According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?

explorer

Hello Arnold,

When I first started reading your reply I honestly thought I have given the faulty impression of diversion to the audience.
However when I reached till the end I noticed what the problem is.
In my opinion, the problem is that you already have a conclusion in mind "quran has an error" and you are trying to steer the discussion towards that conclusion.

First of all note that I am not a believer in the book.
I have not even read the whole book yet. I am exploring it.
I am a monotheist who believes in a God.

However I dont see any errors in the book related to the discussion of heavens.

Your biggest concern seems to be this

".. the lowest heaven is the universe, but the earth isn't separate from the universe but is rather a subset of it."

You are focussing on the linguistics rather than the concept. This does not bother me because

earth was physically joined with the rest of the universe eons ago. (all atoms in this universe were one unit)
earth is a separate object now.
so sitting on earth we say that earth has been separated from the rest of the universe.
if you are a Marsian then you would say the Mars has been separted from the rest of the universe.

Yes earth is still part of the universe but it was physically joined with the rest of the mass earlier.

I have prepared a space shuttle. I am going to fly in it 100 light years deep in the universe. What would I say?

A- "good bye, I am leaving the earth and going to fly to the universe." (earth and universe are separate entities in this sentense)
B- "good bye, I am leaving earth which is already in the universe; and going to fly to the outside earth part of the universe" (seems unacceptable way of putting it)

You said

"Where does the first sky begin and end? What was raised above the earth? What is decorated by the stars, planets or whatever you want to pick?"

Perhaps the heavens are separated by dimensions (no digression intended).
You are taking "raising" in the sense of a "roof" as in the case of a planetarium.

Do you know what Quran has said about the earth? "We have spread it for you". By this you can deduce that Quran is assuming it to be a flat object. But Quran has also said Earth is an egg shapped. Take "spread" and "egg shapped" together, and you will not reach the faulty conclusion.

(No diversion intended; I am coming back to the discussion; wanted to present an example)

On the same note keep the verses of the Quran in mind that talks about ever expanding universe.
Keep both attributes in mind "ever expanding" and "roof"
It cannot be a roof of a planetarium like structure.
I take it as a "visible roof".

Is Arabic word for "roof" same as "physical roof" in English? Or could it mean "visible roof" as well? This is what you need to research first. Arabic words cannot be translated into English one on one.

You said

"But if we look at the sky, or lowest heaven, (take your pick) as a physical canopy or covering of some sort, it suddenly makes perfect sense for the Quran to say it was separated from the earth, raised above the earth, and is like a canopy, and will rip open during the last days. Seems pretty clear when we put all of the things next to each other. Wow!"

Why should we look at it like a physical canapy? First we have to proof that Quran is talking about a physical canapy? I dont think it is. Otherwise why would it use the word "ever expanding". Also the book talks about folding the universe back on the Judgement Day.

You said

"Yeah, and it was talking about the things they saw shoot across the sky at night time that looked like stars."

You are assuming that Quran is referring to the shooting stars (falling meteors) that we see as the missiles fired to the devils.

You said

"However, if we look at the sky or lowest heaven as a physical canopy of some sort (and the Quran does indeed say it's like a canopy), then all of the verses suddenly fall into place and make absolutely perfect sense with no explanation needed at all. Now, it's easy to make sense out of verses that tell us the heavens were separated from the earth, raised above it, are like a canopy and will rip open like ripped camel skin during the last days. So why wouldn't we interpret them in a manner which works perfectly and instead go with very shaky and implausible interpretations?"

I my opinion, you already have a conclusion in mind. This could lead to unfair arguments.

Sorry if you felt that string theory was a digression. To me that fits like a glove. Diversion was not my intention. Why would I creatively divert? I dont need to defend the book. I am exploring it.

Explorer

Arnold

Hello Arnold,

When I first started reading your reply I honestly thought I have given the faulty impression of diversion to the audience.
However when I reached till the end I noticed what the problem is.
In my opinion, the problem is that you already have a conclusion in mind "quran has an error" and you are trying to steer the discussion towards that conclusion.

No, I'm trying to keep it on point. Quantum Physics has nothing to do with the stars decorating the lower heavens and I made that clear to you.

First of all note that I am not a believer in the book.
I have not even read the whole book yet. I am exploring it.
I am a monotheist who believes in a God.

OK. But to me, I never care what they believe really. It's the actual words that count.

However I dont see any errors in the book related to the discussion of heavens.

Your biggest concern seems to be this

".. the lowest heaven is the universe, but the earth isn't separate from the universe but is rather a subset of it."

Yes. Plain. Simple. Logical.

You are focussing on the linguistics rather than the concept. This does not bother me because

earth was physically joined with the rest of the universe eons ago. (all atoms in this universe were one unit)
earth is a separate object now.

No it is not. It is a subset of it. It is separate from the stars and planets, but the stars and planets are not the lowest heaven, but instead, they are things that decorate it, which l;eaves the lowest heaven as something else that planets and stars decorated. For instance, lights decorate a ceiling, but the two are not the same thing. i already explained this.

so sitting on earth we say that earth has been separated from the rest of the universe.

The verse is not written from our perspective because we weren't around yet to see it happen.

if you are a Marsian then you would say the Mars has been separted from the rest of the universe.

But we didn't say it, God said it, right? But you're right. The verses sure look like one of us said it, and a one of us with 7th century knowledge

Yes earth is still part of the universe but it was physically joined with the rest of the mass earlier.

Physically joined with the stars and planets and the objects in the universe or the universe itself? It doesn't say the earth and the stars and planets were separated, it says the earth and the sky were separated. Important detail.

I have prepared a space shuttle. I am going to fly in it 100 light years deep in the universe. What would I say?

A- "good bye, I am leaving the earth and going to fly to the universe." (earth and universe are separate entities in this sentense)
B- "good bye, I am leaving earth which is already in the universe; and going to fly to the outside earth part of the universe" (seems unacceptable way of putting it)

How about C- I'm going to fly in outer space or fly around the universe. Nobody says I'm going to fly to the universe if you really think about it. Whom do you know that would say "fly to the universe"? That would gain a funny look from most educated people. Fly to the sun, or fly to the moon, or to another galaxy, or to Mars or to outer space. These all work. But fly to the universe would get you funny looks.

You said

"Where does the first sky begin and end? What was raised above the earth? What is decorated by the stars, planets or whatever you want to pick?"

Perhaps the heavens are separated by dimensions (no digression intended).
You are taking "raising" in the sense of a "roof" as in the case of a planetarium.

What else does "raise above" mean?

Do you know what Quran has said about the earth? "We have spread it for you". By this you can deduce that Quran is assuming it to be a flat object. But Quran has also said Earth is an egg shapped. Take "spread" and "egg shapped" together, and you will not reach the faulty conclusion.

No 7930 never was talking about an ostrich egg at all. That is a scam from Naik the Fake. 7930 is talking about the mother ostrich spreading out the dirt and smooting it down as a place for it;'s egg

http//islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=1084&main_cat_id=31

(No diversion intended; I am coming back to the discussion; wanted to present an example)

On the same note keep the verses of the Quran in mind that talks about ever expanding universe.

That is actually not clear.

Keep both attributes in mind "ever expanding" and "roof"
It cannot be a roof of a planetarium like structure.
I take it as a "visible roof".

Like a canopy that will rip open like camel skin during the last days? Does a "visual concept" rip open?

Is Arabic word for "roof" same as "physical roof" in English?

Roof, canopy, covering....does it really make a difference?

Or could it mean "visible roof" as well? This is what you need to research first. Arabic words cannot be translated into English one on one.

A visual concept that will rip open at the end days? A visual concept that was physically separated from the earth in the beginning? Anyway, why would you assume mistranslation to be the case when all of the translators basically agree? Why would you put effort into creating creative possibilities that don't appear to be very likely? See? You're already biased. You're already finished.

You said

"But if we look at the sky, or lowest heaven, (take your pick) as a physical canopy or covering of some sort, it suddenly makes perfect sense for the Quran to say it was separated from the earth, raised above the earth, and is like a canopy, and will rip open during the last days. Seems pretty clear when we put all of the things next to each other. Wow!"

Why should we look at it like a physical canapy?

Because some of the verses say it's like a canopy, and, as explained, it's the only way to make all of the verses work with no problems or contradictions. If we say canopy, then everything is easy. Canopy can be separated from what they cover. They can be raised above it. They can have lights decorating it and they can rip open. Seems pretty easy to me. Why would we look at it any other way? No really good reason to except for the fact that my interpretation puts the Quran at odds with 21st centiry knowledge, and that's the ONLY good reason to reject my clear, easy and simple interpretation.

First we have to proof that Quran is talking about a physical canapy? I dont think it is.

Well, when one says canopy, or something like that, the first thing anybody is clearly supposed to think of is a physical covering of some sort. That's the clear plain interpretation. But, if you think it means some far out interpretation, then it is you who have to substantiate. I don't have to substantiate because it uses default common sense for a default conclusion. In other words, would isn't anybody supposed to envision a physical covering of some sort when the word canopy is used?

Otherwise why would it use the word "ever expanding". Also the book talks about folding the universe back on the Judgement Day.

Those are very dubious interpretations created by modern day scammers such as Naik the Fake. Far from proven or even strongly demonstrated

You said

"Yeah, and it was talking about the things they saw shoot across the sky at night time that looked like stars."

You are assuming that Quran is referring to the shooting stars (falling meteors) that we see as the missiles fired to the devils.

Yes, because 1518 clearly says we can see them.

You said

"However, if we look at the sky or lowest heaven as a physical canopy of some sort (and the Quran does indeed say it's like a canopy), then all of the verses suddenly fall into place and make absolutely perfect sense with no explanation needed at all. Now, it's easy to make sense out of verses that tell us the heavens were separated from the earth, raised above it, are like a canopy and will rip open like ripped camel skin during the last days. So why wouldn't we interpret them in a manner which works perfectly and instead go with very shaky and implausible interpretations?"

I my opinion, you already have a conclusion in mind. This could lead to unfair arguments.

Having a conclusion in mind based on solid objective reasoning and good old common sense does not change the facts nor the point. You have to tell me why what I say is so implausible and why what you say is so plausible. but so far, the only problem with what I say is that it puts the Quran at odds with science, whereas I've shown multiple problems with the theories you are suggesting/creating. Now, you are the one who is going through efforts to stretch the interpretation and prevent the Quran from being in error. I'm just talking about what the Quran actually appears to simply say. So who already has a conclusion or bias in mind? I'm not the one making the creative effort, I merely picked the easiest and most simple idea. Takes no effort on my part.

Sorry if you felt that string theory was a digression. To me that fits like a glove. Diversion was not my intention. Why would I creatively divert? I dont need to defend the book. I am exploring it.
Explorer

That's no problem. I just get that kind of stuff a lot from Muslims, so I jump on it because i know what they are doing and it really bugs me to see them try it.. But it doesn't look like you're motives were the same and instead more innocent. So sorry for jumping on you.

explorer

Hello Arnold,

I heard your point of view. You main concerns are "roof" and "earth is part of universe".

I am more inclined on the plausible side and you are on implausible side. I agree.

The heaven business is not a show stopper for me. Too many unknowns are in the equation.

Off topic You have established that there is an error in Quran. Now what?

Peaceful_Mind

Heaven could refer to the particle horizon of the observable universe.

Arnold

Hello Arnold,

I heard your point of view. You main concerns are "roof" and "earth is part of universe".

I am more inclined on the plausible side and you are on implausible side. I agree.

The heaven business is not a show stopper for me. Too many unknowns are in the equation.

Off topic You have established that there is an error in Quran. Now what?

Now what? Do you realize that Muslims do not insist that the Quran was inspired by God as some suggest about the Bible, but that instead it is claimed to be the word for word, letter for letter dictation of Allah? Does Allah have a 7th century view of the cosmos or did Muhammad? Now what? How could you even ask that? Allah didn't write those verses, Muhammad did. One error, and the entire Quran topples like a house of cards. Don't blame me, as I didn't make that rule, Muslims did. Why do you think that Muslims are the most creative twisters of their scriptures out of any other religion? Because they have to be, because the standard is absolute perfection. a standard that was bound to fail the more and more it talked about things like the cosmos. It should have kept it's mouth shut about things it didn't know about, but it didn't. That was the fatal blunder. Now, if you talk to Muslims, it will be as though none of this conversation ever took place. They appear to have an uncanny ability to fool themselves or lie to themselves. Something I still haven't figured out yet. How do they do it? I just don't know.

Navid

Now what? Do you realize that Muslims do not insist that the Quran was inspired by God as some suggest about the Bible, but that instead it is claimed to be the word for word, letter for letter dictation of Allah? Does Allah have a 7th century view of the cosmos or did Muhammad? Now what? How could you even ask that? Allah didn't write those verses, Muhammad did. One error, and the entire Quran topples like a house of cards. Don't blame me, as I didn't make that rule, Muslims did. Why do you think that Muslims are the most creative twisters of their scriptures out of any other religion? Because they have to be, because the standard is absolute perfection. a standard that was bound to fail the more and more it talked about things like the cosmos. It should have kept it's mouth shut about things it didn't know about, but it didn't. That was the fatal blunder. Now, if you talk to Muslims, it will be as though none of this conversation ever took place. They appear to have an uncanny ability to fool themselves or lie to themselves. Something I still haven't figured out yet. How do they do it? I just don't know.

I think he meant something more along the lines of "Now what for you?"

You seem to have an inherent hate for the quran and are bothered by people following it, so why go to a forum where the main focus is the quran? By all means, you are welcome here, but I am curious as to why you insist on putting yourself through misery. Why not just let us keep lying to ourselves in peace?

Arnold

Heaven could refer to the particle horizon of the observable universe.

So a human observation was split apart from the earth?

Arnold

I think he meant something more along the lines of "Now what for you?"

You seem to have an inherent hate for the quran and are bothered by people following it, so why go to a forum where the main focus is the quran? By all means, you are welcome here, but I am curious as to why you insist on putting yourself through misery. Why not just let us keep lying to ourselves in peace?

Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books. It's all a scam by Muslims which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs. So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose. But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time. This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.

explorer

Now what? Do you realize that Muslims do not insist that the Quran was inspired by God as some suggest about the Bible, but that instead it is claimed to be the word for word, letter for letter dictation of Allah? Does Allah have a 7th century view of the cosmos or did Muhammad? Now what? How could you even ask that? Allah didn't write those verses, Muhammad did. One error, and the entire Quran topples like a house of cards. Don't blame me, as I didn't make that rule, Muslims did. Why do you think that Muslims are the most creative twisters of their scriptures out of any other religion? Because they have to be, because the standard is absolute perfection. a standard that was bound to fail the more and more it talked about things like the cosmos. It should have kept it's mouth shut about things it didn't know about, but it didn't. That was the fatal blunder. Now, if you talk to Muslims, it will be as though none of this conversation ever took place. They appear to have an uncanny ability to fool themselves or lie to themselves. Something I still haven't figured out yet. How do they do it? I just don't know.

Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?

I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.

Peaceful_Mind

So a human observation was split apart from the earth?

It's not human observation, it's called particle horizon for a reason.

explorer

Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books. It's all a scam by Muslims which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs. So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose. But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time. This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.

Hello Arnold, I think you have answered by previous question "what are you doing here". We both posted the replies at the same time I guess.

The reason you get this feeling from muslims is that they think it is their duty to somehow explain each and every word of Quran. They dont know that there is a "dont know" category as well. If this is a book from God then they might not be able to explain each and every thing in it (jinn for example).

If one has seen the proof then one should accept the book as a whole with all its unkowns. (there is a difference between unknowns and fallacies; for me heaven and jinn are in unknown).

If someone then asks a question about an unkown area, a muslim could say "I dont know what God meant by that but I still believe in this book because I have seen the sign/proof". Unfortunately this is not the case with most muslims I have met.

Explorer

Peaceful_Mind

Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran

That's what we believe in. You can of course choose not to believe in it.

when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books.

That's your own subjective opinion, and we respectfully disagree with it.

It's all a scam by Muslims

Yes it's a conspiracy by Muslims to rule the world. )

which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs.

Others are more aggressive in defending thier vile and corrupted books. Do you condemn them for that?

So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose.

You have done no such thing. You probably copy some nonsense from anti-Islam sites and come paste them here. You are a propagandist here.

But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time.

Yea, how strange.

This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly.

I can only speak for myself here. I am not a scientist but I try to educate myself when it comes to Islam and science.

Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.

Just the typical hogwash we hear from anti-Islam propagandists.

Peaceful_Mind

If one has seen the proof then one should accept the book as a whole with all its unkowns. (there is a difference between unknowns and fallacies; for me heaven and jinn are in unknown).

Very true.

explorer

Hello Peaceful Mind. Although I am new to the forum as well but let me welcome you. welcome

Peaceful_Mind

Hello Peaceful Mind. Although I am new to the forum as well but let me welcome you. welcome

Thanks explorer for the warm welcome. welcome I'd like to know your opinion of my interpretation of heaven as the particle horizon (Boundary of the known universe).

Layth

Peace,

And here I thought Arnold was just confused in his strange interpretations of the Quran. Turns out Arnold was a hypocrite all this time pretending to be something he is not just to save` the poor lost Muslim souls and bring them to ? Christ?

No wonder you defend the US war machine so vehemently in your earlier posts...you are the same as them...you use lies and deceit and yet you dare lecture us on Islam and the Qur`an!

Here are some verses as a gift for you from the book you seem to hate

Chapter 2

And from the people are those who say We believe in God and in the Last Day, but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.
And if they are told Do not make evil in the land, they say But we are the reformers!
No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.
And if they are told Believe, as the people have believed, they say Shall we believe as the fools have believed? No, they are the fools but they do not know.
And if they come across those who have believed, they say We believe, and when they are alone with their devils they say We are with you, we were only mocking.
God mocks them, and leaves them prolonged in their transgression.
These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance; their trade did not profit them, nor were they guided.

Arnold

Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?

I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.

"ain't stopping me". ;D ;D So you are already on a determined course then, right? Looks like it to me. you're not speaking to me, you're just trying to play a trumpet. Allrightee then. Pretty funny.

Arnold

Peace,

And here I thought Arnold was just confused in his strange interpretations of the Quran. Turns out Arnold was a hypocrite all this time pretending to be something he is not just to save` the poor lost Muslim souls and bring them to ? Christ?

Where did I say that? Where did you imagine that? Please quote. Thanks. But I doubt you will, and I know why. Because it doesn't exist, and you are don't even understand the conversation. If you want to test what I'm saying to see if you are wrong or I am, then go back and find the word Christ in my posts.

No wonder you defend the US war machine so vehemently in your earlier posts...you are the same as them...you use lies and deceit and yet you dare lecture us on Islam and the Qur`an!

Quote the exact thing that I said, and tell me the lie. If it ends up being a lie, I can assure you that it was never meant to be one, as that has absolutely zero benefit to me. So go ahead. Present the supposed lie, tell me why you think it's a lie in clear, logical terms. I love new information, as long as it makes sense. I am not the government.

Here are some verses as a gift for you from the book you seem to hate

Chapter 2

And from the people are those who say We believe in God and in the Last Day, but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.
And if they are told Do not make evil in the land, they say But we are the reformers!
No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.
And if they are told Believe, as the people have believed, they say Shall we believe as the fools have believed? No, they are the fools but they do not know.
And if they come across those who have believed, they say We believe, and when they are alone with their devils they say We are with you, we were only mocking.
God mocks them, and leaves them prolonged in their transgression.
These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance; their trade did not profit them, nor were they guided.

Yes, that's right. Allah has put a seal on my heart. So how can I possibly see the true path? Well, maybe I can pray to Allah to release the seal, but then, that wouldn't be much of a seal now, would it? I mean, what would the purpose of the seal be if I could just simply reverse Allah's seal? Makes it ineffectual. Kind of like....why was it applied in the first place? And then, after the seal is applied, who is responsible for future actions, the person or Allah?

unknownuser

This has me confused. If the heaven and earth were split apart, as this verse appears to clearly say..

Verse clearly says "We split/ruptured them" (i.e. both together) not split one from another, for they were not formed yet.

al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?

http//lifeboat.com/images/big.bang.jpg

Arnold

Have you read this thread? Please do so. Thank you. Sorry, not to be rude, but I hate repeating. Thanks.