that it is not the word of God spend their time elsewhere; unless they know deep down that they are wrong.
Also how would you explain the word count miracle? Is the word count miracle a deception? Or was Mohammad super super smart to hide this mirale himself in Quran?
Why am I here?
I believed the Qur'an was the word of God for 48 years.
Do I doubt myself sometimes? All the time.
Do I think deep down I am wrong about the Qur'an? No.
But I do wonder if there is something I missed. Some angle I overlooked? Some interpretation that I was unaware of?
I have a need to test my limits. Look in every corner and under every rock - probe and poke at every question. I do that here but even more on other internet forums. At the moment the internet is my only outlet as I am now isolated from my old community and friends.
The more I probe and look - the more convinced I am that the Qur'an is false.
Why are you here?
As for the two groups you mention
- those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
- those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.
I suspect group 1 have many doubts about Islam also and The Qur'an only group is their last desperate attempt at holding onto their faith. Many come here to seek validation and have their beliefs confirmed so they can feel good about themselves.
As for group 2 - I suspect there are very few of those here.
Most people on this forum have made their mind up already - one way or the other.
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What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?
My friend, the "what if" can go either way.
I think it has been proven beyond reasonable doubts that the count is true. Here is a long debate. Ultimately the opponent ate humble pie and agreed on the count.
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/365days.htm
Another way to prove is to do a count yourself.
Whichever way you do, the burden to verify this is on your shoulder.
Lets suppose for the sake of discussion we both have agreed that the count is correct. What would you say? Can a human write such a book 1400 years ago? I am a computer programmer and I think I am good at math (what a show off I am). I certainly dont think a human can do this. Yes my belief is augmented due to the count and it is enough for me. I accept the book as it is. I try to explore Quran more. There are tons of things that I dont understand. There are things that dont make sense to me. I accept Quran even with all this. On the other hand you want to know why God wrote what he wrote before you accept his words. I dont think it could work this way.
The correct sequence is
YOU SEE MIRACLE -> YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK AS IT IS-> YOU STUDY IT TO LEARN -> YOU ACT ON IT
The wrong sequence is
YOU UNDERSTOOD WHY BOOK SAID WHAT IT SAID -> YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK BECAUSE ALL OF IT MADE SENSE TO YOU-> YOU ACT ON IT
In approach 2 we are assuming we can read God's mind.
People who dont use their brains following sequence 3 which is wrong as well
YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK BECAUSE YOUR MOM (PARENTS/CULTURE) SAID SO-> YOU OPTIONALLY STUDY IT TO LEARN -> YOU OPTIONALLY ACT ON IT
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My friend, the "what if" can go either way.
You didn't answer the question.
What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false? Would it make any difference to you? Is your belief in the Qur'an based on these mathematical miracles?
As for me - there is no way on earth I would base such an important decision as whether or not the Qur'an is the word of God - on lists of words and numbers - regardless of what they correspond or did not correspond with.
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What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?
The first one on that link says "The word ?a day? (yewm) is used 365 times in the Quran."
What if you discovered that this was not true.
Is your belief in the Qur'an based on these mathematical miracles?
Yes, partially. There are many, many more mathematical and scientific signs as you can see on that site. It gets to a point where there are too many "coincidences" and I'm compelled to tell myself "there's something weird with this book." It gets to a point where the chances are too slim for it to simply be coincidence after coincidence after coincidence. This is ONE of the reasons I believe it is from God. If I come across a verse that doesn't sound appealing to me (and I do, trust me), I realize that the signs outweigh a human being's subjectivity.
Also, I (and I think a lot of others) am always doubting and analyzing. I want to make it clear that I don't blindly follow anything, I've only been muslim for a few years.
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I suspect group 1 have many doubts about Islam also and The Qur'an only group is their last desperate attempt at holding onto their faith. Many come here to seek validation and have their beliefs confirmed so they can feel good about themselves.
...Or to learn more about the quran so they can become better muslims? This isn't primarily a discuss-if-the-quran-is-divine forum. Sorry if people have set beliefs and are simply seeking to better themselves (
Some, on the other hand, do come here simply to validate their beliefs and feel good about themselves
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I have no problem with God doing the same thing.
But he doesn't.
God tortures people.
What's more he tortures people who don't believe in him.
If any human tortured people for disbelief in God I would be against it.
So you agree when human beings torture other people for their deeds? So you support torture under the correct circumstances right?
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CosmicDancer,
I don't under why and how you keep confusing disbelief in GOD as a simply mental state. It means deeds. deeds follow belief. here is a clear cut example. GOD said Pharaoh will go to Hell.
4046
The Hell will be shown to them day and night, and on the Day of Resurrection "Admit Pharaoh's people into the worst retribution."GOD said Pharaoh will go to hell BECAUSE he disbelieve in GOD (311).
Pharaoh disbelief GOD existed. As a matter of fact, Pharaoh believed he was GOD (283.So naturally, with regards to him, certains deeds followed that belief
He prosecuted people (7127),
oppress (7137),
reject any evidence that he was wrong (311)
and try to kill GOD's messenger (Moses) and his followers (1090).THE QURAN is clear, deeds follow belief. GOD doesn't punish someone only because he "disbelieve" in GOD, but actually punish the person base on the deeds produce from that disbelief (just like he rewards a person base on their deeds). Now for you to assumption and say that a person can disbelieve in GOD yet provide no ill deeds is wrong and not realistic. For example, your personal disbelief in GOD may cause you to rejects GOD sign and evidence like Pharoah did. One may reject to feed the poor or do righteous deeds because he disbelieve in accountability. Those are actions and deeds not just mere mental thoughts.