According to the quran, what is the lowest heaven?

Arnold

I think he meant something more along the lines of "Now what for you?"

You seem to have an inherent hate for the quran and are bothered by people following it, so why go to a forum where the main focus is the quran? By all means, you are welcome here, but I am curious as to why you insist on putting yourself through misery. Why not just let us keep lying to ourselves in peace?

Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books. It's all a scam by Muslims which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs. So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose. But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time. This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.

explorer

Now what? Do you realize that Muslims do not insist that the Quran was inspired by God as some suggest about the Bible, but that instead it is claimed to be the word for word, letter for letter dictation of Allah? Does Allah have a 7th century view of the cosmos or did Muhammad? Now what? How could you even ask that? Allah didn't write those verses, Muhammad did. One error, and the entire Quran topples like a house of cards. Don't blame me, as I didn't make that rule, Muslims did. Why do you think that Muslims are the most creative twisters of their scriptures out of any other religion? Because they have to be, because the standard is absolute perfection. a standard that was bound to fail the more and more it talked about things like the cosmos. It should have kept it's mouth shut about things it didn't know about, but it didn't. That was the fatal blunder. Now, if you talk to Muslims, it will be as though none of this conversation ever took place. They appear to have an uncanny ability to fool themselves or lie to themselves. Something I still haven't figured out yet. How do they do it? I just don't know.

Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?

I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.

Peaceful_Mind

So a human observation was split apart from the earth?

It's not human observation, it's called particle horizon for a reason.

explorer

Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books. It's all a scam by Muslims which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs. So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose. But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time. This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.

Hello Arnold, I think you have answered by previous question "what are you doing here". We both posted the replies at the same time I guess.

The reason you get this feeling from muslims is that they think it is their duty to somehow explain each and every word of Quran. They dont know that there is a "dont know" category as well. If this is a book from God then they might not be able to explain each and every thing in it (jinn for example).

If one has seen the proof then one should accept the book as a whole with all its unkowns. (there is a difference between unknowns and fallacies; for me heaven and jinn are in unknown).

If someone then asks a question about an unkown area, a muslim could say "I dont know what God meant by that but I still believe in this book because I have seen the sign/proof". Unfortunately this is not the case with most muslims I have met.

Explorer

Peaceful_Mind

Because I get sick and tired of having to listen about the perfect Quran

That's what we believe in. You can of course choose not to believe in it.

when it's obviously it's just as faulty as many other books.

That's your own subjective opinion, and we respectfully disagree with it.

It's all a scam by Muslims

Yes it's a conspiracy by Muslims to rule the world. )

which would be ignorable if they weren't so aggressive with their ideas and beliefs.

Others are more aggressive in defending thier vile and corrupted books. Do you condemn them for that?

So I find it annoying and I cure that annoyance by showing them the errors from their perfect book right in front of their nose.

You have done no such thing. You probably copy some nonsense from anti-Islam sites and come paste them here. You are a propagandist here.

But of course, I've learned that the human mind is quite capable of lying to itself if it needs to, although I haven't quite figured out how this is done, as it doesn't seem possible to lie to oneself to me, and yet, I see it all of the time.

Yea, how strange.

This thread will simple be shut out of people's minds. And yet, this is the free your mind forum? Hardly.

I can only speak for myself here. I am not a scientist but I try to educate myself when it comes to Islam and science.

Hardly. I just honestly don't think that's possible for a Muslim as Islam is the antithesis of freedom and free thought.

Just the typical hogwash we hear from anti-Islam propagandists.

Peaceful_Mind

If one has seen the proof then one should accept the book as a whole with all its unkowns. (there is a difference between unknowns and fallacies; for me heaven and jinn are in unknown).

Very true.

explorer

Hello Peaceful Mind. Although I am new to the forum as well but let me welcome you. welcome

Peaceful_Mind

Hello Peaceful Mind. Although I am new to the forum as well but let me welcome you. welcome

Thanks explorer for the warm welcome. welcome I'd like to know your opinion of my interpretation of heaven as the particle horizon (Boundary of the known universe).

Layth

Peace,

And here I thought Arnold was just confused in his strange interpretations of the Quran. Turns out Arnold was a hypocrite all this time pretending to be something he is not just to save` the poor lost Muslim souls and bring them to ? Christ?

No wonder you defend the US war machine so vehemently in your earlier posts...you are the same as them...you use lies and deceit and yet you dare lecture us on Islam and the Qur`an!

Here are some verses as a gift for you from the book you seem to hate

Chapter 2

And from the people are those who say We believe in God and in the Last Day, but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.
And if they are told Do not make evil in the land, they say But we are the reformers!
No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.
And if they are told Believe, as the people have believed, they say Shall we believe as the fools have believed? No, they are the fools but they do not know.
And if they come across those who have believed, they say We believe, and when they are alone with their devils they say We are with you, we were only mocking.
God mocks them, and leaves them prolonged in their transgression.
These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance; their trade did not profit them, nor were they guided.

Arnold

Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?

I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.

"ain't stopping me". ;D ;D So you are already on a determined course then, right? Looks like it to me. you're not speaking to me, you're just trying to play a trumpet. Allrightee then. Pretty funny.

Arnold

Peace,

And here I thought Arnold was just confused in his strange interpretations of the Quran. Turns out Arnold was a hypocrite all this time pretending to be something he is not just to save` the poor lost Muslim souls and bring them to ? Christ?

Where did I say that? Where did you imagine that? Please quote. Thanks. But I doubt you will, and I know why. Because it doesn't exist, and you are don't even understand the conversation. If you want to test what I'm saying to see if you are wrong or I am, then go back and find the word Christ in my posts.

No wonder you defend the US war machine so vehemently in your earlier posts...you are the same as them...you use lies and deceit and yet you dare lecture us on Islam and the Qur`an!

Quote the exact thing that I said, and tell me the lie. If it ends up being a lie, I can assure you that it was never meant to be one, as that has absolutely zero benefit to me. So go ahead. Present the supposed lie, tell me why you think it's a lie in clear, logical terms. I love new information, as long as it makes sense. I am not the government.

Here are some verses as a gift for you from the book you seem to hate

Chapter 2

And from the people are those who say We believe in God and in the Last Day, but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied.
And if they are told Do not make evil in the land, they say But we are the reformers!
No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.
And if they are told Believe, as the people have believed, they say Shall we believe as the fools have believed? No, they are the fools but they do not know.
And if they come across those who have believed, they say We believe, and when they are alone with their devils they say We are with you, we were only mocking.
God mocks them, and leaves them prolonged in their transgression.
These are the ones who have purchased straying for guidance; their trade did not profit them, nor were they guided.

Yes, that's right. Allah has put a seal on my heart. So how can I possibly see the true path? Well, maybe I can pray to Allah to release the seal, but then, that wouldn't be much of a seal now, would it? I mean, what would the purpose of the seal be if I could just simply reverse Allah's seal? Makes it ineffectual. Kind of like....why was it applied in the first place? And then, after the seal is applied, who is responsible for future actions, the person or Allah?

unknownuser

This has me confused. If the heaven and earth were split apart, as this verse appears to clearly say..

Verse clearly says "We split/ruptured them" (i.e. both together) not split one from another, for they were not formed yet.

al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?

http//lifeboat.com/images/big.bang.jpg

Arnold

Have you read this thread? Please do so. Thank you. Sorry, not to be rude, but I hate repeating. Thanks.

unknownuser

al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?
How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).

The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.

Arnold

Verse clearly says "We split/ruptured them" (i.e. both together) not split one from another, for they were not formed yet.

What does asunder mean? It means into separate things.

al-Anbiya' (The Prophets) 2130

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
Literal Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined, so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?

What does it mean when it says they were joined and then split? Can you be specific? In fact, I would like you to be very specific if you can. Afterall, you're the guy who posted it, right? So you must have some very specific reason and understanding for doing so, that you can share in a clear and specific way.

unknownuser

How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).

The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.

Can you deny the latter part of the verse? No.

As for the first part, if it's like English, there is a difference between "see/recognize" and "witness/observe directly".

Arnold

Arnold, I see what you are saying. My next obvious question is if you are convinced then what are you doing in this forum? Are you attempting to prove to the Quranites that this book is not written by a God?

Sure.

I have to be honest with you. I see dozens of things in the book that keeps me going; impossible for a human to write. Yet I see problems as well like paranormals. I will reach a final verdict once I complete the whole book. The issues where word games are involved (heavens, jinns etc) and where there are too many unknowns in the equations, ain't stopping me.

Look, what you don't understand is that this book is completely useless unless Muslims admit that it is not the letter for letter dictation of God. Then, maybe I could reconsider it, and it could be considered along the same way as other religious texts are considered. But you don't understand. You will never get this admission from Muslims, because if the Quran isn't the letter for letter dictation of Allah, then there isn't much left to the religion after that. This is the way they have set it up, not me. And I feel that this is true. For while Muslims boast of the supposed superior logic and common sense behind it, the writings are actually spiritually bankrupt and conflict with the teachings of Jesus and other mystics in ways that the author (Muhammad) didn't understand. Muhammad appeared to be a man about a sense of justice that he felt, without any understanding of deeper meanings of spirituality and what past prophets were talking about.

unknownuser

Have you read this thread? Please do so. Thank you. Sorry, not to be rude, but I hate repeating. Thanks.

Name Arnold
Posts 57 (57 per day)
Position Beginner/Inquirer
Date Registered Yesterday at 070654 AM
Last Active Today at 064107 PM

Really, you hate repeating; with 57 posts/day?

Drama queens, saviors, rescuers, feigners and attention-seekers
http//www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm

What does asunder mean? It means into separate things.

What does it mean when it says they were joined and then split? Can you be specific? In fact, I would like you to be very specific if you can. Afterall, you're the guy who posted it, right? So you must have some very specific reason and understanding for doing so, that you can share in a clear and specific way.

http//www.quran-islam.org/universe.htm

How is it possible for the disbelievers to witness Big Bang when Muhammad, as allegedly claimed, was the only one secretly inspired by his god to claim as such (and that too by the Muslims of today)? The verse may be (possibly) pointing to a space/location on ground/land (fil ard) where the "prophets (We)" (Abraham, Ishmail, Issac, Hagar, Sarah, etc.) ruptured it to gush out water for the living/thirsty. Besides, this story is mentioned in the Torah, Bible and as well as the ahadith. (Read the story of Abraham and his family).

The image you provided was not available back then and it seems to be that of sun. Anyhow, the Big Bang is only a theory and Muslim apologists are the first to jump right into their ancient holy book to quickly claim any scientific findings evolved from modern science. Harun Yahya's website is full of such manipulated/twisted nonsense.

http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm

SURAH 21 Al-Anbiy?

"(Out of their sheer ignorance some people take natural phenomena as deities or divinities. This is despite the fact the entire continuum of the universe has been created by Allah and remains fervently in action according to His given programme. At present various phenomena in the universe appear to them as functioning separately from one another, but) Do they not seriously understand that in the initial stages of creation all of them were one mass which We then parted, so that the various celestial bodies started floating in their own orbits (2133; 3640). (Take for example the planet earth. In its initial stages it separated from the original mass, just like a stone thrown out from a catapult ~ 7930.) Later (when the earth became ready to bear or produce living things) We started life from water. (All living things are created from a mixture of water ~ 2445. And over this fountain of life Allah has kept His own control ~ 117.)

It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."

peace

Jack

Btw Genteel you should do the appropriate research before you make ridiculous statements. The big bang theory has physical evidence to back it up and is universally accepted among physicists.

unknownuser

http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_021.htm

It is strange that even after all this explanation, they do not believe that only Allah wields absolute sovereignty over everything in the universe."
And it is even stranger that the idiot who cherry-picked certain verses out of the Quran in that link above to disgrace and demean others didn't for once realize that his very own man-made god promises to keep his slaves and fellowship intact from straying away, yet he breaks his godly promise to shun the very slaves and fellowship as he so wills and subjects them to horrendous punishments akin to an evil. This man-made god is beyond recognition and himself does not know what the heck he is talking about. You see, even an evil person is merciful to his own family, relatives and close friends when it comes to forced submissions.